KingDDD wrote: » Noaani wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Noaani wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » None of those things will require you to be max level, but all of them will be balanced around you being max level. Tell me how farming ore in any MMO goes when a level 1 heads into a level capped area. KingDDD wrote: » If the low level stuff is worth the time to farm, it'll be gobbled up by high level players. As much as I enjoy asking other people for help that have zero incentive to help me, I think Id rather see content not restricted from me. It sounds to me like you just want maximum efficiency, without putting the effort in to achieve that. Fun fact, while it may be true that high levels will dominate lower level content if it is profitable for them to do so, if you remove the need to gain levels, if you remove that time investment, players will dominate all content. At that point, there is nothing stopping anyone from dominating any content. The thing with genesis that the setup is as important as the payoff. A game that is all payoff and no setup is a game with a very short lifespan. Most people prefer working towards a goal and then achieving said goal, rather than just having that reward handed to them. The reward is more appreciated and more enjoyed when it is worked for. The more it is worked for, the more it is enjoyed. If you want to be a pirate in Ashes, work towards being a pirate in Ashes. You'll enjoy it more if you put that effort in. I don't need to eat a bowl of feces to appreciate a perfectly cooked/seasoned meal. Oh, you want to do a food analogy? An MMO is like a restaurant's degustation menu. Its 10 courses, and each course is designed to be a part of the meal as a whole. Each course builds on the previous course in some way. What you are saying here is that you want to go to a restaurant, order the degustation menu, but you only plan to eat one of the ten courses - and you expect to be satisfied by that. If all you want is one plate of food, order that plate of food off of the a la carte menu. That menu is designed to satisfy people with individual dishes. In terms of our discussion here, the a la carte menu would be other individual games. If you want to play a game to just be a pirate, dont play a game where being a pirate is about 2% of the whole and expect to be satisfied. Rather, go play Sea of Thieves or something. Or learn to accept the rest of the game. I'm allergic to tree nuts. The third item on your ten-course meal has tree nuts in it. Must I partake in this item to continue progressing in the "experience"? What you consider what percentage of a game is irrelevant as what you want is different than what others want. MMOs thrive when players with a variety of playstyles come together to partake in a shared world.
Noaani wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Noaani wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » None of those things will require you to be max level, but all of them will be balanced around you being max level. Tell me how farming ore in any MMO goes when a level 1 heads into a level capped area. KingDDD wrote: » If the low level stuff is worth the time to farm, it'll be gobbled up by high level players. As much as I enjoy asking other people for help that have zero incentive to help me, I think Id rather see content not restricted from me. It sounds to me like you just want maximum efficiency, without putting the effort in to achieve that. Fun fact, while it may be true that high levels will dominate lower level content if it is profitable for them to do so, if you remove the need to gain levels, if you remove that time investment, players will dominate all content. At that point, there is nothing stopping anyone from dominating any content. The thing with genesis that the setup is as important as the payoff. A game that is all payoff and no setup is a game with a very short lifespan. Most people prefer working towards a goal and then achieving said goal, rather than just having that reward handed to them. The reward is more appreciated and more enjoyed when it is worked for. The more it is worked for, the more it is enjoyed. If you want to be a pirate in Ashes, work towards being a pirate in Ashes. You'll enjoy it more if you put that effort in. I don't need to eat a bowl of feces to appreciate a perfectly cooked/seasoned meal. Oh, you want to do a food analogy? An MMO is like a restaurant's degustation menu. Its 10 courses, and each course is designed to be a part of the meal as a whole. Each course builds on the previous course in some way. What you are saying here is that you want to go to a restaurant, order the degustation menu, but you only plan to eat one of the ten courses - and you expect to be satisfied by that. If all you want is one plate of food, order that plate of food off of the a la carte menu. That menu is designed to satisfy people with individual dishes. In terms of our discussion here, the a la carte menu would be other individual games. If you want to play a game to just be a pirate, dont play a game where being a pirate is about 2% of the whole and expect to be satisfied. Rather, go play Sea of Thieves or something. Or learn to accept the rest of the game.
KingDDD wrote: » Noaani wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » None of those things will require you to be max level, but all of them will be balanced around you being max level. Tell me how farming ore in any MMO goes when a level 1 heads into a level capped area. KingDDD wrote: » If the low level stuff is worth the time to farm, it'll be gobbled up by high level players. As much as I enjoy asking other people for help that have zero incentive to help me, I think Id rather see content not restricted from me. It sounds to me like you just want maximum efficiency, without putting the effort in to achieve that. Fun fact, while it may be true that high levels will dominate lower level content if it is profitable for them to do so, if you remove the need to gain levels, if you remove that time investment, players will dominate all content. At that point, there is nothing stopping anyone from dominating any content. The thing with genesis that the setup is as important as the payoff. A game that is all payoff and no setup is a game with a very short lifespan. Most people prefer working towards a goal and then achieving said goal, rather than just having that reward handed to them. The reward is more appreciated and more enjoyed when it is worked for. The more it is worked for, the more it is enjoyed. If you want to be a pirate in Ashes, work towards being a pirate in Ashes. You'll enjoy it more if you put that effort in. I don't need to eat a bowl of feces to appreciate a perfectly cooked/seasoned meal.
