Depraved wrote: » yeah but destroyed has a different meaning here. the item will be unusable temporarily. you can repair it and make it useable using a portion of the materials needed to craft the item. what I don't know is if you will have to start enchanting from 0 again or not, once you repair it
Depraved wrote: » akabear wrote: » Should AoC follow a similar route to the early L2 approach to over-enchanting, I cannot see it being a material sink. L2 enchanting quickly became a well-understood risk and those adverse to risk would only enchant as far as within their bounds.. up to +3 was 100%.. +4 was 30% fail chance either ever-increasing risk. Those that did achieve the +5 to +15 stood out with their blue glowing weapons and were admired and those with +16 (or whatever it was) were incredibly rare and very, very powerful!.. There was always talk of enchant exploiting but never knew.. but those that did not play the market and/or were not part of the select few clans that farmed the bosses that dropped the most elite and expensive gear were leagues apart in personal wealth.. so perhaps those clans did achieve it legitimately.. Hope to see a system that enables high achievements and high risk to achieve rarity and uniqueness as well as yield power. eh I hope not. u could swipe on the NC store and geet a +10 weapon for no effort, and +10 to +16 was not that hard if you just kept swiping. ashes wont have p2w. i like the current approach. its the same as l2 except your weapon never gets destroyed (you never completely lose it), you just have to repair it. so as long as you keep getting mats, you will eventually enchant your weapon high enough.
akabear wrote: » Should AoC follow a similar route to the early L2 approach to over-enchanting, I cannot see it being a material sink. L2 enchanting quickly became a well-understood risk and those adverse to risk would only enchant as far as within their bounds.. up to +3 was 100%.. +4 was 30% fail chance either ever-increasing risk. Those that did achieve the +5 to +15 stood out with their blue glowing weapons and were admired and those with +16 (or whatever it was) were incredibly rare and very, very powerful!.. There was always talk of enchant exploiting but never knew.. but those that did not play the market and/or were not part of the select few clans that farmed the bosses that dropped the most elite and expensive gear were leagues apart in personal wealth.. so perhaps those clans did achieve it legitimately.. Hope to see a system that enables high achievements and high risk to achieve rarity and uniqueness as well as yield power.
JamesSunderland wrote: » Depraved wrote: » yeah but destroyed has a different meaning here. the item will be unusable temporarily. you can repair it and make it useable using a portion of the materials needed to craft the item. what I don't know is if you will have to start enchanting from 0 again or not, once you repair it The thing is, that starts coming down to interpretation, depending on how many material are required to remove the "disabled" "destroyed" status of the weapon and if the "disabling" "destruction" of the weapon resets its enchant, or lowers it back to the safe enchant, or goes back by a single digit, does it retain it's enchanting level?. Without those informations it's really hard to predict how harsh Ashes OE destruction will be, for example i would consider Ashes' OE Destruction harsher than Lineage 2's OE Destruction if it resets the weapon to +0 and costs more than ~10% of the original materials required to craft it to repair it because Lineage 2's destruction basically gives you a full refund of the weapon destroyed in expensive crystals most of the time. In the end it doesn't matter to me, as long as it's RNG factor remains, my gambling desires will be met.
akabear wrote: » Depraved wrote: » akabear wrote: » Should AoC follow a similar route to the early L2 approach to over-enchanting, I cannot see it being a material sink. L2 enchanting quickly became a well-understood risk and those adverse to risk would only enchant as far as within their bounds.. up to +3 was 100%.. +4 was 30% fail chance either ever-increasing risk. Those that did achieve the +5 to +15 stood out with their blue glowing weapons and were admired and those with +16 (or whatever it was) were incredibly rare and very, very powerful!.. There was always talk of enchant exploiting but never knew.. but those that did not play the market and/or were not part of the select few clans that farmed the bosses that dropped the most elite and expensive gear were leagues apart in personal wealth.. so perhaps those clans did achieve it legitimately.. Hope to see a system that enables high achievements and high risk to achieve rarity and uniqueness as well as yield power. eh I hope not. u could swipe on the NC store and geet a +10 weapon for no effort, and +10 to +16 was not that hard if you just kept swiping. ashes wont have p2w. i like the current approach. its the same as l2 except your weapon never gets destroyed (you never completely lose it), you just have to repair it. so as long as you keep getting mats, you will eventually enchant your weapon high enough. Not comparing apples with apples.. referring to early L2 where there was subscription only. Considering on a server with a population of 2-3k, there was only 1 or maybe 2 glowing red weapons.. I think the difficulty to obtain was well balanced. Weapon never gets destroyed takes away risk and everyone eventually capable of getting one defeats having rarity.
