Today 4man group in a 8 man area shows a larger issue in terms of difficulty

Here is my main gripe with what was shown.

This is an area meant for 8 players. But we had 4.
Those 4 fighting 1 elite mob took about 15-20 seconds. That is perfect time to kill for a 4 man.
But thats the problem - this is an 8 man area, meaning an encounter is 6-10 seconds.

I think the area is undertuned if they had an 8 man party and an actual tank doing it's job properly.

1) Basically - the amount of struggle they had today, is what I expect and would like to see as if this was an 8 man group. I want to see an 8 man struggle in this area and not breeze through.

2) with that being said - I dont think a 4 man should be able to compete in the area. Maybe the regular elite mobs but DEFINATELY NOT on bosses. Seeing them being able to still overcome "bosses" as a 4man is disappointing.

3) I hope to see 8 man time to kill on elite mobs be on avg 20-25 seconds and bosses 40-60 seconds

overall today video shows it looks hard but when in is put in context, four level 13 doing an 8 man level 15-17 content - the difficulty setting is undertune.

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bloodprophet

Interesting.
Showing a demo two years before launch is now equal to overall game difficulty

Karthos

I honestly don't understand why they don't get 4 more people to help out. I'm sure in their office they could get 4 more people for a video. The video just felt like it was very last minute when it doesn't have to feel that way.

It's not like they jump on last minute to film these and just have to get who ever is available at a moments notice to film their videos, right?

arsnn

I wouldnt even waste 1 sec of thought about balancing right now.
They just show areas they have progressed

novercalis

they did jump almost las minute. He said they played it today at 10am-11am then it was supposed to be livestreaming 2 hrs later.

novercalis

bloodprophet wrote: »

Interesting.
Showing a demo two years before launch is now equal to overall game difficulty

we dont know if this is their standard of difficulty, so its better to give feedback now then when it's too late

Karthos

novercalis wrote: »

they did jump almost las minute. He said they played it today at 10am-11am then it was supposed to be livestreaming 2 hrs later.

Oh My God, this is unexpected!

bloodprophet

novercalis wrote: »

bloodprophet wrote: »

Interesting.
Showing a demo two years before launch is now equal to overall game difficulty

we dont know if this is their standard of difficulty, so its better to give feedback now then when it's too late

You sure?

Ludullu

They constantly pulled more mobs who then would almost oneshot some of them. And that big wipe of the tank during the blue forcefield against several mobs showed that a tank can't just defend the whole party in that forcefield.

An 8-man group would risk pulling even more mobs, so the danger would be higher. We also have a super basic AI on these mobs, so we don't know how difficult they'd be on release. And as for def/hp/resist values on mobs - that can always be tweaked if needed.

Overall I'd say that the danger lvls are already nice. AI will push it even higher and stats will finetune it if needed.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

They constantly pulled more mobs who then would almost oneshot some of them. And that big wipe of the tank during the blue forcefield against several mobs showed that a tank can't just defend the whole party in that forcefield.

An 8-man group would risk pulling even more mobs, so the danger would be higher. We also have a super basic AI on these mobs, so we don't know how difficult they'd be on release. And as for def/hp/resist values on mobs - that can always be tweaked if needed.

Overall I'd say that the danger lvls are already nice. AI will push it even higher and stats will finetune it if needed.

Disagree, hard.

This was bad, specifically because it was a showcase.

If it wasn't doing a great job of showing mobs, it wasn't doing a great job of showing Tanking. If the Mobs weren't 'ready to be Tanked', then we can't learn anything about Tanking from watching them be fought.

So what are we to do other than assume that this is what we get?

My point is moreso that if you wanted to showcase Tanking for an hour you'd choose the area where the mobs have some half-decent AI and the pulls were meaningful, if that was the sort of gameplay you wanted to promote. Either they don't have such an area, or their 'technical difficulties' were related to 'wanting to do this and something bugging out'.

Looking aside from the fact that the Aegis forcefield ability is technically just silly, I'm interested in something from you specifically before I get too negative. Is this really what you expect in these games? Is this 'danger' and 'gameplay' for you? (lmk if this comes off as vitriolic, I can't tell).

Tweaking the amount of damage a group does to a mob or the HP values the mob has doesn't actually change the difficulty or the gameplay. "The Mob kills you fast" isn't 'difficulty' when you are already riding your cooldowns and spamming your CCs.

I don't think I saw Steven make a single recognizable 'choice' in that stream.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Looking aside from the fact that the Aegis forcefield ability is technically just silly, I'm interested in something from you specifically before I get too negative. Is this really what you expect in these games? Is this 'danger' and 'gameplay' for you? (lmk if this comes off as vitriolic, I can't tell).

