Contested dungeons

It has been well established that dungeon content will be something that can be contested by other groups in a way that it is not "first come first serve" for a whole dungeon and neither will it be infinite parallel instances only one group at a time will be in. However it seems - from what I know - that there is not much known beyond that.

So what I would like to do is gather ideas for what would be good ways to design contestable dungeons to have variety and avoid all dungeons having a "the strongest group will get the boss loot" design.

What we already know: Most dungeons and their bosses will be up for contest until the boss is dead. Dungeons will have "tiers" to them where parts of the dungeon will be designed for different levels.

And to make sure we are on the same page here - I am not trying to have no dungeons where multiple groups can be in the boss fight - I just hope to see different dungeon ideas alongside this one.

1) Availability

This first point is very straight forward: If there are enough (or too much) dungeons available even though the boss can be directly contested, it might not be anyone there who wants/needs to do so.

2) There is no "final boss"

While in quests there is merit to the idea of progressing through a dungeon to find a concluding element in form of a boss, I don't think it is necessary to put up such restrictions in every dungeon. Again, it's about variety when it comes to keeping a system interesting. So if we have a let's say ancient temple full of living statues, there might be multiple bosses in there, all holding valuable loot that is not inferior to that of other bosses. That leaves players with the option to 'simply' use the time one group is dealing with a boss in the eastern wing of the temple to go after the boss in the catacombs below.

3) Contest of access

In some cases it might make sense to not have a contest IN the dungeon but to gain access to it. Let's say this temple is still brimming with magical force but due to it's age the protective barrier is not functioning properly anymore. When the barrier deactivates/weakens, it is possible to pull some of the guardian creatures out of the barrier and kill them to obtain a crystal that allows the group to pass through the barrier even when its up - or to simply slip in. However the time window to slip in and the numbers of guardian creatures is limited.

This reduces the PvP in the dungeon but creates an interesting temporary battlefield in front of the dungeon, which could be an interesting story element for later.

4) Compete for more

The temple dungeon in our example is now controlled by a Lich (he will be only available when the adjacent Node grows to level 5+; but other parts are accessible beforehand). To strengthen himself he wants death to spread, so he deliberately opens up the proving grounds of the temple, here groups have to compete in some kind of challenge and depending on their performance, gain access to more difficult or simply different parts of the dungeon. To the players this may look like a reward, to the Lich it is a way to spread them out and ensure that adventurers are sent into the appropriate death machine. This is a bit similar to point 3 but I would use this to pit groups explicitly against each other which means greater PvP risk so more PvE benefits when you succeed.

5) Burn bridges

It would be fun to have some mechanics to make advancing through a dungeon more difficult for other groups that are further behind - for example by literally burning a bridge and forcing groups who came in later to take another, longer or more dangerous route. Of course this has to have its own price, consuming time and/or resources of the group passing the point they want to turn into an obstacle. It could also mean that they have to forego on a part of the loot or increasing the bosses difficulty (e.g. by creating a cave in they cut of one path for pursuers but a part of the final treasure chamber collapses and part of the bosses arena changes into dangerous/inaccessible terrain)

I really like the idea of not only trying to make it through the dungeon but also knowing that you have potential contestants sitting in your neck, which motivates players to really become very efficient at crawling through the dungeon and that's why I wanted to add some things to the ways these contests can be designed.

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Comments

Songcaller

Yeah. I used to run a lot of raids and some of my party members loved to solo some mobs. Even mini bosses and bosses were solo's eventually. I'm not saying soloing should be easy or viable but i do think it should be attemptable.

Gui10

Kilion wrote: »

1) Availability

2) There is no "final boss"

3) Contest of access

4) Compete for more

5) Burn bridges

Good ideas and I am especially a fan of idea number 5! It also makes me think of two other mechanics which can be included in here:

- Shifting bridges. Kind of like shifting staircases in Harry Potter, some dungeons could have moving parts that might move every 30 minutes, forcing groups to chose a different path depending on when they are in the dungeon, and they still might run into another group, but less likely. It will also force an interesting Meta to "time" these shifts and contest certain positions at key times!