Depraved wrote: » it feels really shitty to die to someone and there's nothing you can really do about it, just because that person "won the lottery" even if you are the better player, your superior tactics get destroyed by f1 spam in a tab targetted game if you don't have gear. if it was a pure action game, things would be different. while you only need to get lucky once with your weapon, i need to get lucky on all 8 pieces of armor and 5 pieces of jewelry to mitigate your damage.
Depraved wrote: » unfortunately, people will quit when a few people get a super high over enchanted weapon, because most people prefer to give up, rather than put in the effort and improve. if you make over enchanting somewhat time and material consuming, but not super rng difficult, people will still get rewarded with power on pve, without screwing up pvp and will have content and things to do in the game.
NiKr wrote: » So yes, it is about how the game itself is made, but tab targetness doesn't have as much of an impact as you might think. Your enemy might have a +16 bow, but you have ultimate evasion and he literally can't hit you.
Azherae wrote: » NiKr - BDO does not prove it, because BDO is not a truly action game.
Azherae wrote: » And as always, I'll remind that the issue people seem to have with OE RNG is 'losing progress', not 'RNG'. Maybe that's me interpreting the data poorly/with bias, but I still haven't actually full-parsed that thread yet.
Azherae wrote: » Sure this is still power scaling/design related, but basically, if you have a +16 weapon and it doesn't hit 'Ultimate Evasion' sets, and those are NOT 'full sets of +15 evasion gear', I doubt that situation would last long. My point is that you shouldn't consider that part of 'skill', that's part of balance. The Devs are directly controlling who wins there, the player who chooses to make the Evasion build is demonstrating only the skill of 'figuring out which way the Devs made them win' and the complaint will just be on the other side. Source: BDO. Again.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » NiKr - BDO does not prove it, because BDO is not a truly action game. Of course it fucking isn't God damn that game. But you've said before that you, theoretically, can outdodge super high lvl mobs even if you don't have the gear. Doesn't that make it action? Or is pvp way different from pve and there's always at least one ability that will always hit? Azherae wrote: » And as always, I'll remind that the issue people seem to have with OE RNG is 'losing progress', not 'RNG'. Maybe that's me interpreting the data poorly/with bias, but I still haven't actually full-parsed that thread yet. Maybe that is the case, but as James pointed out, L2 returned a pretty big chunk of your progress to you. If OE methods are super expensive and a failed OE just removes all the enchant stages - you've lost progress. And I sure as hell hope Ashes doesn't have a "you failed OE? Oh, don't worry little baby nothing has changed, so just keep OEing". Azherae wrote: » Sure this is still power scaling/design related, but basically, if you have a +16 weapon and it doesn't hit 'Ultimate Evasion' sets, and those are NOT 'full sets of +15 evasion gear', I doubt that situation would last long. My point is that you shouldn't consider that part of 'skill', that's part of balance. The Devs are directly controlling who wins there, the player who chooses to make the Evasion build is demonstrating only the skill of 'figuring out which way the Devs made them win' and the complaint will just be on the other side. Source: BDO. Again. This is more about L2's very particular design. I wasn't talking about builds cause L2's gear didn't really have "builds". A few sets of gear gave you a tiiiiny bit of evasion but that's not enough to overcome the accuracy of an archer. I was talking about this UE Most of the time, at full buff, archers wouldn't have enough space for accuracy buffs, but their default one would be roughly enough to hit dagger classes. But with this, pretty much 99% of their attacks would miss. I've played on a private server with a shitton of whales with +50 weapons (private server "feature") and quite often dagger classes would be the ones to defeat those kinds of players even w/o a super OEd weapon. Obviously this wasn't a skill that was available to everyone, but I was just saying that even tab target games have ways of defeating people who appear to be too powerful. And yes, if we're talking skill-wise, action games would provide even more ways of defeating those players, but if even BDO isn't action enough to prevent this - I dunno what kind of game would. Maybe NW allows lvl1 players to kill max lvl ones (same difference in power lvls)?