Yep

My bottom line is really low, so while watching that showcase I was literally internally screaming "let me play this fucking game". The forcefield, if I understood its mechanics correctly, is pretty much an ability that I was imagining for a tank. A "others get hit, but the damage comes my way"-type thing, but a full player-controlled thing, both on the tank's side and on the partymates' side.

But again though, this is the base level that already has me excited. Adding proper AI, adding proper ability sets on mobs, proper mob group mentality and proper stat interactions (across all types of stats) would obviously elevate the gameplay ever higher.

Would I've loved to see all of that right now? HELL FUCKING YES. Am I ok with what was shown? Also yes. In other words, I'm doing a similar thing to what you were doing during some other showcases. I'm trying to see where this could go with future development. I might be completely wrong with my assumptions, but all of us are wrong in them until proven otherwise. Mine are just a few levels below yours, because I can be pleased by a much more simpler gameplay.

P.S. the comment could come off as vitriolic in text, but I'd like to think that I get intentions correctly most of the time, so I didn't apply any vitriolic sentiment to it.

Azherae wrote: »

Tweaking the amount of damage a group does to a mob or the HP values the mob has doesn't actually change the difficulty or the gameplay. "The Mob kills you fast" isn't 'difficulty' when you are already riding your cooldowns and spamming your CCs.

Some mobs could get the same CC diminishing return mechanic as players will have and some (or same) mobs could have proper resistances to the abilities whose CDs you'd be riding.

But I'd definitely like to hear what else I'm missing in term of difficulty. Cause to me, the danger of every hit is the difficulty. If I die - I have failed. If I've failed - the difficulty was higher than what I could manage. Steven said that they're not working towards pure iframes on dodges, so that already boosts the potential danger of each mob hit. And one- or two-shots from mobs seem quite dangerous to me, if I can't just endlessly dodge them w/o taking a single hit.

Azherae wrote: »

I don't think I saw Steven make a single recognizable 'choice' in that stream.

It's also Steven though. He's juggling a top of "showcase" stuff, while also not being the peak lvl player. Though yes, this was definitely a pretty basic showcase, but they've addressed that part in the stream. And as much as I'd like them to be finished with all the detailed development already - they're not, so I'm judging exactly what I'm seeing.

superhero6785

novercalis wrote: »

2) with that being said - I dont think a 4 man should be able to compete in the area. Maybe the regular elite mobs but DEFINATELY NOT on bosses. Seeing them being able to still overcome "bosses" as a 4man is disappointing.

He said he used admin commands to assist the party, which IMO is even worse because that's just one more reason we can't take this showcase seriously to form an opinion on how the tank plays... because honestly we did NOT get a genuine showcase of the tank.

The more I talk about it, the more I'm utterly disgusted with this months Livestream.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Looking aside from the fact that the Aegis forcefield ability is technically just silly, I'm interested in something from you specifically before I get too negative. Is this really what you expect in these games? Is this 'danger' and 'gameplay' for you? (lmk if this comes off as vitriolic, I can't tell).

Yep My bottom line is really low, so while watching that showcase I was literally internally screaming "let me play this fucking game". The forcefield, if I understood its mechanics correctly, is pretty much an ability that I was imagining for a tank. A "others get hit, but the damage comes my way"-type thing, but a full player-controlled thing, both on the tank's side and on the partymates' side.

But again though, this is the base level that already has me excited. Adding proper AI, adding proper ability sets on mobs, proper mob group mentality and proper stat interactions (across all types of stats) would obviously elevate the gameplay ever higher.

Would I've loved to see all of that right now? HELL FUCKING YES. Am I ok with what was shown? Also yes. In other words, I'm doing a similar thing to what you were doing during some other showcases. I'm trying to see where this could go with future development. I might be completely wrong with my assumptions, but all of us are wrong in them until proven otherwise. Mine are just a few levels below yours, because I can be pleased by a much more simpler gameplay.

P.S. the comment could come off as vitriolic in text, but I'd like to think that I get intentions correctly most of the time, so I didn't apply any vitriolic sentiment to it.

Azherae wrote: »

Tweaking the amount of damage a group does to a mob or the HP values the mob has doesn't actually change the difficulty or the gameplay. "The Mob kills you fast" isn't 'difficulty' when you are already riding your cooldowns and spamming your CCs.

Some mobs could get the same CC diminishing return mechanic as players will have and some (or same) mobs could have proper resistances to the abilities whose CDs you'd be riding.

But I'd definitely like to hear what else I'm missing in term of difficulty. Cause to me, the danger of every hit is the difficulty. If I die - I have failed. If I've failed - the difficulty was higher than what I could manage. Steven said that they're not working towards pure iframes on dodges, so that already boosts the potential danger of each mob hit. And one- or two-shots from mobs seem quite dangerous to me, if I can't just endlessly dodge them w/o taking a single hit.