- Progression permissions. Very simply put, defeating a certain boss, or an internal OR external quest, could grant you an item or key or puzzle answer allowing you to open a certain secret door in a dungeon only for your party or even to everyone, in which case you could need to be very careful about when to open the door and not let a rogue sneak in.

novercalis

tautau wrote: »

Possible solution:

Dungeons have multiple entrances and exits. There are various interconnected paths to the boss, some are longer and less defended, others are shorter and more strongly defended. Different paths have different types of mobs AND the types of mobs change each time the boss spawns. Players could learn the different paths in, but they never can predict what mob strengths and types they will face on a given path.

Once a group kills the boss and gets the drops, they don't have to go back out the way they came in. If you leave by a different path, you will have to fight different mobs and Might run into another group trying to come in. With many entrances and exits, it will be difficult to try to catch the players leaving with the loot, but you might (particularly if you have a spy in the group).

anyone who is leaving will be considered having loot, in any exits.

In a weird way, you're helping the Loot Stealers groups to spread out more in different exits.

instead of having 1 group of thieves camping the exit and POTENTIALLY fighting other group of thieves - now you incentives the thieves to play nice and each pick an exit.

novercalis

honestly remove the notion of "BOSS" in dungeons. Multiple rooms should have loots that most class desire all spread out. No Bosses, Just Named Mobs. Each Room is of equal value.

Raids can have "Bosses" and the obvious World Bosses.

novercalis

Neurath wrote: »

novercalis wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

I'm not against grouped mobs. I think there should be singular mobs and grouped mobs to make a dungeon more inclusive.

flat no.

They way Steven answered Solo play - he skirted around not to outright say there is no solo play. He said there will be some solo content - caravan, siege, BH.

As for solo players doing solo XP - I dont want to see that be a thing. MAYBE 2-3 classes being somewhat capable.

To be more specific - I do thing you should be able to single kill a target, but its gonna take you longer and the XP rate is NEEDS to be not worth compared to those who are in groups.

Sure, you can solo - lower level single mobs in the open world. In the dungeon - forget about, unless you're a level 40 in a lvl 20 dungeon - then once again - SURE.

Therefor I am against seeing individual players of equal level in equal lvl dungeons soloing. Can you single pull from someone, I guess - but dungeon mobs should look like this:

level 40 player fighting a "level 40 mob" is technically a lvl 42-43 mob.
In EQ a mob 2-3+ levels above you is pretty much impossible to solo.

So once again, you, the solo lvl 40 player will need to fight lvl 37 dungeon mob to be MAYBE viable/doable. But you are getting the XP rate of a 37 mob, that is lower level than you, which makes it even less xp.

I hope all of that made sense.

What are you saying here? You just want grouped mobs and no solid solo mobs? Won't that get boring? Perhaps inclusive was the wrong word to use but I stand by my initial statement.

precisely. I am against the concept of solo game play in an mmorpg. Unfortunately the term MMORPG has been bastardize and encompasses many games that arent in the same vein as EQ/WoW/Lineage. (FF14 Is NOT an mmorpg).
Basically what I think an MMORPG is a CO-OPERATIVE MMORPG that requires teamwork and everything is mostly tied to social gameplay and interaction.

If I wanted to play solo rpg, I'll play Zelda, FF, Elden Ring, Skyrim, etc. An MMO - I dont want to just share a universe - I want to be reliant by others and others be reliant of me. Team work, group effort, server effort.

Ludullu

novercalis wrote: »

honestly remove the notion of "BOSS" in dungeons. Multiple rooms should have loots that most class desire all spread out. No Bosses, Just Named Mobs. Each Room is of equal value.

Raids can have "Bosses" and the obvious World Bosses.

Imo it should just be a range of drop chances, that come to a balance for their lvl across the dungeon.

If there's 10 rooms with lvl40 mobs - 6 of those rooms can have different types of mobs with, say, 0.1% chance to drop a crafting material for one of 3 pieces (or sets) of gear.

Then 3 rooms would have 24+-3h respawn bosses, each having a 50% chance to drop full mats for a single craft of a single piece of gear or several mats for different pieces within the set that relates to it. And maybe 1-3% chance to drop a full piece of gear.