Veeshan wrote: » I think the best solution is to have gear be repaired by using crafted gear of the same tier level) that way to repair a raid drop plate chestpiece of max level items you would need to buy a max level plate chestpiece to use as it catalyse to repair it with you would be able t=o use the basic max level equipment for this so there be constant demand for the easier to craft items for crafters aswell to cycle though. With a 10k server population that's a lot of armor that will need to be made on a regular basis. What's going to happen is lots of people running around with broken gear because there's not enough mats to make all the armor needed to keep it maintained. We will also have to pay an astronomical amount of gold for armor due to being so scarce. Your solution sounds like a nightmare. Personally I don't want my main focus to be keeping my gear maintained so you can sell them like hotcakes.
DrPlague wrote: » With a 10k server population that's a lot of armor that will need to be made on a regular basis. What's going to happen is lots of people running around with broken gear because there's not enough mats to make all the armor needed to keep it maintained. We will also have to pay an astronomical amount of gold for armor due to being so scarce. Your solution sounds like a nightmare. Personally I don't want my main focus to be keeping my gear maintained so you can sell them like hotcakes.
NiKr wrote: » Depraved wrote: » it feels really shitty to die to someone and there's nothing you can really do about it, just because that person "won the lottery" even if you are the better player, your superior tactics get destroyed by f1 spam in a tab targetted game if you don't have gear. if it was a pure action game, things would be different. while you only need to get lucky once with your weapon, i need to get lucky on all 8 pieces of armor and 5 pieces of jewelry to mitigate your damage. I think BDO proves that even an as purely action game as BDO is can still have power scaling design that fucks the balance completely. So yes, it is about how the game itself is made, but tab targetness doesn't have as much of an impact as you might think. Your enemy might have a +16 bow, but you have ultimate evasion and he literally can't hit you. Or your enemy might have a +16 magic mace, but you're a tank with a magic mirror and no jewelry, so the mage dies before you just from hitting you. There are ways of winning against someone who has better gear, even in tab games.
Depraved wrote: » unfortunately, people will quit when a few people get a super high over enchanted weapon, because most people prefer to give up, rather than put in the effort and improve. if you make over enchanting somewhat time and material consuming, but not super rng difficult, people will still get rewarded with power on pve, without screwing up pvp and will have content and things to do in the game. People will always quit. Some people would quit just on principle of a single mechanic that they don't like (Dygz probably being the brightest example of that on this forum). Even if you tell people "yes, there's rng in OEing, but the entire OE path at max lvl will only give 5% power to the player so you REALLY DON'T NEED IT" - people will still be complaining about "muh rng" and "waaaah, those people got lucky and they're now stronger than me". And if you tie OE progression purely to time - you're literally cutting thousands of people out of that progression path. And if it's not only time, but boss/mob farming as well - you're cutting out probably around 98-99% of players, because only the strongest ones will be able to kill bosses enough times to loot what they need and they'll also have the money to buy out any other item. I doubt that a super lucky casual player who manages to loot some super rare item would care to keep it if a big rich boi from the strongest guild gives the casual player months-worth of hardcore grinding for that item. And just as you pointed out, Ashes won't have a single viable weapon or a single set, so if a casual tank loots some mega rare spellbook - I doubt he'd go "oh damn, I'd better rebuild my entire character just to fit this spellbook's gameplay".TL;DR the rich will always be more powerful. Someone will always leave because of that. It all comes down to how Intrepid design their powerlvl scaling.