Noaani wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » None of those things will require you to be max level, but all of them will be balanced around you being max level. Tell me how farming ore in any MMO goes when a level 1 heads into a level capped area. KingDDD wrote: » If the low level stuff is worth the time to farm, it'll be gobbled up by high level players. As much as I enjoy asking other people for help that have zero incentive to help me, I think Id rather see content not restricted from me. It sounds to me like you just want maximum efficiency, without putting the effort in to achieve that. Fun fact, while it may be true that high levels will dominate lower level content if it is profitable for them to do so, if you remove the need to gain levels, if you remove that time investment, players will dominate all content. At that point, there is nothing stopping anyone from dominating any content. The thing with genesis that the setup is as important as the payoff. A game that is all payoff and no setup is a game with a very short lifespan. Most people prefer working towards a goal and then achieving said goal, rather than just having that reward handed to them. The reward is more appreciated and more enjoyed when it is worked for. The more it is worked for, the more it is enjoyed. If you want to be a pirate in Ashes, work towards being a pirate in Ashes. You'll enjoy it more if you put that effort in.
KingDDD wrote: » None of those things will require you to be max level, but all of them will be balanced around you being max level. Tell me how farming ore in any MMO goes when a level 1 heads into a level capped area.
KingDDD wrote: » If the low level stuff is worth the time to farm, it'll be gobbled up by high level players. As much as I enjoy asking other people for help that have zero incentive to help me, I think Id rather see content not restricted from me.
KingDDD wrote: » What you consider what percentage of a game is irrelevant as what you want is different than what others want. MMOs thrive when players with a variety of playstyles come together to partake in a shared world.
Voxtrium wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Voxtrium wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant time sink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling time sink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. Min/Maxing is fun because you know what min/max isn't. If you played AOC with everything you want for your character exactly how you wanted it within the game mechanics, you would have no idea how to create what you want, because you would have no clue what you didn't want. Leveling teaches you that. Not to mention all of the other things like, leveling is preferred by many because it allows for someone to show off their character as well as their skill instead of just their skill, and the heroes journey, and the reward is the journey, all of that good stuff. If your argument is "I can just pick what I like by reading the spells" then well take a fireball and a ice shard. Even if the game tells you the flat damage and range are the same, things like cast time, pen and what enemy type play a role in your preference between the two. Not only that, who you commonly play with (Ashes is balanced around 8v8 not 1v1) and the zones you typically play in (weather influences abilities) will all determine what lineup of spells you want at the end of the day. Finally if your argument is "If I have access to the entire list then I can just use each until I find my favorite" well welcome to leveling Leveling doesn't teach any of that. Using WoW as an example, how many players in 2005 could play their character to any modicum of a degree once they reached level cap. The difference in skill level (talent build, gear choices, APM) between the Classic community and the Vanilla community illustrates that leveling does not teach anything. As for the journey aspect, let players decide their own journey. Leveling hinders the ability for players to decide how and where they want to exist in a virtual world. Also you kind of glazed over my point, if your just given everything right away you have no way to min/max cause you won't understand the game, and leveling, effectively distributes the players time between learning their character and experiencing a hopefully content rich world
KingDDD wrote: » Voxtrium wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant time sink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling time sink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. Min/Maxing is fun because you know what min/max isn't. If you played AOC with everything you want for your character exactly how you wanted it within the game mechanics, you would have no idea how to create what you want, because you would have no clue what you didn't want. Leveling teaches you that. Not to mention all of the other things like, leveling is preferred by many because it allows for someone to show off their character as well as their skill instead of just their skill, and the heroes journey, and the reward is the journey, all of that good stuff. If your argument is "I can just pick what I like by reading the spells" then well take a fireball and a ice shard. Even if the game tells you the flat damage and range are the same, things like cast time, pen and what enemy type play a role in your preference between the two. Not only that, who you commonly play with (Ashes is balanced around 8v8 not 1v1) and the zones you typically play in (weather influences abilities) will all determine what lineup of spells you want at the end of the day. Finally if your argument is "If I have access to the entire list then I can just use each until I find my favorite" well welcome to leveling Leveling doesn't teach any of that. Using WoW as an example, how many players in 2005 could play their character to any modicum of a degree once they reached level cap. The difference in skill level (talent build, gear choices, APM) between the Classic community and the Vanilla community illustrates that leveling does not teach anything. As for the journey aspect, let players decide their own journey. Leveling hinders the ability for players to decide how and where they want to exist in a virtual world.
