novercalis wrote: » our daily life is RPG, our daily life is a time sink. Time sink is good. I want to escape and be immersed from my realities. You want to become a pirate - well let's look at One piece. Luffy wants to be the king of the pirates... 1050 episides later, he still isnt the king of pirates yet... 1050 episodes.. tinksinks... training, getting friends, making allies, learning, growing, making mistakes, drawbacks and all... everything he has done has been a tinksink but not wasted time. RPG isnt - I want to be a pirate and go arggh and just pew pew pew people. Make a name, grind, get the best gear, learn the mechanics, the routes, etc. grinds, timesinks, slow paces is a good thing and ppl want to be immersed and escape as well into a fantasy land
KingDDD wrote: » None of those things will require you to be max level, but all of them will be balanced around you being max level. Tell me how farming ore in any MMO goes when a level 1 heads into a level capped area.
KingDDD wrote: » You can participate in politics, but unless bring something outside the game (money and or prestige) youll find yourself lacking the ability to have any sway.
KingDDD wrote: » Being able to make low level ships and dying instantly isn't gameplay. Again this does nothing but artificially limit me from ROLE PLAYING in the game. Why do you hate Role Playing so much in this RPG.
KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way.
NiKr wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » None of those things will require you to be max level, but all of them will be balanced around you being max level. Tell me how farming ore in any MMO goes when a level 1 heads into a level capped area. Do you work at Intrepid that you know that for sure? The Node system will populate locations with both low and high lvl mobs, so artisans will always be in danger, no matter if they're doing low lvl artisanry or high lvl one. And if you're having problems with that - go ask for help from the people who like the vertical lvling process. KingDDD wrote: » You can participate in politics, but unless bring something outside the game (money and or prestige) youll find yourself lacking the ability to have any sway. One of the biggest guilds in L2 was led by a mid-lvl GL crafter, exactly because he didn't have time to grind the lvls and instead just played politics. I've personally known several people that made huge fortunes just playing the market in L2, while being super low lvl. KingDDD wrote: » Being able to make low level ships and dying instantly isn't gameplay. Again this does nothing but artificially limit me from ROLE PLAYING in the game. Why do you hate Role Playing so much in this RPG. Again, if you want to circumvent the character progress - go play something like Sea of Thieves. And like I said, I'm sure there'll be low lvl pirates too, just not for long. And even outside of that, we don't know how exactly the open seas pvp will go down. There's a chance where all that you need to win is just a good ship and several people on it. And at that point, I'd assume you can do that with just a group of highly skilled players who make their own ships and then masterfully control them at sea.
Krakhun wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. Wow this is the wrong genre for you. You are looking for a sim game not an MMORPG.
KingDDD wrote: » Krakhun wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. Wow this is the wrong genre for you. You are looking for a sim game not an MMORPG. What does leveling have to do with Role Playing?
Dolyem wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Krakhun wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. Wow this is the wrong genre for you. You are looking for a sim game not an MMORPG. What does leveling have to do with Role Playing? In MMORPGs, one of the main tropes is progressing your character from being a weak and clueless novice to LEVELING up gradually to a master adventurer or even a "CHAMPION!" depending on the game design. Ashes is looking to be more along the lines of progressing to a master adventurer instead of some ultimate savior.
Wandering Mist wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Krakhun wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. Wow this is the wrong genre for you. You are looking for a sim game not an MMORPG. What does leveling have to do with Role Playing? In MMORPGs, one of the main tropes is progressing your character from being a weak and clueless novice to LEVELING up gradually to a master adventurer or even a "CHAMPION!" depending on the game design. Ashes is looking to be more along the lines of progressing to a master adventurer instead of some ultimate savior. Yes, character progression is very important in any RPG (including mmorpgs). However, does that progression need to involve mindlessly grinding mobs that take little to no effort to kill and just take huge amounts of time?
Krakhun wrote: » Wandering Mist wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Krakhun wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. Wow this is the wrong genre for you. You are looking for a sim game not an MMORPG. What does leveling have to do with Role Playing? In MMORPGs, one of the main tropes is progressing your character from being a weak and clueless novice to LEVELING up gradually to a master adventurer or even a "CHAMPION!" depending on the game design. Ashes is looking to be more along the lines of progressing to a master adventurer instead of some ultimate savior. Yes, character progression is very important in any RPG (including mmorpgs). However, does that progression need to involve mindlessly grinding mobs that take little to no effort to kill and just take huge amounts of time? You make it sound like killing mobs is the only way to level. Yes you can kill mobs, but you can also pvp, go dungeon diving, do quests, etc. Yes they all take time, but thats part of the fun and your character development.
KingDDD wrote: » If the low level stuff is worth the time to farm, it'll be gobbled up by high level players. As much as I enjoy asking other people for help that have zero incentive to help me, I think Id rather see content not restricted from me.