Depraved wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Depraved wrote: » it feels really shitty to die to someone and there's nothing you can really do about it, just because that person "won the lottery" even if you are the better player, your superior tactics get destroyed by f1 spam in a tab targetted game if you don't have gear. if it was a pure action game, things would be different. while you only need to get lucky once with your weapon, i need to get lucky on all 8 pieces of armor and 5 pieces of jewelry to mitigate your damage. I think BDO proves that even an as purely action game as BDO is can still have power scaling design that fucks the balance completely. So yes, it is about how the game itself is made, but tab targetness doesn't have as much of an impact as you might think. Your enemy might have a +16 bow, but you have ultimate evasion and he literally can't hit you. Or your enemy might have a +16 magic mace, but you're a tank with a magic mirror and no jewelry, so the mage dies before you just from hitting you. There are ways of winning against someone who has better gear, even in tab games. yeah you know how people beat daggers with UE? they just use stuns, which land on you even if the damage doesn't, and they just stop attacking you to not remove the stun and then stun you again until UE is over, unless a mage hits u, which is fine because the stun doesn't get removed (which sucks but hey its l2)..then its on 10 mins cd and you get 1 shotted. also remember ue is 40% chance of dodging skills..not 100% I don't remember if tanks reflect was 100%, but hey it was still a high chance for the mage to kill himself...or, they would just run and not attack you for 10 seconds? a mage with a +10 weapon beats a tank with a +0 weapon. a tank with a +10 weapon beats a mage with a +10 weapon have u ever seen that video of a gladi called Giccobe murdering an entire guild during a siege by pressing only 1 button over and over to cast sonic storm because he had a +16 duals with 300 element? and his TSS doing 16k damage, that's as much as a dagger critstab without the downsides of being a dagger that beats the skill element of the game. he clicks you and you die, nothing you can do. your guild would need to make +16 armor for everybody to beat 1 person with a +16 weapon. and you cant focus him down because he had 20k hp and 10k cp plus ol + bp plus other people are attacking you or your healers so you have to deal with them as well. in tab targeting games, aside from a few ultimate skills, your strategy gets beaten down by f1 spam. I'm not saying OE in AOC should be easy and people shouldn't be rewarded for it, but not to the point of removing every element of strategy just because you got lucky on a dice roll. Depraved wrote: » unfortunately, people will quit when a few people get a super high over enchanted weapon, because most people prefer to give up, rather than put in the effort and improve. if you make over enchanting somewhat time and material consuming, but not super rng difficult, people will still get rewarded with power on pve, without screwing up pvp and will have content and things to do in the game. People will always quit. Some people would quit just on principle of a single mechanic that they don't like (Dygz probably being the brightest example of that on this forum). Even if you tell people "yes, there's rng in OEing, but the entire OE path at max lvl will only give 5% power to the player so you REALLY DON'T NEED IT" - people will still be complaining about "muh rng" and "waaaah, those people got lucky and they're now stronger than me". And if you tie OE progression purely to time - you're literally cutting thousands of people out of that progression path. And if it's not only time, but boss/mob farming as well - you're cutting out probably around 98-99% of players, because only the strongest ones will be able to kill bosses enough times to loot what they need and they'll also have the money to buy out any other item. I doubt that a super lucky casual player who manages to loot some super rare item would care to keep it if a big rich boi from the strongest guild gives the casual player months-worth of hardcore grinding for that item. And just as you pointed out, Ashes won't have a single viable weapon or a single set, so if a casual tank loots some mega rare spellbook - I doubt he'd go "oh damn, I'd better rebuild my entire character just to fit this spellbook's gameplay".TL;DR the rich will always be more powerful. Someone will always leave because of that. It all comes down to how Intrepid design their powerlvl scaling. balance time and RNG duh
Depraved wrote: » yeah you know how people beat daggers with UE? they just use stuns, which land on you even if the damage doesn't, and they just stop attacking you to not remove the stun and then stun you again until UE is over, unless a mage hits u, which is fine because the stun doesn't get removed (which sucks but hey its l2)..then its on 10 mins cd and you get 1 shotted. also remember ue is 40% chance of dodging skills..not 100%
Depraved wrote: » I don't remember if tanks reflect was 100%, but hey it was still a high chance for the mage to kill himself...or, they would just run and not attack you for 10 seconds? a mage with a +10 weapon beats a tank with a +0 weapon. a tank with a +10 weapon beats a mage with a +10 weapon
Depraved wrote: » have u ever seen that video of a gladi called Giccobe murdering an entire guild during a siege by pressing only 1 button over and over to cast sonic storm because he had a +16 duals with 300 element? and his TSS doing 16k damage, that's as much as a dagger critstab without the downsides of being a dagger that beats the skill element of the game. he clicks you and you die, nothing you can do. your guild would need to make +16 armor for everybody to beat 1 person with a +16 weapon. and you cant focus him down because he had 20k hp and 10k cp plus ol + bp plus other people are attacking you or your healers so you have to deal with them as well.
