Spears! Please don't make them an afterthought!

Hello wonderful AoC devs! As someone who will be mostly playing a tank, can you please make 1h spear/shield and 2h spear as viable as 1h sword/shield and 2h sword? By viable I don't mean exactly the same. I means as good of an option in its own way.

Idk why but the vast majority of RPGs make spears an afterthought in spite of them being the dominant melee weapon in history. I always want to use a spear in games but I often don't get to very much because almost every other weapon type is made to be better in the game.

For the random people in the community who will comment and say realistically swords are better than spears 1v1, look at the videos below to see why that argument is actually just wrong.

Spears: Why they defeat swords, optimum characteristics & perfect length
Spears are better than swords (longer version)

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Ludullu

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Spears

daveywavey

Charlie Ashwood wrote: »

them being the dominant melee weapon in history

You have a source for this?

Songcaller

spears were very good in A1. There was a period where everyone used the spear. It was two handed and offered AoE swipes which made it excellent in A1.

Charlie Ashwood

@daveywavey You should watch the videos I have in the original post. Here is a link to Matt Easton's credentials.

Atama

daveywavey wrote: »

Charlie Ashwood wrote: »

them being the dominant melee weapon in history

You have a source for this?

Just read the Wikipedia article on spears.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear

It was one of the first weapons, because it started as a hunting tool. Humans have been using them for around a half a million years. It was the primary weapon of the Ancient Greeks (and was the most mentioned weapon in Homer's Iliad). The Romans based their warfare around the use of the spear and shield, with short sword (gladius) being something of a fallback weapon. As cavalry was developed, the spear became even more important, as it was the most effective counter to a charging horse (and could also be used effectively from the back of a horse as well).

They continued to be important throughout the Medieval period. It was the standard weapon for armies all across Europe. All you needed for a spear was a wooden pole and a bit of metal at the end, so they were cheap and easy to mass-produce compared to other weapons, and simple to train with, and very effective. Basically, training could be as simple as "stick together and keep the pointy end of your spear aimed at the enemy".

Note that while the above certainly is biased toward the history of European warfare, the spear has its place in the history of combat everywhere on the globe. Asian military forces also used spears to a great degree. As did African militaries. In parts of the world that did not develop as quickly, such as the Americas, or natives of Australia, you will still see spears being predominant. If you had to pick one single weapon to represent the history of human combat, the spear would be the best choice.

The dominance of the spear in warfare really only ended with the era of gunpowder, as melee combat of all kinds became replaced with long-range combat performed with rifles, cannons, rockets, and the like. And even then the spear had its place; the bayonet was a way to turn your rifle into a short spear.

All that being said, Ashes of Creation for the most part isn't a game about organized armies doing battle. It's about individual heroes fighting monsters and other villains while going on adventures. The spear isn't necessarily going to be the best weapon for such heroes. But I still think this thread has a good point (no pun intended); considering how ubiquitous spears are throughout the history of human warfare, it's a shame that they get little to no representation in many fantasy combat games. And they shouldn't be an afterthought in Ashes the way they seem to be in other games (when you see them at all).

daveywavey

Atama wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Charlie Ashwood wrote: »

them being the dominant melee weapon in history

You have a source for this?

Just read the Wikipedia article on spears.

You have an actual source for this?

daveywavey

Atama wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Charlie Ashwood wrote: »

them being the dominant melee weapon in history

You have a source for this?

But I still think this thread has a good point (no pun intended);

+10pts

Noaani

daveywavey wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Charlie Ashwood wrote: »

them being the dominant melee weapon in history

You have a source for this?

Just read the Wikipedia article on spears.

You have an actual source for this?

It's actually fairly common knowledge that spears have been the most used weapon of war in history.

I'm curious, do you have any sources that differ from this piece of common knowledge?

daveywavey

Noaani wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Charlie Ashwood wrote: »

them being the dominant melee weapon in history

You have a source for this?

Just read the Wikipedia article on spears.

You have an actual source for this?

It's actually fairly common knowledge that spears have been the most used weapon of war in history.

I'm curious, do you have any sources that differ from this piece of common knowledge?

Just because they were used for a long time doesn't specifically mean they were the "dominant" weapon of history. Or even, the "dominant melee" weapon. Even the wikipedia article references the Roman Army, who didn't tend to use the spear as a melee weapon, they'd generally throw them before engaging with sword. The spear wasn't the dominant weapon there. And yet, wikipedia sings it out loud and proud. wikipedia was never allowed as a source reference during my archaeology degree. I could go on there now and edit it to say that Rubik's Cubes were used as a weapon by the Ancient Egyptians. Doesn't mean it's true.

