Action Combat with more forgiving precision

I've seen concerns about Action Combat and having to be too precise with it to be appealing to some players. I agree that having to hit people with pixel perfect precision, especially in an MMO, is a real turnoff. I play FPS games almost exclusively at the moment, and it can become quite frustrating trying to be perfectly precise all the time while fighting lag, frame drops, and any other inconsistencies that can happen. I think there's a couple solutions to this though.

For projectiles magnetism could be applied. If you're off slightly on a target, then the projectile will gravitate towards them slightly. This could definitely be more aggressive in an MMO, or it could even be a stat that you can try to increase. Destiny 2 is a good example of this type of mechanic.

The other factor that I think could help is being a little more generous with player hit boxes. I feel like some games try to be way too precise with them. I remember hearing in maybe one of the videos that there weren't going to be head shots with arrows, and I think that's a great idea to leave that out. There's no need to try and be that precise when they're going to try and implement bigger battles.

Since the game is going with a hybrid combat system, I just thought these couple of simple ideas would be something to consider when trying to make action combat more forgiving and also to make it more viable as an option to use. I'm okay with the idea that some classes will be more efficient to use with tab targeting, while others will be more optimal to play with the action combat setting. However this might close the gap between the two styles and just leave it up to the skill of the individual.

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Ludullu

I've seen waaaaaaay more people complain that the game is already too tab-centered and way too easy.

Solvryn

Ragin wrote: »

I've seen concerns about Action Combat and having to be too precise with it to be appealing to some players. I agree that having to hit people with pixel perfect precision, especially in an MMO, is a real turnoff. I play FPS games almost exclusively at the moment, and it can become quite frustrating trying to be perfectly precise all the time while fighting lag, frame drops, and any other inconsistencies that can happen. I think there's a couple solutions to this though.

For projectiles magnetism could be applied. If you're off slightly on a target, then the projectile will gravitate towards them slightly. This could definitely be more aggressive in an MMO, or it could even be a stat that you can try to increase. Destiny 2 is a good example of this type of mechanic.

The other factor that I think could help is being a little more generous with player hit boxes. I feel like some games try to be way too precise with them. I remember hearing in maybe one of the videos that there weren't going to be head shots with arrows, and I think that's a great idea to leave that out. There's no need to try and be that precise when they're going to try and implement bigger battles.

Since the game is going with a hybrid combat system, I just thought these couple of simple ideas would be something to consider when trying to make action combat more forgiving and also to make it more viable as an option to use. I'm okay with the idea that some classes will be more efficient to use with tab targeting, while others will be more optimal to play with the action combat setting. However this might close the gap between the two styles and just leave it up to the skill of the individual.

I do not get frustrated with FPS games because I practice using aimlabs or kovaks. Building a new pc in the future and will position myself to solve most ping issues. More or less, people will practice or they wont, that's on the individual. Precision is a player issue, mostly.

Because it's hybrid, I wouldn't worry much about it.

Solvryn

NiKr wrote: »

I've seen waaaaaaay more people complain that the game is already too tab-centered and way too easy.

I have seen both camps say it's too tab or too action, I'm waiting on for people in the camps to realize how purist their notions are.

Ragin

Solvryn wrote: »

I do not get frustrated with FPS games because I practice using aimlabs or kovaks. Building a new pc in the future and will position myself to solve most ping issues. More or less, people will practice or they wont, that's on the individual. Precision is a player issue, mostly.

Because it's hybrid, I wouldn't worry much about it.

It's cool that you don't get frustrated, but I'm sure there's a lot of people that feel differently, especially when it comes to MMO's. I'm not getting into an MMO to hit enemies perfectly with an arrow. It doesn't add anything to the game to be able to miss by a single pixel. I also think once you start using Kovaks you've kinda lost the point of gaming. There's this whole culture, obsession, with trying to be the absolute best in FPS games that's not healthy. It's pretty toxic a lot of times. "Make the game harder so that I can grind and be the best". Usually it doesn't even go that way for players that claim that. Gaming should be about the enjoyment and satisfaction you get from it, not to stomp others. There's a space for that anyways, esports, and I could care less about any of it.