And one room would have a 2d+-5h respawn boss that drops mats for all 3 sets and has a higher chance of dropping full pieces.

When the boss rooms don't have bosses in them, they're populated with mobs that have the same loot tables as the bosses, but the chances for that loot are lower than the ones in the "normal" rooms, so the overall daily chance is the same, but the ones farming the boss room would also be the first ones to see the boss respawn and would have the first dibs on it.

At the end of the dungeon there'd be a super cool and hardcore raid boss with a several-day respawn timer, great chances to drop mats and full gear, and some sort of unique piece of loot.

In other words, every room would be pretty much equal in its worth on the grand scale, but boss rooms would give you an edge over the others, so for several hours every day there'd be a higher concentration of players in those rooms fighting for the chance to be the first ones to kill the boss.

Chances would obviously have to be properly calculated and balanced and all that.

novercalis

NiKr wrote: »

novercalis wrote: »

honestly remove the notion of "BOSS" in dungeons. Multiple rooms should have loots that most class desire all spread out. No Bosses, Just Named Mobs. Each Room is of equal value.

Raids can have "Bosses" and the obvious World Bosses.

Imo it should just be a range of drop chances, that come to a balance for their lvl across the dungeon.

If there's 10 rooms with lvl40 mobs - 6 of those rooms can have different types of mobs with, say, 0.1% chance to drop a crafting material for one of 3 pieces (or sets) of gear.

Then 3 rooms would have 24+-3h respawn bosses, each having a 50% chance to drop full mats for a single craft of a single piece of gear or several mats for different pieces within the set that relates to it. And maybe 1-3% chance to drop a full piece of gear.

And one room would have a 2d+-5h respawn boss that drops mats for all 3 sets and has a higher chance of dropping full pieces.

When the boss rooms don't have bosses in them, they're populated with mobs that have the same loot tables as the bosses, but the chances for that loot are lower than the ones in the "normal" rooms, so the overall daily chance is the same, but the ones farming the boss room would also be the first ones to see the boss respawn and would have the first dibs on it.

At the end of the dungeon there'd be a super cool and hardcore raid boss with a several-day respawn timer, great chances to drop mats and full gear, and some sort of unique piece of loot.

In other words, every room would be pretty much equal in its worth on the grand scale, but boss rooms would give you an edge over the others, so for several hours every day there'd be a higher concentration of players in those rooms fighting for the chance to be the first ones to kill the boss.

Chances would obviously have to be properly calculated and balanced and all that.

everything prior before boss room talks is a pure yes.

As for the concept of a boss room in your example.... i dont hate it... problems with set timers creates other issues. RNG timer would be better. If not, it's gonna feel like archeage dailies events. kinda indifferent to your version.

Ludullu

novercalis wrote: »

As for the concept of a boss room in your example.... i dont hate it... problems with set timers creates other issues. RNG timer would be better. If not, it's gonna feel like archeage dailies events. kinda indifferent to your version.

The +-h in my examples is the rng factor

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

novercalis wrote: »

As for the concept of a boss room in your example.... i dont hate it... problems with set timers creates other issues. RNG timer would be better. If not, it's gonna feel like archeage dailies events. kinda indifferent to your version.

The +-h in my examples is the rng factor

I'm so sad that you missed FFXI sometimes.

I'll just hope that all those times you suggest something that makes me think "Wait isn't this how it works in all games?" that it is because you got to have exactly that in L2.

I don't usually assume that for PvE though.

I'm more surprised that novercalis doesn't prefer this/isn't used to it. I thought EQ did this too.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

I'm so sad that you missed FFXI sometimes.

Yeah, didn't even really hear about FF games before mid-late 2010s

just wasn't really a thing in my neck of the internet woods.

Azherae wrote: »

I'll just hope that all those times you suggest something that makes me think "Wait isn't this how it works in all games?" that it is because you got to have exactly that in L2.

Pretty much 90% of my suggestions is something that I've either directly experienced there or just saw the basic forms of it there.

Azherae wrote: »

I don't usually assume that for PvE though.

Yeah, except for this stuff

L2's pve was definitely reaaaal limited before the later updates where they started imitating WoW.