Azherae wrote: »

I don't think I saw Steven make a single recognizable 'choice' in that stream.

It's also Steven though. He's juggling a top of "showcase" stuff, while also not being the peak lvl player. Though yes, this was definitely a pretty basic showcase, but they've addressed that part in the stream. And as much as I'd like them to be finished with all the detailed development already - they're not, so I'm judging exactly what I'm seeing.

Alright, got it, thank you.

I believe that the starters of the actual Feedback Topic work well as an indicator of what they want to know, so there's that.

I'm tempering my expectations here precisely because I know that I came into this game when 'the person whose influence makes me want to play it' was still involved, and that has since changed. If L2's stuff is similar to this, then the chance that this is Steven's actual expectation/idea of gameplay is at least decent.

Because yes, I'm also extrapolating based on what they showed, and it seems like you and I do actually have a fairly similar perspective/opinion of what the gameplay will be like. That's 'my concern'.

Basically you're my 'litmus test' for if this is likely to be 'hey they're not done' vs 'This is what they are trying to make'. So I thank you, and I'll relay it to the others.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Basically you're my 'litmus test' for if this is likely to be 'hey they're not done' vs 'This is what they are trying to make'. So I thank you, and I'll relay it to the others.

Your concern is still valid though. Very much so. Cause this showcase was maybe a step or two below L2's gameplay. L2 just had addition of different resistances (to elements and weapons) and a bit more mob group AI in some locations. But outside of that - you just had mobs with big attacks and huge hp or you had thin weak mobs for more of a solo/small group farming.

So take anything I say with a hugeass rock of salt. I dearly hope that Steven listens to his other devs and implements all the stuff I mentioned and more on top that I don't even know, but, as you pointed out, w/o Jeff we've got no idea if that'll ever happen.

Mainly I'd say, wait at least until their AI showcase and if you, with much better experience, see that it might not go in any direction that you like - you might as well be assured that the game will not overcome Steven's preferences in mmos.

Lark Wyll

I had the opposite reaction. Gameplay looked tedious fighting one mob at a time for that long a period of time. I hope this game doesn't go the way of NW with long TTK per mob as they're damage sponges and have the pace of combat drone on. I'd rather see more mob waves or packs and much lower ttk.

The old school single mob dense area isn't interesting and makes getting in and out a grind. It's fine for demo purposes but single mob fighting as a group ad nauseum with high ttk is boring. Basically every mob becomes a boss and you have to slowly turtle forward and hear the complaining between tank vs dps waiting for the tank to build up threat generation before playing as any other role. This is an outdated gaming experience.

I'd rather see modern mmo's move away from the sneak group play to avoid over pulling (its not interesting or added value to be a core tenant of a game imo). Also I'd prefer tanks to have much improved taunting ability especially vs non boss mobs to make it so the constant complaining of tanks was put to rest. It's a bad mechanic. Making other players take no action and be statues while the tank plays isn't interesting or fun. I don't know why game developers adhere to such a dated method. Just make the tanks taunt better vs all non boss mobs and let the other players take action without so much down time. The mobs being instant aggro'd to residual DoT heals from a healer was evident in this demo too and Steven had to try and get the aggro back. Just buff the taunt capabilities of tanks. Why is it important to make the tanks job a struggle bus? It adds no value to games and injects toxic frustration by groups amongst themselves. Get rid of the nonsense, it's all preventable.

Let the ranger and bruiser do damage and give the tank easy, repeatable, and strong ways to take all aggro in an area. It's not fun to sit on your thumbs.

I hope they have mana/energy flasks so groups can keep up the pace faster. The sitting down kumbaya is a waste of limited play time that people have to play. The tedious one by one combat with high ttk makes me want to run as a group past all of the mobs and skip them all. If the mobs were much lower ttk and in groups that rushed you, you'd blow them up and keep going fast. High ttk with density and single target makes players want to skip it all to avoid the tedium.

To make it more difficult if groups are farming the area players would gather groups of mobs to farm them with aoe abilities which would increase the difficulty. There's no need to take fights the New World direction and make all of the pve a boring grind with every mob having high ttk via being a damage sponge imo.

novercalis

Lark Wyll wrote: »

I had the opposite reaction. Gameplay looked tedious fighting one mob at a time for that long a period of time. I hope this game doesn't go the way of NW with long TTK per mob as they're damage sponges and have the pace of combat drone on. I'd rather see more mob waves or packs and much lower ttk.