There's also a lot of factors that are outside of your control. They're talking about having huge 200+ player fights, fps isn't going to be perfectly stable all the time. I hate when games stutter right when you're trying to land a flick shot.

To be clear about my initial points.

Projectile magnetism should be something very subtle and should be barely visible. It's in games like Destiny 2, if you're off just slightly (like literally a few pixels at most), it'll register the shot. They put that into the game because it's P2P and connections can vary quite a bit. It's to make the game feel more consistent.

With hit boxes, multiplayer games tend to but them inside the character models. They tend to be smaller than the actual character. This is to make it more fair to each player and limits that feeling of being "cheated". In single player games, enemies tend to have hit boxes that include the entire character model. It touches all of the outside edges of the character model. Something like this would be better for AOC.

So if there's a little forgiveness to projectiles, while in Action mode, and the hit boxes include the entire character model, it could maybe compete better with someone that is exclusively using tab targeting.

Solvryn

KeggerGamingTTV wrote: »

Action combat would indicate, at least to me, that you can dodge projectiles. THIS should be the case always. Ranger, for example, seems very cheesy if your target does a dodge roll to either side and your arrow takes a hard curve - with a trail. Seems very silly to me.

My very first MMO was Asheron's Call - And for those who remember, you could dodge bow/xbow/mage projectiles. This made pvp interesting as those players had to literally run right up to the enemy and cast/knock. Quite intense tbh.

I miss Asherons Call for that reason, dodging things. Was one of the best MMOs to date.

Solvryn

Ragin wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

I do not get frustrated with FPS games because I practice using aimlabs or kovaks. Building a new pc in the future and will position myself to solve most ping issues. More or less, people will practice or they wont, that's on the individual. Precision is a player issue, mostly.

Because it's hybrid, I wouldn't worry much about it.

It's cool that you don't get frustrated, but I'm sure there's a lot of people that feel differently, especially when it comes to MMO's. I'm not getting into an MMO to hit enemies perfectly with an arrow. It doesn't add anything to the game to be able to miss by a single pixel. I also think once you start using Kovaks you've kinda lost the point of gaming. There's this whole culture, obsession, with trying to be the absolute best in FPS games that's not healthy. It's pretty toxic a lot of times. "Make the game harder so that I can grind and be the best". Usually it doesn't even go that way for players that claim that. Gaming should be about the enjoyment and satisfaction you get from it, not to stomp others. There's a space for that anyways, esports, and I could care less about any of it.

There's also a lot of factors that are outside of your control. They're talking about having huge 200+ player fights, fps isn't going to be perfectly stable all the time. I hate when games stutter right when you're trying to land a flick shot.

To be clear about my initial points.

Projectile magnetism should be something very subtle and should be barely visible. It's in games like Destiny 2, if you're off just slightly (like literally a few pixels at most), it'll register the shot. They put that into the game because it's P2P and connections can vary quite a bit. It's to make the game feel more consistent.

With hit boxes, multiplayer games tend to but them inside the character models. They tend to be smaller than the actual character. This is to make it more fair to each player and limits that feeling of being "cheated". In single player games, enemies tend to have hit boxes that include the entire character model. It touches all of the outside edges of the character model. Something like this would be better for AOC.

So if there's a little forgiveness to projectiles, while in Action mode, and the hit boxes include the entire character model, it could maybe compete better with someone that is exclusively using tab targeting.

I understand the projectile magnetism thing, TERA had it. It's pretty much soft lock, which can be adjusted for different parameters.

I prefer precision in my gameplay, it adds a layer of fun for me.

Ragin

KeggerGamingTTV wrote: »

Action combat would indicate, at least to me, that you can dodge projectiles. THIS should be the case always. Ranger, for example, seems very cheesy if your target does a dodge roll to either side and your arrow takes a hard curve - with a trail. Seems very silly to me.

