Money and Development Time

Just curious.

How much money has Intrepid made over the past 6-years off of the monetization of a promise of a game? How much off of crowd funding, ads etc? Because I've seen that in the name of the actual IP, Ashes of Creation, donated a not insubstantial amount of money to charity over the last 2-3 years.

I don't know. I could be wrong but if they're making a buttload of money without even having to release the game , maybe that's a reason for them to say "hell, these guys will let us get away with this for another decade if we tell them its for their benefit. We're making money... why shouldn't we drag our heels?"

Just a thought that maybe you guys deserve a little more. There is no reason after 6 years a game should not be done. You say you are worried it will be crap. it will be broken. There won't be polish and on and on. Listen, there is going to be bugs and things that need ironing out no matter what. You cannot foresee every bad event that may happen.

Six years. With what looks to be a release date of Q1 2025 if you are lucky. And that's what the game producers and developers will say. "If YOU are lucky you will get to buy our game."

NO! Stop this. Stop enabling there horrible work ethic. In the ARMY we had to do things quick. Guess what else? We had to be extremely precise in all things. And you know what? Every job I've ever worked has been that way.

What a concept
Stop letting them get away with this crap. If it's not going to be released until 2025 or even mid to late 2024 don't buy it. Like with in all things, money speaks loudest.

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Noaani

They aren't making all that much money - Steven just happens to have a lot of money.

Money does indeed speak loudest. However, rather than asking Intrepid to release the game sooner, my money will be given to them if they release the best game possible - when ever it is released.

You statement of being in the Army is interesting. Sure, people in the Army do things quickly, but only because others have spent literal decades working out how those things should be done, and then the people doing them need only do as they are told.

Kilion

STOP_THE_ASH_MONEY wrote: »

I don't know. I could be wrong but if they're making a buttload of money [...]

The Kickstarter raised 3,2 M$ which a quick Google search would have told you.

If someone would have bought every cosmetic in the shop from day 1 onwards, they would have spent something like 30-40k

Now, looking at the 45M$ Steven has put in, mathematics indicate that there is no profit being made from Intrepids or Stevens side unless of course the dev team is scamming Steven out of his money.

Not sure whether in the army shots would have been fired as accurate as a Star Wars Stormtrooper did.

Blip

Kilion wrote: »

STOP_THE_ASH_MONEY wrote: »

I don't know. I could be wrong but if they're making a buttload of money [...]

The Kickstarter raised 3,2 M$ which a quick Google search would have told you.

If someone would have bought every cosmetic in the shop from day 1 onwards, they would have spent something like 30-40k

Now, looking at the 45M$ Steven has put in, mathematics indicate that there is no profit being made from Intrepids or Stevens side unless of course the dev team is scamming Steven out of his money.

Not sure whether in the army shots would have been fired as accurate as a Star Wars Stormtrooper did.

Dont forget the 5 000 000 mil Alpha 1 keys, 25 000 000 mil they made of Alpha 2 Keys alone, then there is the beta Keys and other packs. FOMO Cosmetics sold and so 4th. And i belive Steven put up 30 mil him self so yes hes gotten a ROI

Ludullu

Blip wrote: »

And i belive Steven put up 30 mil him self so yes hes gotten a ROI

30 was initial investment. He reupped that later. They probably earned roughly that amount back, but that doesn't matter, cause they've also been burning through money by constantly hiring people. Alpha2 release will most likely pay for another year or two of development, so game release in 25-26 would probably put them at 0 profit, but the release itself will most likely give them a huge inflow of cash.

p.s. can't wait for Jahlons comments on the "army" part of the OP.

daveywavey

Kilion

Blip wrote: »

Kilion wrote: »

STOP_THE_ASH_MONEY wrote: »

I don't know. I could be wrong but if they're making a buttload of money [...]

The Kickstarter raised 3,2 M$ which a quick Google search would have told you.

If someone would have bought every cosmetic in the shop from day 1 onwards, they would have spent something like 30-40k

Now, looking at the 45M$ Steven has put in, mathematics indicate that there is no profit being made from Intrepids or Stevens side unless of course the dev team is scamming Steven out of his money.

Not sure whether in the army shots would have been fired as accurate as a Star Wars Stormtrooper did.