The spear was a very important weapon, for sure. But, the "dominant melee weapon in history" is a big claim. That being said, I'm very very much looking forwards to using it in Ashes, and we've probably derailed the thread enough!

Back to the topic!

Yes please to spears in-game. Both 1-handed spears and 2-handed spears, please!

Noaani

daveywavey wrote: »

Even the wikipedia article references the Roman Army, who didn't tend to use the spear as a melee weapon, they'd generally throw them before engaging with sword.

Yeah, pre-Marian Roman legions used this general tactic. But that makes up less than 10% of just Roman history. By the time of Julius Caesar (let alone the hundreds of years after), the gladius was relegated to essentially sidearm status.

I mean, spears have been used in virtually every war for the last 5000 years. They are still used today, both in more primitive regions, and in the form of bayonets.

I mean, what weapon are you going to claim to be more widely used? Swords? A weapon that was only ever really used on two continents?

Yeah right...

Songcaller

The veteran elites (Triari) used medium spears even when the Romans switched to the Spanish sword.

daveywavey

Noaani wrote: »

I mean, spears have been used in virtually every war for the last 5000 years.

Atama

daveywavey wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Atama wrote: »

daveywavey wrote: »

Charlie Ashwood wrote: »

them being the dominant melee weapon in history

You have a source for this?

Just read the Wikipedia article on spears.

You have an actual source for this?

It's actually fairly common knowledge that spears have been the most used weapon of war in history.

I'm curious, do you have any sources that differ from this piece of common knowledge?

Just because they were used for a long time doesn't specifically mean they were the "dominant" weapon of history. Or even, the "dominant melee" weapon. Even the wikipedia article references the Roman Army, who didn't tend to use the spear as a melee weapon, they'd generally throw them before engaging with sword. The spear wasn't the dominant weapon there. And yet, wikipedia sings it out loud and proud. wikipedia was never allowed as a source reference during my archaeology degree. I could go on there now and edit it to say that Rubik's Cubes were used as a weapon by the Ancient Egyptians. Doesn't mean it's true.

The spear was a very important weapon, for sure. But, the "dominant melee weapon in history" is a big claim. That being said, I'm very very much looking forwards to using it in Ashes, and we've probably derailed the thread enough!

Back to the topic!

Yes please to spears in-game. Both 1-handed spears and 2-handed spears, please!

I know how Wikipedia works. I was an administrator for more than 13 years on the project.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Atama

No, you should not use it as a source, I advised many people of that over the years, but a good article is full of solid citations, and you can use those as sources. The bit I referenced about Roman use of the spear came from this book:

https://www.biblio.com/9780747800057

And yes, you're missing the hasta and pilum, which were referenced as well (it looks like you ignored them or didn't read very carefully). The hasta was not thrown at all, while the pilum was often carried in pairs, with one thrown and the other kept to be used in hand-to-hand combat.

Noaani

daveywavey wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I mean, spears have been used in virtually every war for the last 5000 years.

Name one war they have not been used in.

And dont say anything dumb like WW 1 or 2, Vietnam, or even the war in Ukraine going on right now, as all of them have seen bayonets (a type of spear) get used.

The closest you will get to a war where spears were not used would be the Cold War.

Sathrago

Davey gotta be trolling. lol

Noaani

Sathrago wrote: »

Davey gotta be trolling. lol

This is a thought I had, but then I also considered the fact that he probably believes what he is saying.

Unless his entire post history here is just one big troll, him actually believing this is perfectly on brand. He has believed (or at least appeared to believe) far more outrageous things.

Kesthely

Charlie Ashwood wrote: »

Hello wonderful AoC devs! As someone who will be mostly playing a tank, can you please make 1h spear/shield and 2h spear as viable as 1h sword/shield and 2h sword? By viable I don't mean exactly the same. I means as good of an option in its own way.

Yes please, spears have always appealed to me in terms of effectiveness both in single but most importantly group combat. You could argue that you would need at least 3 types of spears though, short or half spear (1 handed) Long spear (2 handed) and throwing spear. This could be represented in different build options in the weapon tree.

Due to the biomes available, there is also merit for more diversity, eg in desert spears would be a lot less common due to shortage of wood, while in forests they'll tend to favor short spears due to forested conditions. And then we've not even discussed cultural variations for each of the races.

Child Item