The old school single mob dense area isn't interesting and makes getting in and out a grind. It's fine for demo purposes but single mob fighting as a group ad nauseum with high ttk is boring. Basically every mob becomes a boss and you have to slowly turtle forward and hear the complaining between tank vs dps waiting for the tank to build up threat generation before playing as any other role. This is an outdated gaming experience.

that is the beauty of it tho. idk about NW and let's not ever talk about that trash but it was those tedious moments that made the immersion of a fantasy world alive in EQ and vanilla WoW, as it appeared to be in L2 as well.

Pacing and Slowing things down IS A GOOD THING. It creates players having to be synch with each other. I'm here for social co-operation gameplay. We gotta move slow, gotta respect each player to make sure they are ready for the next pull or we all die. I not only need to worry for myself, but for my teammate.

I don't need the adhd dopamine drip every 5 seconds. I don't want to rush to high lvl in 1 week or 1 month or 3 months. Enjoy the details. There won't be any complaining when that is the standard, people will then relax, talk until everyone is rdy then continue fighting. you know, being a sociable human being.

everyone is trying to move fast, run fast. Slow and Steady wins the race. Less is more. Savor your food, enjoy the food instead of gulfing it down in an instant. Pacing matters in a mmo.

Percimes

They say it was intended for 8, but was it? Normal mobs all had 3600 hp while the players were all at 750 hp. So, if we're only looking at hp, mobs were about worth 5 players, not 8. Hit points are not all there is, but they still have a part to play in the balance.

Still, for the area they were fighting in, it definitely didn't look like a spot for a full group. It felt more appropriate for a group of 3-5. Why? Mobs and pull difficulty. Places truly requiring a full group should feel like it's not possible to pull only 1 or 2 mobs at the same time. These places should scare small groups to get overwhelmed.

Karthos wrote: »

I honestly don't understand why they don't get 4 more people to help out. I'm sure in their office they could get 4 more people for a video.

Aside from the minor inconvenience of getting more people, I guess the main reason is that, so far, they've only presented 5 of the archetypes. Mage, cleric, fighter, ranger and now tank. We have yet to see anything from the bard, rogue and summoner. Until they're ready to show these, I think it's wise for them to limit the showcases to as few redundant archetypes as possible. Redundant archetypes will be interesting/pertinent when they will want to demonstrated the variations brought by the second archetypes.

Gizban

superhero6785 wrote: »

novercalis wrote: »

2) with that being said - I dont think a 4 man should be able to compete in the area. Maybe the regular elite mobs but DEFINATELY NOT on bosses. Seeing them being able to still overcome "bosses" as a 4man is disappointing.

He said he used admin commands to assist the party, which IMO is even worse because that's just one more reason we can't take this showcase seriously to form an opinion on how the tank plays... because honestly we did NOT get a genuine showcase of the tank.

The more I talk about it, the more I'm utterly disgusted with this months Livestream.

You sound passionate about Tanks. Is that your usual class?

Gizban

novercalis wrote: »

Lark Wyll wrote: »

I had the opposite reaction. Gameplay looked tedious fighting one mob at a time for that long a period of time. I hope this game doesn't go the way of NW with long TTK per mob as they're damage sponges and have the pace of combat drone on. I'd rather see more mob waves or packs and much lower ttk.

The old school single mob dense area isn't interesting and makes getting in and out a grind. It's fine for demo purposes but single mob fighting as a group ad nauseum with high ttk is boring. Basically every mob becomes a boss and you have to slowly turtle forward and hear the complaining between tank vs dps waiting for the tank to build up threat generation before playing as any other role. This is an outdated gaming experience.

that is the beauty of it tho. idk about NW and let's not ever talk about that trash but it was those tedious moments that made the immersion of a fantasy world alive in EQ and vanilla WoW, as it appeared to be in L2 as well.

Pacing and Slowing things down IS A GOOD THING. It creates players having to be synch with each other. I'm here for social co-operation gameplay. We gotta move slow, gotta respect each player to make sure they are ready for the next pull or we all die. I not only need to worry for myself, but for my teammate.

I don't need the adhd dopamine drip every 5 seconds. I don't want to rush to high lvl in 1 week or 1 month or 3 months. Enjoy the details. There won't be any complaining when that is the standard, people will then relax, talk until everyone is rdy then continue fighting. you know, being a sociable human being.

everyone is trying to move fast, run fast. Slow and Steady wins the race. Less is more. Savor your food, enjoy the food instead of gulfing it down in an instant. Pacing matters in a mmo.

Agreed.

Zerg waves can be fun but they lack depth and turn into a bore.

Songcaller

I'm not sure about the notions. Even if you made the zone require 8 people I would still try to do the zone with less. Its not because I lack support, its because I like the challenge of doing content for groups as a solo, duo or even quad.

Liniker

yea I hope they increase the difficulty in this game, seems way too easy for a 4 man to be doing 8 man content like that

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