KingDDD wrote: » NiKr wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Having access to abilities that are necessary to complete content doesn't equate to completing that content. If an 8 man group is in a dungeon and a mob has a casted ability that puts significant strain on a healer limiting the ability to interrupt said cast because a member doesn't have access to their interrupt doesn't make for a fun dungeon. Its about limiting progress through player skill vs artificial barriers. Ok, and when that group masters their gameplay skill, what do they do next? If there's literally no progress in mobs (cause everyone is the same lvl), what do those people do now? And some of the more skilled people would hit that point almost immediately. Do you want a game with 0 character progress? This isn't a shooter where your avatar is a direct conduit of your irl skills. This is an rpg, where you must bring your in-game character on a journey, where it'll learn a ton of stuff and grows with that knowledge. And you either do that through lvl progression or through repetitive actions (which are still kinda "lvl progression"). If you dislike that kind of gameplay - you dislike rpgs. You have a new adventure in a new zone with new challenges and emergent ways to solve them. Character progress isn't limited to incremental statistical changes stemming from time investment. Acquiring the ability to make different character builds, both animation and gear-based cosmetics, cooperative and competitive politics, node building, animal husbandry, crafting, among many others. are all means of character progression and roleplaying beyond leveling. If RPG stands for Role Playing Game, why are you locking the RP behind a timesink?
NiKr wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Having access to abilities that are necessary to complete content doesn't equate to completing that content. If an 8 man group is in a dungeon and a mob has a casted ability that puts significant strain on a healer limiting the ability to interrupt said cast because a member doesn't have access to their interrupt doesn't make for a fun dungeon. Its about limiting progress through player skill vs artificial barriers. Ok, and when that group masters their gameplay skill, what do they do next? If there's literally no progress in mobs (cause everyone is the same lvl), what do those people do now? And some of the more skilled people would hit that point almost immediately. Do you want a game with 0 character progress? This isn't a shooter where your avatar is a direct conduit of your irl skills. This is an rpg, where you must bring your in-game character on a journey, where it'll learn a ton of stuff and grows with that knowledge. And you either do that through lvl progression or through repetitive actions (which are still kinda "lvl progression"). If you dislike that kind of gameplay - you dislike rpgs.
KingDDD wrote: » Having access to abilities that are necessary to complete content doesn't equate to completing that content. If an 8 man group is in a dungeon and a mob has a casted ability that puts significant strain on a healer limiting the ability to interrupt said cast because a member doesn't have access to their interrupt doesn't make for a fun dungeon. Its about limiting progress through player skill vs artificial barriers.
KingDDD wrote: » novercalis wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. currently it's 45 days casual grinding avg to hit max level, which is too short imo. I hope they extend it. Pacing matters - the slower things are, the significance things begins to feel. Milestones should feel like miles, not inches. Players or young gamers have become impatience and addicted to constant dopamine - slow down and appreciate the smaller things in life or in-game life. It's not a race, it's a marathon. It's not reach the end, nor should there be an end - it's the journey along the way. If a potential runner started said marathon without legs and had to knit 45 days worth of sweaters to get your prosthetic legs would anyone run said marathon? The fun in an MMO is exploring new environments with a team of people who all have specific roles. NiKr wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » For example, I want to play a tank. What level ranges can I play the game in the role I desire? Can I play with my friends, or must I invest more of my time to get anywhere. At what point is my class fun in moment to moment gameplay, meaning I have a rotation of abilities to maximize my threat, minimize my damage taken, and support my group in ways beyond basic combat. Investing days worth of time to get to the fun is nothing more than a time sink This just sounds like bad design of low lvl gameplay rather than just a problem of leveling. You could have a game w/o lvls but it would require you to repeat the same actions to lvl up your skills, so at the start you'd still have limited gameplay. And if you don't want to have that limit - don't play rpgs. Yes, Intrepid can give all the tools right at lvl1, but those tools would still have to be limited in their uses, because otherwise there'd be no progress of your character. Its a problem with levels in general. Not to mention it makes portions of the content irrelevant outside of the leveling process. In a ruin is balanced around a level 23 adventuring there, what happens with a 30?
novercalis wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. currently it's 45 days casual grinding avg to hit max level, which is too short imo. I hope they extend it. Pacing matters - the slower things are, the significance things begins to feel. Milestones should feel like miles, not inches. Players or young gamers have become impatience and addicted to constant dopamine - slow down and appreciate the smaller things in life or in-game life. It's not a race, it's a marathon. It's not reach the end, nor should there be an end - it's the journey along the way.
NiKr wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » For example, I want to play a tank. What level ranges can I play the game in the role I desire? Can I play with my friends, or must I invest more of my time to get anywhere. At what point is my class fun in moment to moment gameplay, meaning I have a rotation of abilities to maximize my threat, minimize my damage taken, and support my group in ways beyond basic combat. Investing days worth of time to get to the fun is nothing more than a time sink This just sounds like bad design of low lvl gameplay rather than just a problem of leveling. You could have a game w/o lvls but it would require you to repeat the same actions to lvl up your skills, so at the start you'd still have limited gameplay. And if you don't want to have that limit - don't play rpgs. Yes, Intrepid can give all the tools right at lvl1, but those tools would still have to be limited in their uses, because otherwise there'd be no progress of your character.