Voxtrium wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant time sink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling time sink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way. Min/Maxing is fun because you know what min/max isn't. If you played AOC with everything you want for your character exactly how you wanted it within the game mechanics, you would have no idea how to create what you want, because you would have no clue what you didn't want. Leveling teaches you that. Not to mention all of the other things like, leveling is preferred by many because it allows for someone to show off their character as well as their skill instead of just their skill, and the heroes journey, and the reward is the journey, all of that good stuff. If your argument is "I can just pick what I like by reading the spells" then well take a fireball and a ice shard. Even if the game tells you the flat damage and range are the same, things like cast time, pen and what enemy type play a role in your preference between the two. Not only that, who you commonly play with (Ashes is balanced around 8v8 not 1v1) and the zones you typically play in (weather influences abilities) will all determine what lineup of spells you want at the end of the day. Finally if your argument is "If I have access to the entire list then I can just use each until I find my favorite" well welcome to leveling
KingDDD wrote: » Giving players a way to progress their character in a solo friendly manner isn't bad, but locking a combat/crafting role I want to play behind a significant time sink isn't good design or frankly fun. I hope the leveling time sink isn't required beyond a tutorial system to introduce players to the game world and systems in a meaningful way.
Noaani wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Noaani wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Noaani wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » None of those things will require you to be max level, but all of them will be balanced around you being max level. Tell me how farming ore in any MMO goes when a level 1 heads into a level capped area. KingDDD wrote: » If the low level stuff is worth the time to farm, it'll be gobbled up by high level players. As much as I enjoy asking other people for help that have zero incentive to help me, I think Id rather see content not restricted from me. It sounds to me like you just want maximum efficiency, without putting the effort in to achieve that. Fun fact, while it may be true that high levels will dominate lower level content if it is profitable for them to do so, if you remove the need to gain levels, if you remove that time investment, players will dominate all content. At that point, there is nothing stopping anyone from dominating any content. The thing with genesis that the setup is as important as the payoff. A game that is all payoff and no setup is a game with a very short lifespan. Most people prefer working towards a goal and then achieving said goal, rather than just having that reward handed to them. The reward is more appreciated and more enjoyed when it is worked for. The more it is worked for, the more it is enjoyed. If you want to be a pirate in Ashes, work towards being a pirate in Ashes. You'll enjoy it more if you put that effort in. I don't need to eat a bowl of feces to appreciate a perfectly cooked/seasoned meal. Oh, you want to do a food analogy? An MMO is like a restaurant's degustation menu. Its 10 courses, and each course is designed to be a part of the meal as a whole. Each course builds on the previous course in some way. What you are saying here is that you want to go to a restaurant, order the degustation menu, but you only plan to eat one of the ten courses - and you expect to be satisfied by that. If all you want is one plate of food, order that plate of food off of the a la carte menu. That menu is designed to satisfy people with individual dishes. In terms of our discussion here, the a la carte menu would be other individual games. If you want to play a game to just be a pirate, dont play a game where being a pirate is about 2% of the whole and expect to be satisfied. Rather, go play Sea of Thieves or something. Or learn to accept the rest of the game. I'm allergic to tree nuts. The third item on your ten-course meal has tree nuts in it. Must I partake in this item to continue progressing in the "experience"? What you consider what percentage of a game is irrelevant as what you want is different than what others want. MMOs thrive when players with a variety of playstyles come together to partake in a shared world. If you have an allergy, we can work with that. If you just have a dislike of treenuts, however, try that course anyway. You are not allergic to grinding, you just dont like it.
Voxtrium wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » What you consider what percentage of a game is irrelevant as what you want is different than what others want. MMOs thrive when players with a variety of playstyles come together to partake in a shared world. And we round out our topic with the OP solving their issue all by themselves
KingDDD wrote: » Also you kind of glazed over my point, if your just given everything right away you have no way to min/max cause you won't understand the game, and leveling, effectively distributes the players time between learning their character and experiencing a hopefully content rich world I didn't gloss over your point at all. Devil May Cry has a significantly more complex combat system, and introduces its mechanics over the course of 10 hours. The question is is leveling for 45 days an effective means of teaching a game? Using other games as an example, it is not.