Veeshan

Would like to see dungeons have muiltipul entrances so you cant just afk sit an alt outfront to see who coming in behind atleast muiltipul entrances make it a little harder to do this

Veeshan

NiKr wrote: »

novercalis wrote: »

The rooms don't look nearly as populated as L2 but EQ difficulty design differs. I am surprised to see soo many mobs compacted in 1 area and looks like if you pull 1, everything gets pulled.

A group of 5 in EQ can maybe handle 3-4 mobs with the right CC and prioritizing the right mobs. Anything more and that's a wipe. Dungeons becomes semi safe when all rooms are camped, if not you get them to wander and almost every single fucking mob loves to run away and RUN FAST - which triggers other aggro and aggro range in EQ are LARGE. Shit begins to snowball and trains begin to happen - affecting almost everyone in the zone.

L2's groups were 9-man and, yeah, usually you'd try to fight several mobs at once just to speed up your farm.

But quite often those rooms would be pulled into the corridors one mob at a time because the groups farming them were too weak. And then just running through the dungeon would be quite dangerous.

L2's leashes seem shorter than EQ's though and mobs across the entire dungeon are not as socially agroable, so if a mob from 2 rooms back hits you while you're running through another room (but don't agro its mobs) - other mobs won't just jump on you.

I'd prefer Ashes to exist in the middle ground between L2 and EQ. Fewer mobs per room, but they're more difficult and the dungeon is more dangerous overall.

Eq had no leashing btw u either zones out or run to guards to get it killed they were the only way to leash things in EQ which i quite liked tbh

these short ass leashes kinda suck in modern games. it like ur fighting a bunch of lazy mobs that can be fucked to chase u more than 10meters away :P in EQ it like get the fk out of my home and chases u all the way to the start of his base

lol

Veeshan

Strevi wrote: »

Kilion wrote: »

So what I would like to do is gather ideas for what would be good ways to design contestable dungeons to have variety and avoid all dungeons having a "the strongest group will get the boss loot" design.

The game could troll "the strongest group" and drop loot to mediocre players only.
I don't care.

But no matter what solution is chosen, I hope outside, at dungeon entrance, the best loot of that particular dungeon is 100% drop in a pvp fight.
Or at least valuable loot to have higher chance to drop than common tier.
Transporting the loot back to a storage should be riskier than driving a caravan.

Well everything dropped in dungeons would be considered material which is dropped on death in some way or form (we dont know the drop rate though yet) since raid/dungeon mobs dont drop equipment just mnaterials to crafts saiud equipment with which drops on death,

Ludullu

Veeshan wrote: »

Eq had no leashing btw u either zones out or run to guards to get it killed they were the only way to leash things in EQ which i quite liked tbh these short ass leashes kinda suck in modern games. it like ur fighting a bunch of lazy mobs that can be fucked to chase u more than 10meters away :P in EQ it like get the fk out of my home and chases u all the way to the start of his base lol

Early L2 updates had no leash too. People would pull bosses into towns and kill all the players traders there

I think that definitely contributed to the introduction of leashes.

Veeshan

novercalis wrote: »

It might be more like L2 since they are calling stuff as bosses in AoC

I am still holding out more akin to EQ design

https://youtube.com/watch?v=sH3kOHtx1YE

Lower Guk for example - You had multiple rooms, each room usually had specific loot tables and all the frogloks were regular npc but some frogloks were "named"

Lord Frogluk, Assassin Frogluk, Magi Frogluk, etc. Their pretty much got the same stat blocks as the rest of the mobs, just ma hit extra, or have a little bit more dps or hit a little bit more harder - nothing wild.

Story wise - the Lord is the "final boss" but he isnt treated as anything special from the rest of the dungeon. Just the higher lvl mob, harder hitting but probably the same HP pool. Drops a very nice weapon that many melee classes seeks to camp him.

The rooms don't look nearly as populated as L2 but EQ difficulty design differs. I am surprised to see soo many mobs compacted in 1 area and looks like if you pull 1, everything gets pulled.

A group of 5 in EQ can maybe handle 3-4 mobs with the right CC and prioritizing the right mobs. Anything more and that's a wipe. Dungeons becomes semi safe when all rooms are camped, if not you get them to wander and almost every single fucking mob loves to run away and RUN FAST - which triggers other aggro and aggro range in EQ are LARGE. Shit begins to snowball and trains begin to happen - affecting almost everyone in the zone.