Dont forget the 5 000 000 mil Alpha 1 keys, 25 000 000 mil they made of Alpha 2 Keys alone, then there is the beta Keys and other packs. FOMO Cosmetics sold and so 4th. And i belive Steven put up 30 mil him self so yes hes gotten a ROI

+3,2M Kickstarter
+5,0M (10k*500) Alpha 1
+25M (100k*250) Alpha 2
-45M (last official amount of skin in the game from Steven)

=-11,8M

Unless they have sold 80'000 Beta keys and Steven has not put forth more money in the past and the company has no debt it has indeed made a real profit, possibly for the first time in 2022. Now, all sales made after Alpha 1 where people came to regret them are essentially due to own negligence. At that point it has become abundantly clear that this will be taking MUCH more time to develop than initially anticipated from all sides. The risks had become clear, the criticism was numerous and publicly available.

And once again I see the argument "The game should have been done by now.". Unless some of these people coming out with this statement step up and prove how their assessment is relevant by proving they have been part of the game dev industry and bringing forth actually legitimate comparisons, I'll just note these cries down in the same category as the esoteric gibberish of some healing crystal the-body-can-only-live-on-sunlight moron.

Talents

I know this is a bait post, but the

There is no reason after 6 years a game should not be done

is wrong. Tons of MMOs took more than 6 years. ESO took 7. Wildstar took 9. FF14 took way more than that if you include the revamp time from 1.0 > ARR. Throne and Liberty is planned to release this year after 12 years in development.

Intrepid had 15-20 employees in 2017 when development properly started with some of those employees not even working on the game directly (e.g. community manager). They wanted 100 employees by the end of 2018 but didn't reach 100 employees until 2021. It's hard to look at development as properly starting because of how few employees they had until 2020.

Noaani

Talents wrote: »

I know this is a bait post, but the

There is no reason after 6 years a game should not be done

is wrong. Tons of MMOs took more than 6 years. ESO took 7. Wildstar took 9. FF14 took way more than that if you include the revamp time from 1.0 > ARR. Throne and Liberty is planned to release this year after 12 years in development.

Intrepid had 15-20 employees in 2017 when development properly started with some of those employees not even working on the game directly (e.g. community manager). They wanted 100 employees by the end of 2018 but didn't reach 100 employees until 2021. It's hard to look at development as properly starting because of how few employees they had until 2020.

Honestly, I have to agree.

I remember people making this argument back in very early 2020 - they thought the game had been in full development for 3 years by then, and so expected it later that year. I specifically remember pointing out them that the game still wasnt in full development at that point in time, so that person should expect a 2025 or 2026 release (some scope creep I have seen pushes that back to 2027 in my mind).

Some people are just unrealistic.

Gui10

Also keep in mind this is a brand new studio, physically and businessly. So getting started on your first game takes a lot more preperation than if it was an experienced studio that already had teams, methods and structures to build something like this.

The game is already funded fully to completion including a few years of uptime and xpacs with upwards of 30M (without Stevens own money, but from customers). It's great news actually. And it doesnt at all mean that we have to pressure the studio to release its game faster, quite the contrary.

The fact that they are well funded means they can take the time they need to produce a great game, and are not constrained to release super early to make more sales in order to stay alive. Catch my drift?

Voxtrium

Nah, I want to buy their shit, I want to have the cosmetics they offer and I don't care if they release today or next year, as long as they release.
I am prior as well... we both know the saying is "Hurry up and wait" so don't feed that line of BS to the civvies.

Bottom line, let people spend their money how they want.

Liniker

why are you worried about how people spend their money?

Goalid

They're making a lot of money from the packages. 100k A2 keys translates to $25 million, and we can assume their revenue is more than that given a portion of that are A1 keys, cosmetic sales, and Beta 1/2 purchases. And we haven't even hit the max hype for this game yet, when A2 is announced I can see the number of A2 keys sold being doubled.

I'm not concerned with the amount of time they are taking. I think the reasonable concern is if is ending up like Star Citizen, where we are being sold a dream of a MMO in perpetual development and Intrepid can stay profitable without results over a long period of time. We will have more of an idea of that after seeing 2023 progress.

I think the message we should all have for people at the moment is to temper their expectations. Let Intrepid focus on making progress while the community focuses on other games at the moment.

bloodprophet

Glad you seem interested in saving Steven's wallet from Steven.

All of what Talents said is true. Add to that when they had a major set back when the custom network code didn't perform as expected and they had a year long set back to redo a bunch of it.