KingDDD wrote: » For example, I want to play a tank. What level ranges can I play the game in the role I desire? Can I play with my friends, or must I invest more of my time to get anywhere. At what point is my class fun in moment to moment gameplay, meaning I have a rotation of abilities to maximize my threat, minimize my damage taken, and support my group in ways beyond basic combat. Investing days worth of time to get to the fun is nothing more than a time sink
George_Black wrote: » Wandering Mist wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Krakhun wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. Wow this is the wrong genre for you. You are looking for a sim game not an MMORPG. What does leveling have to do with Role Playing? In MMORPGs, one of the main tropes is progressing your character from being a weak and clueless novice to LEVELING up gradually to a master adventurer or even a "CHAMPION!" depending on the game design. Ashes is looking to be more along the lines of progressing to a master adventurer instead of some ultimate savior. Yes, character progression is very important in any RPG (including mmorpgs). However, does that progression need to involve mindlessly grinding mobs that take little to no effort to kill and just take huge amounts of time? Seeking the area with a cluster of mobs that awared the best xp contributes to exploration. Fighting over such areas creates conflict of interests, which leads to rivalries guild wars and server stories. If you make leveling a breeze that can be completed within two weeks you get no gameplay. Then, you need daily grinds, instanced content for fear farms, luckluster content such as ez, npc questing storylines. All of that is found in mmos today. People say grinding is a bad thing. I guess they are used to crap like bdo, another solo game. Grinding is a word I will replace with this: Play the mmo with your friends, since AoC will be challenging (and not mindless quest grinding for solo players) discover areas, farm mobs for xp, farm resoyrces for crafting, seek diagrams and key items, fight other people, encounter bosses, in the open world, for more than just two weeks.
Strevi wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » novercalis wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. currently it's 45 days casual grinding avg to hit max level, which is too short imo. I hope they extend it. Pacing matters - the slower things are, the significance things begins to feel. Milestones should feel like miles, not inches. Players or young gamers have become impatience and addicted to constant dopamine - slow down and appreciate the smaller things in life or in-game life. It's not a race, it's a marathon. It's not reach the end, nor should there be an end - it's the journey along the way. If a potential runner started said marathon without legs and had to knit 45 days worth of sweaters to get your prosthetic legs would anyone run said marathon? The fun in an MMO is exploring new environments with a team of people who all have specific roles. NiKr wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » For example, I want to play a tank. What level ranges can I play the game in the role I desire? Can I play with my friends, or must I invest more of my time to get anywhere. At what point is my class fun in moment to moment gameplay, meaning I have a rotation of abilities to maximize my threat, minimize my damage taken, and support my group in ways beyond basic combat. Investing days worth of time to get to the fun is nothing more than a time sink This just sounds like bad design of low lvl gameplay rather than just a problem of leveling. You could have a game w/o lvls but it would require you to repeat the same actions to lvl up your skills, so at the start you'd still have limited gameplay. And if you don't want to have that limit - don't play rpgs. Yes, Intrepid can give all the tools right at lvl1, but those tools would still have to be limited in their uses, because otherwise there'd be no progress of your character. Its a problem with levels in general. Not to mention it makes portions of the content irrelevant outside of the leveling process. In a ruin is balanced around a level 23 adventuring there, what happens with a 30? This is indeed a problem in the design of this game. If they solve it, to make each level feel as useful as the max level, they create another problem. I want leveling to be interesting and take 2 years long. That means the game should feel at any level as it would feel at max level which players typically call "the end game". They all rush to reach that because they say that is where the fun is. Probably is so in most mmos.
KingDDD wrote: » Depraved wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. why it isn't good design? care to elaborate? fun is subjective. killing mobs to level up or get gear is fun for me. progression implies a timesink If you're playing a dps role you need to have the necessary abilities to kill mobs. Jumping through artificial hoops doesn't add anything but jumping through artificial hoops.
Depraved wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant timesink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling timesink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. why it isn't good design? care to elaborate? fun is subjective. killing mobs to level up or get gear is fun for me. progression implies a timesink
Noaani wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » None of those things will require you to be max level, but all of them will be balanced around you being max level. Tell me how farming ore in any MMO goes when a level 1 heads into a level capped area. KingDDD wrote: » If the low level stuff is worth the time to farm, it'll be gobbled up by high level players. As much as I enjoy asking other people for help that have zero incentive to help me, I think Id rather see content not restricted from me. It sounds to me like you just want maximum efficiency, without putting the effort in to achieve that. Fun fact, while it may be true that high levels will dominate lower level content if it is profitable for them to do so, if you remove the need to gain levels, if you remove that time investment, players will dominate all content. At that point, there is nothing stopping anyone from dominating any content. The thing with genesis that the setup is as important as the payoff. A game that is all payoff and no setup is a game with a very short lifespan. Most people prefer working towards a goal and then achieving said goal, rather than just having that reward handed to them. The reward is more appreciated and more enjoyed when it is worked for. The more it is worked for, the more it is enjoyed. If you want to be a pirate in Ashes, work towards being a pirate in Ashes. You'll enjoy it more if you put that effort in.