Contesting in EQ - was running mobs against another group if in a PvE server. Or outright kill them in PvP server. The other contesting is DPS Race. P99 rules may differ in terms of "camp protection" first come, first serve but live - I did not remember people obeying the play nice rule. If we wanted to take over - we will out dps the mob. The stronger group wins. Lots of bullying. I would like this version, as it promotes conflict and potential pvp for AoC.

I personally dont want to see 1 mob be treated differently as the "boss" of a dungeon. Everything in there should be of equal strength. You can treat the loot tables differently - sure but each room or named critters should be of importance.

* Mages may want to fight the Magi Orc for it's robe
* Tanks may want to fight the King Orc for its weapon
* Rogues and Rangers may want to camp the Assassin Orc
* Druids and Shaman may want to camp the Witchdoctor
* Clerics may want to camp the King Orc for its armor
* Wizard / Necro may want to camp Magi for it's staff

every room were importance to some class and needed to form a group. It was a weird way to go about things - cause many times, Warriors has no reasons to be in Magi room and Magi room needs a tank. But the same is true for King room - wizards/mages/necro has no need to ever step foot in King room.

but people did it - to help a guildie or cause the room you were looking for is full. so you would join another group solely for the XP and trash loot until a spot opens up.
A Necro looking for Magi but the room is full. The Necro whisper that group or their necro and asks "Hey buddy, LMK when you leave so i can take over please".
Therefor - If that Necro got his loot or play time is up - it was VERY COMMON and etiquette to always find a replacement before you leave.

Now that Necro in king's room would say his peace, and joins the magi group. Usually Magi necro will give a 15 min heads up to the King Necro, so they can find a replacement or at the least, he can warn the kings room he is leaving soon to magi room.

SOCIAL INTERACTION and teamwork - GASP. Please bring this back.

EQ dungeon designs were definetly one of the best designed dungeons, there many ways to traverse them many rooms to farm different routes to take and so on, these especialy better for games with pvp too since if it ur standard 1 way tunnel system say in WoW then ur pvp groups know just run straight till u hit people (or group ahead has 1 person behind scouting for other groups cming behind) EQ u have options to escape or ambush/sneak up on players not to mention there largeenough and spread out enough to hold muiltipul groups.
i pref the camp and pull to a spot system too over the walking a linear path.

Ability to get lost aswell was great along with opportunity for players to make dungeon maps to sell

novercalis

Veeshan wrote: »

novercalis wrote: »

It might be more like L2 since they are calling stuff as bosses in AoC

I am still holding out more akin to EQ design

https://youtube.com/watch?v=sH3kOHtx1YE

Lower Guk for example - You had multiple rooms, each room usually had specific loot tables and all the frogloks were regular npc but some frogloks were "named"

Lord Frogluk, Assassin Frogluk, Magi Frogluk, etc. Their pretty much got the same stat blocks as the rest of the mobs, just ma hit extra, or have a little bit more dps or hit a little bit more harder - nothing wild.

Story wise - the Lord is the "final boss" but he isnt treated as anything special from the rest of the dungeon. Just the higher lvl mob, harder hitting but probably the same HP pool. Drops a very nice weapon that many melee classes seeks to camp him.

The rooms don't look nearly as populated as L2 but EQ difficulty design differs. I am surprised to see soo many mobs compacted in 1 area and looks like if you pull 1, everything gets pulled.

A group of 5 in EQ can maybe handle 3-4 mobs with the right CC and prioritizing the right mobs. Anything more and that's a wipe. Dungeons becomes semi safe when all rooms are camped, if not you get them to wander and almost every single fucking mob loves to run away and RUN FAST - which triggers other aggro and aggro range in EQ are LARGE. Shit begins to snowball and trains begin to happen - affecting almost everyone in the zone.

Contesting in EQ - was running mobs against another group if in a PvE server. Or outright kill them in PvP server. The other contesting is DPS Race. P99 rules may differ in terms of "camp protection" first come, first serve but live - I did not remember people obeying the play nice rule. If we wanted to take over - we will out dps the mob. The stronger group wins. Lots of bullying. I would like this version, as it promotes conflict and potential pvp for AoC.