Azherae wrote: » My point is (mostly NiKr), technically I'm contributing MORE to the degrading of gear supply on the server (or would be, but this is BDO, so I'm actually working around that with barely any effort) because the 'just delevel' makes me MORE WILLING to just go 'eh I can go without 40% of my power for a while, that might even be a little challenging, but if I SUCCEED wow that will be nice, GO DICE ROLL! But I didn't do it for the Accessories. Because I can lose those. And they'll just be gone. That's the psych profile you're dealing with. I'll randomly tap even my mainhand from TET back down to PRI on a whim, but my BELT? Nah, I might LOSE that.
Azherae wrote: » Depraved wrote: » NiKr wrote: » Depraved wrote: » it feels really shitty to die to someone and there's nothing you can really do about it, just because that person "won the lottery" even if you are the better player, your superior tactics get destroyed by f1 spam in a tab targetted game if you don't have gear. if it was a pure action game, things would be different. while you only need to get lucky once with your weapon, i need to get lucky on all 8 pieces of armor and 5 pieces of jewelry to mitigate your damage. I think BDO proves that even an as purely action game as BDO is can still have power scaling design that fucks the balance completely. So yes, it is about how the game itself is made, but tab targetness doesn't have as much of an impact as you might think. Your enemy might have a +16 bow, but you have ultimate evasion and he literally can't hit you. Or your enemy might have a +16 magic mace, but you're a tank with a magic mirror and no jewelry, so the mage dies before you just from hitting you. There are ways of winning against someone who has better gear, even in tab games. yeah you know how people beat daggers with UE? they just use stuns, which land on you even if the damage doesn't, and they just stop attacking you to not remove the stun and then stun you again until UE is over, unless a mage hits u, which is fine because the stun doesn't get removed (which sucks but hey its l2)..then its on 10 mins cd and you get 1 shotted. also remember ue is 40% chance of dodging skills..not 100% I don't remember if tanks reflect was 100%, but hey it was still a high chance for the mage to kill himself...or, they would just run and not attack you for 10 seconds? a mage with a +10 weapon beats a tank with a +0 weapon. a tank with a +10 weapon beats a mage with a +10 weapon have u ever seen that video of a gladi called Giccobe murdering an entire guild during a siege by pressing only 1 button over and over to cast sonic storm because he had a +16 duals with 300 element? and his TSS doing 16k damage, that's as much as a dagger critstab without the downsides of being a dagger that beats the skill element of the game. he clicks you and you die, nothing you can do. your guild would need to make +16 armor for everybody to beat 1 person with a +16 weapon. and you cant focus him down because he had 20k hp and 10k cp plus ol + bp plus other people are attacking you or your healers so you have to deal with them as well. in tab targeting games, aside from a few ultimate skills, your strategy gets beaten down by f1 spam. I'm not saying OE in AOC should be easy and people shouldn't be rewarded for it, but not to the point of removing every element of strategy just because you got lucky on a dice roll. Depraved wrote: » unfortunately, people will quit when a few people get a super high over enchanted weapon, because most people prefer to give up, rather than put in the effort and improve. if you make over enchanting somewhat time and material consuming, but not super rng difficult, people will still get rewarded with power on pve, without screwing up pvp and will have content and things to do in the game. People will always quit. Some people would quit just on principle of a single mechanic that they don't like (Dygz probably being the brightest example of that on this forum). Even if you tell people "yes, there's rng in OEing, but the entire OE path at max lvl will only give 5% power to the player so you REALLY DON'T NEED IT" - people will still be complaining about "muh rng" and "waaaah, those people got lucky and they're now stronger than me". And if you tie OE progression purely to time - you're literally cutting thousands of people out of that progression path. And if it's not only time, but boss/mob farming as well - you're cutting out probably around 98-99% of players, because only the strongest ones will be able to kill bosses enough times to loot what they need and they'll also have the money to buy out any other item. I doubt that a super lucky casual player who manages to loot some super rare item would care to keep it if a big rich boi from the strongest guild gives the casual player months-worth of hardcore grinding for that item. And just as you pointed out, Ashes won't have a single viable weapon or a single set, so if a casual tank loots some mega rare spellbook - I doubt he'd go "oh damn, I'd better rebuild my entire character just to fit this spellbook's gameplay".TL;DR the rich will always be more powerful. Someone will always leave because of that. It all comes down to how Intrepid design their powerlvl scaling. balance time and RNG duh Even so, there's still a big difference. Yesterday in BDO (probably subconsciously spurred by this forum) I just enchanted everything I have on my Kuno on a whim with minimal backups. Nuked it all for no real reward, ofc, because that's how I roll. So now I'm at like... 60% of the power level from before, and most of that is from 'stuff they gave me for doing Season stuff' and my PEN Shoes. But the point is, I could 'on a whim' do that BECAUSE I don't lose the whole item. I 'downgrade'. It wasn't necessarily SMART to do this without backups, but if I wanted to do it WITH backups... I'd need to make the backups. Who has time for that? My point is (mostly @NiKr), technically I'm contributing MORE to the degrading of gear supply on the server (or would be, but this is BDO, so I'm actually working around that with barely any effort) because the 'just delevel' makes me MORE WILLING to just go 'eh I can go without 40% of my power for a while, that might even be a little challenging, but if I SUCCEED wow that will be nice, GO DICE ROLL! But I didn't do it for the Accessories. Because I can lose those. And they'll just be gone. That's the psych profile you're dealing with. I'll randomly tap even my mainhand from TET back down to PRI on a whim, but my BELT? Nah, I might LOSE that.