The idea the Army does things in a hurry is interesting. Some of them sure but those I worked with briefly had no idea of what effectiveness and hurry up meant. As Voxtrium said it is more like hurry up and wait.

You seem to be in a massive rush for another rushed product. Take a breath and go read a book or two.

Semper Fi

WeGbored

Let's be real- 100k people paying $250 for A2, a lot of them probably went ahead and got the $375 pack.

That's another 10 mil.

Things looking good.

novercalis

STOP_THE_ASH_MONEY wrote: »

Just curious.

How much money has Intrepid made over the past 6-years off of the monetization of a promise of a game? How much off of crowd funding, ads etc? Because I've seen that in the name of the actual IP, Ashes of Creation, donated a not insubstantial amount of money to charity over the last 2-3 years.

I don't know. I could be wrong but if they're making a buttload of money without even having to release the game , maybe that's a reason for them to say "hell, these guys will let us get away with this for another decade if we tell them its for their benefit. We're making money... why shouldn't we drag our heels?"

Just a thought that maybe you guys deserve a little more. There is no reason after 6 years a game should not be done. You say you are worried it will be crap. it will be broken. There won't be polish and on and on. Listen, there is going to be bugs and things that need ironing out no matter what. You cannot foresee every bad event that may happen.

Six years. With what looks to be a release date of Q1 2025 if you are lucky. And that's what the game producers and developers will say. "If YOU are lucky you will get to buy our game."

NO! Stop this. Stop enabling there horrible work ethic. In the ARMY we had to do things quick. Guess what else? We had to be extremely precise in all things. And you know what? Every job I've ever worked has been that way.

What a concept
Stop letting them get away with this crap. If it's not going to be released until 2025 or even mid to late 2024 don't buy it. Like with in all things, money speaks loudest.

Average MMO takes about 10 years before it's released.

Throne and Liberty has been in production since 2011.

Strevi

Goalid wrote: »

They're making a lot of money from the packages. 100k A2 keys translates to $25 million, and we can assume their revenue is more than that given a portion of that are A1 keys, cosmetic sales, and Beta 1/2 purchases. And we haven't even hit the max hype for this game yet, when A2 is announced I can see the number of A2 keys sold being doubled.

I'm not concerned with the amount of time they are taking. I think the reasonable concern is if is ending up like Star Citizen, where we are being sold a dream of a MMO in perpetual development and Intrepid can stay profitable without results over a long period of time. We will have more of an idea of that after seeing 2023 progress.

I think the message we should all have for people at the moment is to temper their expectations. Let Intrepid focus on making progress while the community focuses on other games at the moment.

It is not clear to me if they make money or lose money at reduced rate due to cosmetics.
But Star Citizen is a scam. The fact that people see potential similar path in future makes me stay cautious.
I was waiting IS to dare declare a 2nd time an intended release date for the Alpha 2.
I wouldn't care if they miss it. I can accept delays of even 1-2 years but no declared Alpha 2 target prevents me supporting them.

Edit: and I want to support them. That's why I avoided participating in that alpha key lottery thread. To let others have higher chance and because I want to pay for the access. All I want is a declared release date.

Strevi

novercalis wrote: »

STOP_THE_ASH_MONEY wrote: »

Just curious.

How much money has Intrepid made over the past 6-years off of the monetization of a promise of a game? How much off of crowd funding, ads etc? Because I've seen that in the name of the actual IP, Ashes of Creation, donated a not insubstantial amount of money to charity over the last 2-3 years.

I don't know. I could be wrong but if they're making a buttload of money without even having to release the game , maybe that's a reason for them to say "hell, these guys will let us get away with this for another decade if we tell them its for their benefit. We're making money... why shouldn't we drag our heels?"

Just a thought that maybe you guys deserve a little more. There is no reason after 6 years a game should not be done. You say you are worried it will be crap. it will be broken. There won't be polish and on and on. Listen, there is going to be bugs and things that need ironing out no matter what. You cannot foresee every bad event that may happen.

Six years. With what looks to be a release date of Q1 2025 if you are lucky. And that's what the game producers and developers will say. "If YOU are lucky you will get to buy our game."

NO! Stop this. Stop enabling there horrible work ethic. In the ARMY we had to do things quick. Guess what else? We had to be extremely precise in all things. And you know what? Every job I've ever worked has been that way.