I personally dont want to see 1 mob be treated differently as the "boss" of a dungeon. Everything in there should be of equal strength. You can treat the loot tables differently - sure but each room or named critters should be of importance.

* Mages may want to fight the Magi Orc for it's robe
* Tanks may want to fight the King Orc for its weapon
* Rogues and Rangers may want to camp the Assassin Orc
* Druids and Shaman may want to camp the Witchdoctor
* Clerics may want to camp the King Orc for its armor
* Wizard / Necro may want to camp Magi for it's staff

every room were importance to some class and needed to form a group. It was a weird way to go about things - cause many times, Warriors has no reasons to be in Magi room and Magi room needs a tank. But the same is true for King room - wizards/mages/necro has no need to ever step foot in King room.

but people did it - to help a guildie or cause the room you were looking for is full. so you would join another group solely for the XP and trash loot until a spot opens up.
A Necro looking for Magi but the room is full. The Necro whisper that group or their necro and asks "Hey buddy, LMK when you leave so i can take over please".
Therefor - If that Necro got his loot or play time is up - it was VERY COMMON and etiquette to always find a replacement before you leave.

Now that Necro in king's room would say his peace, and joins the magi group. Usually Magi necro will give a 15 min heads up to the King Necro, so they can find a replacement or at the least, he can warn the kings room he is leaving soon to magi room.

SOCIAL INTERACTION and teamwork - GASP. Please bring this back.

EQ dungeon designs were definetly one of the best designed dungeons, there many ways to traverse them many rooms to farm different routes to take and so on, these especialy better for games with pvp too since if it ur standard 1 way tunnel system say in WoW then ur pvp groups know just run straight till u hit people (or group ahead has 1 person behind scouting for other groups cming behind) EQ u have options to escape or ambush/sneak up on players not to mention there largeenough and spread out enough to hold muiltipul groups.
i pref the camp and pull to a spot system too over the walking a linear path.

Ability to get lost aswell was great along with opportunity for players to make dungeon maps to sell

Seriously - An MMO without a MAP makes a HUGE HUGE DIFFERENCE!

Man did it fucking sucked when you get lost in a dungeon while having a train lol. THEN you have to FIND YOUR FUCKING CORPSE. As horrible as this sounds and the amount of Rage / Grief this is - I fucking have fond memories of them.
I thought I had 3 hours to play, all spent on finding my fucking corpse and dragging it to safety. Sense of Danger and experience on the line, losing XP and potentially de-leveling.

People quickly learned - draw your map or remember landmarks.

I can run Upper Guk to Lower Guk with my eyes close.

Runneye on the other hand was a nightmare to traverse.

Sucks that maps became a staple in mmorpg

Ludullu

novercalis wrote: »

Seriously - An MMO without a MAP makes a HUGE HUGE DIFFERENCE

L2 didn't have maps for dungeons either and in the earlier days of the game knowing the dungeons perfectly had huge benefits. And guilds would usually have at least one player who could lead them through the dungeon in the shortest time possible.

Though pretty quickly quite a lot of people just learned the optimal routes and only used those.

Kilion

Good ideas and I am especially a fan of idea number 5! It also makes me think of two other mechanics which can be included in here:

- Shifting bridges. Kind of like shifting staircases in Harry Potter, some dungeons could have moving parts that might move every 30 minutes, forcing groups to chose a different path depending on when they are in the dungeon, and they still might run into another group, but less likely. It will also force an interesting Meta to "time" these shifts and contest certain positions at key times!

- Progression permissions. Very simply put, defeating a certain boss, or an internal OR external quest, could grant you an item or key or puzzle answer allowing you to open a certain secret door in a dungeon only for your party or even to everyone, in which case you could need to be very careful about when to open the door and not let a rogue sneak in.

I love the idea of a time related choke point to get a specific path through the dungeon!

It might also be an option to have key items IN the dungeon, like a wagon of dynamite to open a specific path and have that contested because the passage will close again. If different groups in a dungeon would influence events in the dungeon that would also be a kind of reward to be there when others are.