Voxtrium wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Also you kind of glazed over my point, if your just given everything right away you have no way to min/max cause you won't understand the game, and leveling, effectively distributes the players time between learning their character and experiencing a hopefully content rich world I didn't gloss over your point at all. Devil May Cry has a significantly more complex combat system, and introduces its mechanics over the course of 10 hours. The question is is leveling for 45 days an effective means of teaching a game? Using other games as an example, it is not. Then you missed it, so use your own point instead "What you consider what percentage of a game is irrelevant as what you want is different than what others want. MMOs thrive when players with a variety of playstyles come together to partake in a shared world." That variety? That is what makes this an MMO. Leveling? That is part of the variety, im not arguing that mindlessly killing mobs is what you should do... but it almost never is, is it? AOC for example says PVP and PVE will generate experience, combined with node progression, caravans and other things, those are all part of that variety, your requesting that variety be removed so that you can experience the tiny sliver of variety you want, but that's not an MMO, honestly Noanni's analogy was spot on.
Dolyem wrote: » Alright, all I've gathered from this is "I don't like spending time leveling a character so the game should change for me".
KingDDD wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Alright, all I've gathered from this is "I don't like spending time leveling a character so the game should change for me". The real question I'm asking is is this system fun, or is it here because of tradition?
Neurath wrote: » You'd still have progression in a horizontal game design. Weapon skills, active abilities, crafting tiers, gathering tiers, pet tiers, mount tiers etc. There is nothing wrong with a vertical progression pathway. The only issue with vertical progression is when power increases and levels can no longer be catered to much like Blizzard realised before the level cap drop.
KingDDD wrote: » The real question I'm asking is is this system fun, or is it here because of tradition? I've heard many players from a variety of skill levels across multiple decades express this system isn't fun. You can invest millions into storylines, voice actors, unique art, and enjoyable playspaces, but all the makeup in the world won't make a pig anything but that.
KingDDD wrote: » Leveling locks out that variety behind a time sink. There needs to be casual content that replaces leveling, but locking the ability to effectively partake in the endgame systems isn't fun. What you call a tiny sliver, I call a smorgasbord.
Dolyem wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Dolyem wrote: » Alright, all I've gathered from this is "I don't like spending time leveling a character so the game should change for me". The real question I'm asking is is this system fun, or is it here because of tradition? That's mostly subjective. I find leveling immensely fun. I even like min/maxing characters in different level brackets for pvp like twinking in classic WoW. I love the feeling of accomplishment having several max level characters knowing that not everyone will achieve that. Its just as relevant and fun as upgrading gear, but with levels you are upgrading the character itself.
Strevi wrote: » I like how this thread bring out from us how much we love mmorpgs
NiKr wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » The real question I'm asking is is this system fun, or is it here because of tradition? I've heard many players from a variety of skill levels across multiple decades express this system isn't fun. You can invest millions into storylines, voice actors, unique art, and enjoyable playspaces, but all the makeup in the world won't make a pig anything but that. And all those who find this kind of system unfun now have the session-based games. And yet all the rpgs still sell just fine, because they have their audience who likes them exactly the way they are and have been. KingDDD wrote: » Leveling locks out that variety behind a time sink. There needs to be casual content that replaces leveling, but locking the ability to effectively partake in the endgame systems isn't fun. What you call a tiny sliver, I call a smorgasbord. Only those who have invested enough time into something can partake in the peak content of that something. Levels are just a representation of that invested time. Like I said before, you can be a pirate w/o leveling up to max, but those who have leveled up to max (and invested way more time in the game to do that) will be much stronger than you. In other words you'll be a casual and they'll be the hardcore players. And your casual place is at the bottom of the ocean, because your ship got sunk by a stronger foe. I'm sure that it takes a ton of time for a group of new Sea of Thieves players to start playing "perfectly" together as a proper group. And that's not counting all the years of prior shooter practice that they've most likely had. AoC will make you play in a group of 8 players, who'll have to learn all their abilities and spells perfectly, all their synergies and combos perfectly, learn all the details and intricacies of character control - then add that all together and learn how to play as an 8-man group who moves like a single unit. Once they learn that, they'll need to then find a guild who'll accept them and then learn to play with that guild. I'd imagine that for the majority of people that would take the 45 days of 4-6h of gameplay that Intrepid are shooting for. Even if for some dumb reason Intrepid literally gave you a ready character that you don't need to build up - you'd still need to spend all that time to learn how to play the game. It's just that, instead of doing that Intrepid decided not to reinvent the wheel for the hundreds time and just stick to a good ol' well-tested leveling design. Though again, we've heard no real info on how ship combat will work, so you literally have no clue whether you'd even need to get to max lvl in order to become a successful pirate.
NiKr wrote: » Strevi wrote: » I like how this thread bring out from us how much we love mmorpgs Except for obviously KingDDD. They fucking hate their guts