What a concept
Stop letting them get away with this crap. If it's not going to be released until 2025 or even mid to late 2024 don't buy it. Like with in all things, money speaks loudest.

Average MMO takes about 10 years before it's released.

Throne and Liberty has been in production since 2011.

I read they actually reworked the game at least once. It would not take so long if developers stick to the original vision.
But just as developers make bugs and go back to fix their errors, so can also the person with the vision realize that the game concept has errors and things must be changed at it's core. That can happen with AoC too.
I am sure there is pressure on IS from our side to stick with the original vision, but what if that is what will cause it be less popular and have fewer players?
Shouldn't they rework and delay release 2-3 years?

Ludullu

Strevi wrote: »

But Star Citizen is a scam. The fact that people see potential similar path in future makes me stay cautious.

Except you can already play SC, even if it's very barebones and obviously has a ton of problems. In other words, Ashes needs to release their alpha2 and keep its servers up for as long as possible to even catch up to SC's stage of development. And with the current pace there's a chance that we'll see Alpha2 in late 23 if not early 24.

And I thiiiiink that's roughly the same time of development that took SC to release their playable version of the game? Not sure though, so if someone knows how long it took SC to have a playable version that most people could just log into and play. Oh, and SC has had free demos in the past too. Doubt Ashes will provide those.

Now SC obviously had waaay more money, so they should've probably finished already if they didn't creep the fuck out of their scope, but iirc they made their own engine and a ton of other stuff, so there's an additional difficulty there.

In other words, Ashes right now seems much more like a scam than SC does, though I do not consider either of them to be scams.

Veeshan

NiKr wrote: »

Blip wrote: »

And i belive Steven put up 30 mil him self so yes hes gotten a ROI

30 was initial investment. He reupped that later. They probably earned roughly that amount back, but that doesn't matter, cause they've also been burning through money by constantly hiring people. Alpha2 release will most likely pay for another year or two of development, so game release in 25-26 would probably put them at 0 profit, but the release itself will most likely give them a huge inflow of cash.

p.s. can't wait for Jahlons comments on the "army" part of the OP.

think he said he up to 45 mil now into it

Strevi

NiKr wrote: »

Strevi wrote: »

But Star Citizen is a scam. The fact that people see potential similar path in future makes me stay cautious.

Except you can already play SC, even if it's very barebones and obviously has a ton of problems. In other words, Ashes needs to release their alpha2 and keep its servers up for as long as possible to even catch up to SC's stage of development. And with the current pace there's a chance that we'll see Alpha2 in late 23 if not early 24.

And I thiiiiink that's roughly the same time of development that took SC to release their playable version of the game? Not sure though, so if someone knows how long it took SC to have a playable version that most people could just log into and play. Oh, and SC has had free demos in the past too. Doubt Ashes will provide those.

Now SC obviously had waaay more money, so they should've probably finished already if they didn't creep the fuck out of their scope, but iirc they made their own engine and a ton of other stuff, so there's an additional difficulty there.

In other words, Ashes right now seems much more like a scam than SC does, though I do not consider either of them to be scams.

You may be right.
I considered very carefully if AoC could be or not a scam and I came to the conclusion that it is not.
The reason to not support them yet is because I supported recently a kickstarter project which ended up well rated but still having problems which I cannot accept. And so I know that satisfaction of being a supporter might not pay off long term. Excitement fades. People on all forums say: be patient, learn to wait, play something else... Was hard to learn. Now that I have this attitude, I see that actually I can wait even longer and I do not feel the need to play at release time.
So for AoC, no matter if I play alpha or not, I can wait at least 3 months to see servers being merged before I join a server.

Regarding Star Citizen, I say it is a scam based on other people's opinion. And I intend to keep this opinion even if by rational arguments somebody shows me that AoC is too. I am not a lawyer and I allow myself to come to different conclusions.
Similar bias I have against indie games which copy the graphic style Rimworld uses, with sliding pawns. I accuse them for copying Rimworld and I dismiss their excuse that Rimworld also took it from Prison Architect.

I want progress in the gaming industry and that means developers should not 'inspire' themselves so much but should come with innovations and also I want them to lose their money if they make bad decisions. I don't care if I lose too if they lose more than me. The gaming industry as a whole is more important than the developer I support to survive when it should not.

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