(EXAMPLE) Lets say there is a mine themed dungeon and portion of the mine dug into an old underground structure only to be abandoned there after some parasitic lifeform had killed a bunch of miners there. The mine was completely abandoned after a bunch of Earth/Rock/Crystal Elementals raided the place.

Group 1 takes a mine cart full of dynamite from the old storage facility to the outer wall of the structure and blows it up. The passage is clear but not stable, it sends tremors through the dungeon, notifying other groups that the passage has been opened but the explosion also has woken up an Earth Elemental Boss, who now starts moving through the mine shafts. Even though Group 1 triggered this event, they won't be the ones to encounter this Boss in this "Run", they can only encounter the Elemental Boss by exiting the dungeon and going back in from above. The triggered Earth Elemental proceeds through the dungeon, destroys the remaining dynamite in the storage house and then goes on to seal up the wall to the underground structure Group 1 opened because the parasites are a danger to the Elementals.

Group 2 who is also in the dungeon, decides to fight the Elemental Boss, they can attack him at the dynamite storage and use that dynamite to get an easier kill, but there is only a limited amount of time for that opportunity. If they don't succeed before the dynamite is completely destroyed the Elemental moves on to the breach in the mine and seals it up. While he channels his powers to seal the hole, Group 2 catches up and faces him again, but Group 3 has also waited here for the Elemental. They fight, Group 3 takes out Group 2 and then takes on the Elemental. The breach has been sealed but the Elemental has been slain. While all that was going on in that part of the dungeon, Group 4 has gone and taken a closer look at the resting place of that Earth Elemental and found some valuable stuff there as well as another area of the dungeon. If the Earth Elemental had survived to return to his resting spot after he sealed the breach only to find that it was looted, he would would go into a frenzy and enrage the other Elemental creatures in the mine as well. Also: If Group 1 abandons their run or wipes in the passage they have opened, a parasitic type of mob swarms out into the mine and takes over the Elementals.

Events like this could change the "scenario" of the dungeon, change loot tables and enemy types it would result in player groups trying to compete over the dungeon scenario.

A second group might sneak into the passage of Group 1 before it was sealed, try to kill them and all players who want to stop the spread of the parasite so that the big Earth Elemental Boss is turned by the parasite to drop specific loot. Having different impactful interests for a dungeon would be a great way to encourage competition as well. (/EXAMPLE)

And I remembered that Rogues will have the unique ability to detect traps and maybe secret doors in a dungeon. A group without a Rogue (this could be a limitation set by a quest or just by no Rogue being available) might want to take another groups Rogue hostage for some time to open up a passage to a specific part of the dungeon or to clear a trap.

maouw

More ideas:

Pantheon's Champions - players build reputation with the gods throughout a season. At the end of the season, the top 50 followers of each god are marked ("Norlan's Chosen", "Resna's Chosen", etc.) and a portal to the Pantheon's Arena is opened - everyone can enter to spectate, but only the Chosen can fight. Basically, the gods fight it out alongside their chosen until only 1 god remains with his Chosen - that god becomes Dominant for the next season and their Chosen are allowed to choose an item from that god's Treasury.
Socketed Colossus Golem - A colossal golem (hence the name) is covered in runic sockets. Players can climb the golem to place runes bearing their guild's symbol to claim that rune socket for their guild. Meanwhile, everyone else on the ground is attacking the golem - the more rune sockets your guild has claimed, the more your guild's damage penetrates the golem's armour. You can kill other players climbing the golem, you can smash other guilds' runes to socket your own runes in their place.
Echo Slime - Giant slime, splits into 4 smaller slimes everytime you kill it, only 1 of its tiniest form will drop loot.

Veeshan

novercalis wrote: »

Veeshan wrote: »

novercalis wrote: »

It might be more like L2 since they are calling stuff as bosses in AoC

I am still holding out more akin to EQ design

https://youtube.com/watch?v=sH3kOHtx1YE

Lower Guk for example - You had multiple rooms, each room usually had specific loot tables and all the frogloks were regular npc but some frogloks were "named"

Lord Frogluk, Assassin Frogluk, Magi Frogluk, etc. Their pretty much got the same stat blocks as the rest of the mobs, just ma hit extra, or have a little bit more dps or hit a little bit more harder - nothing wild.