Azherae wrote: » "The game keeps adding guaranteed methods of getting such gear, even for gear that is definitely not necessary to do this for which could be left alone."
Azherae wrote: » You can decide what that 'means' to you. I found it interesting back then. Their trajectory hasn't changed much since.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » "The game keeps adding guaranteed methods of getting such gear, even for gear that is definitely not necessary to do this for which could be left alone." So kinda what L2 did and kinda what I suggested for AoC's gear progression over the years. Add newer stuff that's hard to get, but make the older stuff easier to get and/or upgrade higher. Azherae wrote: » You can decide what that 'means' to you. I found it interesting back then. Their trajectory hasn't changed much since. I sadly couldn't play on the EU servers back in L2's heydays, but that video I posted from a siege was on EU servers, and my argument with that video was "see, people don't OE as much", so what's more likely is just that EU people have always been this way and it's the other cultures that like to gamble more. Koreans seem to be way closer to CIS people, cause we both love our OEd gear that we poured our time/money into. Dunno about the US, but what Neurath said seems to imply that they're the more gambling type too. So w/o any concrete info it does seem that general trends haven't changed all that much. And the recent popularity of gacha games and lootboxes (within general masses that is) does seem to imply that majority isn't necessarily super opposed to RNG, and it's mainly the hardcore gamers who see through all that bullshit (and apparently EU is full of those people ).
Azherae wrote: » Also, to be clear, and the reason I am suspicious of your conclusion, is that they don't usually add new stuff that is 'harder to get'. They add Easier or 'Just given to you'. Sometimes this is 'baseline' for the usual reason, but quite often, it's not (or it is establishing a new baseline).
Azherae wrote: » tl;dr Ashes sounds to me like it is trying to be too overall competitive to be compatible with RNG OE Item Destruction and not be an even more niche game. But recent decisions seem to be funneling the 'competitive' parts of it into particular spaces, so maybe not.
NiKr wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Also, to be clear, and the reason I am suspicious of your conclusion, is that they don't usually add new stuff that is 'harder to get'. They add Easier or 'Just given to you'. Sometimes this is 'baseline' for the usual reason, but quite often, it's not (or it is establishing a new baseline). Are the new Red items easy to get? You said that orange stuff could take months, so I assumed that Red would be at roughly the same point if not harder, cause it's supposed to be even better. Azherae wrote: » tl;dr Ashes sounds to me like it is trying to be too overall competitive to be compatible with RNG OE Item Destruction and not be an even more niche game. But recent decisions seem to be funneling the 'competitive' parts of it into particular spaces, so maybe not. At this point I don't even fucking know. Plans for corruption balancing seem to be really punishing, while more opt-in pvp areas are added (even if one of them is permanent). To me that feels like Steven saw the exact issues you explained and decided to change the design to help out those pvers to enjoy the game more. And with the majority of people hating rng, especially on the context of lost progress - I'm almost sure that Intrepid will go down a gentler route of OEing. I'm also fairly sure that this majority will only become bigger with time, because once Alpha2 comes online there's gonna be a shitton of new people seeing the game, hearing people like Asmon pushing the "comfortable" design, and will definitely start yelling at Intrepid to change things for the easier/more-pve-friendly. And at this point my pessimism is just hoping that owpvp won't become fully opt-in