Story wise - the Lord is the "final boss" but he isnt treated as anything special from the rest of the dungeon. Just the higher lvl mob, harder hitting but probably the same HP pool. Drops a very nice weapon that many melee classes seeks to camp him.

The rooms don't look nearly as populated as L2 but EQ difficulty design differs. I am surprised to see soo many mobs compacted in 1 area and looks like if you pull 1, everything gets pulled.

A group of 5 in EQ can maybe handle 3-4 mobs with the right CC and prioritizing the right mobs. Anything more and that's a wipe. Dungeons becomes semi safe when all rooms are camped, if not you get them to wander and almost every single fucking mob loves to run away and RUN FAST - which triggers other aggro and aggro range in EQ are LARGE. Shit begins to snowball and trains begin to happen - affecting almost everyone in the zone.

Contesting in EQ - was running mobs against another group if in a PvE server. Or outright kill them in PvP server. The other contesting is DPS Race. P99 rules may differ in terms of "camp protection" first come, first serve but live - I did not remember people obeying the play nice rule. If we wanted to take over - we will out dps the mob. The stronger group wins. Lots of bullying. I would like this version, as it promotes conflict and potential pvp for AoC.

I personally dont want to see 1 mob be treated differently as the "boss" of a dungeon. Everything in there should be of equal strength. You can treat the loot tables differently - sure but each room or named critters should be of importance.

* Mages may want to fight the Magi Orc for it's robe
* Tanks may want to fight the King Orc for its weapon
* Rogues and Rangers may want to camp the Assassin Orc
* Druids and Shaman may want to camp the Witchdoctor
* Clerics may want to camp the King Orc for its armor
* Wizard / Necro may want to camp Magi for it's staff

every room were importance to some class and needed to form a group. It was a weird way to go about things - cause many times, Warriors has no reasons to be in Magi room and Magi room needs a tank. But the same is true for King room - wizards/mages/necro has no need to ever step foot in King room.

but people did it - to help a guildie or cause the room you were looking for is full. so you would join another group solely for the XP and trash loot until a spot opens up.
A Necro looking for Magi but the room is full. The Necro whisper that group or their necro and asks "Hey buddy, LMK when you leave so i can take over please".
Therefor - If that Necro got his loot or play time is up - it was VERY COMMON and etiquette to always find a replacement before you leave.

Now that Necro in king's room would say his peace, and joins the magi group. Usually Magi necro will give a 15 min heads up to the King Necro, so they can find a replacement or at the least, he can warn the kings room he is leaving soon to magi room.

SOCIAL INTERACTION and teamwork - GASP. Please bring this back.

EQ dungeon designs were definetly one of the best designed dungeons, there many ways to traverse them many rooms to farm different routes to take and so on, these especialy better for games with pvp too since if it ur standard 1 way tunnel system say in WoW then ur pvp groups know just run straight till u hit people (or group ahead has 1 person behind scouting for other groups cming behind) EQ u have options to escape or ambush/sneak up on players not to mention there largeenough and spread out enough to hold muiltipul groups.
i pref the camp and pull to a spot system too over the walking a linear path.

Ability to get lost aswell was great along with opportunity for players to make dungeon maps to sell

Seriously - An MMO without a MAP makes a HUGE HUGE DIFFERENCE!

Man did it fucking sucked when you get lost in a dungeon while having a train lol. THEN you have to FIND YOUR FUCKING CORPSE. As horrible as this sounds and the amount of Rage / Grief this is - I fucking have fond memories of them.
I thought I had 3 hours to play, all spent on finding my fucking corpse and dragging it to safety. Sense of Danger and experience on the line, losing XP and potentially de-leveling.

People quickly learned - draw your map or remember landmarks.

I can run Upper Guk to Lower Guk with my eyes close.

Runneye on the other hand was a nightmare to traverse.

Sucks that maps became a staple in mmorpg

ive pretty much memorised every zone in everquest 15 years later i can still navigate 90% of the world from memory :P the other 10% pretty much places no one went to

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