My very first MMO was Asheron's Call - And for those who remember, you could dodge bow/xbow/mage projectiles. This made pvp interesting as those players had to literally run right up to the enemy and cast/knock. Quite intense tbh.

So what does dodge have to do with a projectile having magnetism? How would that work any different then it would with tab targeting? I think you're mixing up concepts.

The two solutions I brought up are already implemented in a lot of games. If you can see the projectile curving, then it's WAY over tuned, I did say a few pixel NOT meters. The magnetism is supposed to clean up the inconsistencies that come with online gaming, not to be a straight up aim bot. If you dodge an arrow or spell, you would still dodge it.

The problem I see is why pick Action Combat over Tab Targeting? It's up to you to choose in game? It's already been confirmed the game will be a hybrid system and it's up to you to play the way you find more enjoyable. If aiming with Tab is a lock on, while Action isn't, why on Earth would you pick Action? I much prefer playing Action Combat, but I don't want to be at a complete disadvantage because of it.

Veeshan

Ragin wrote: »

I've seen concerns about Action Combat and having to be too precise with it to be appealing to some players. I agree that having to hit people with pixel perfect precision, especially in an MMO, is a real turnoff. I play FPS games almost exclusively at the moment, and it can become quite frustrating trying to be perfectly precise all the time while fighting lag, frame drops, and any other inconsistencies that can happen. I think there's a couple solutions to this though.

For projectiles magnetism could be applied. If you're off slightly on a target, then the projectile will gravitate towards them slightly. This could definitely be more aggressive in an MMO, or it could even be a stat that you can try to increase. Destiny 2 is a good example of this type of mechanic.

The other factor that I think could help is being a little more generous with player hit boxes. I feel like some games try to be way too precise with them. I remember hearing in maybe one of the videos that there weren't going to be head shots with arrows, and I think that's a great idea to leave that out. There's no need to try and be that precise when they're going to try and implement bigger battles.

Since the game is going with a hybrid combat system, I just thought these couple of simple ideas would be something to consider when trying to make action combat more forgiving and also to make it more viable as an option to use. I'm okay with the idea that some classes will be more efficient to use with tab targeting, while others will be more optimal to play with the action combat setting. However this might close the gap between the two styles and just leave it up to the skill of the individual.

the action combat seems to be tab targeting in disguise so there definitely no need for super precision, like ucan lock on to targets and shoot in the general direction it seems and it will hit the target although i think people/objects can still body block it which is good

Ragin

@Veeshan That's what it's looking like. They mentioned in one of the streams there was a soft lock mechanic when using Action Combat I believe? Which in the end might feel just fine to use.

Veeshan

Ragin wrote: »

@Veeshan That's what it's looking like. They mentioned in one of the streams there was a soft lock mechanic when using Action Combat I believe? Which in the end might feel just fine to use.

think it the range stream showcase that they went through combat, the action combat seem to be much like GW2 combat with the added locking system where u can lock onto a target which is basicly tab targeting at the point with the bonus of attacks being able to be intercepted it seems by other players or enviroment (if i remember correctly although could of been a bug there one a moment where one of steven shots actually misses cause it hit a tree that the mob ran behind) but this wasnt mention specificly so could of been a weird bug where dmg didnt show for what ever reason or it could of been intended we dont know yet in that regards.

However it safe to say the combat wont be very twitchy aiming wise like a FPS for example or even darkfall

Sexy_Fufu

Thankies for making this post @Ragin , I share the same view on this as you do!

Ragin wrote: »

I'm not getting into an MMO to hit enemies perfectly with an arrow.

Exactly! If I wanted to play games that demands one to have a perfect aim when they shoot, I would play FPS games instead of a MMORPG. That's what a FPS game is designed for, after all.

Lark Wyll

I'd rather they balance around projectiles landing every shot than go full action and balance damage around assumed missed projectiles and have ranged be the default pvx role due to having op damage when they adjust the hit boxes to be too forgiving (see New World) or aim bots inevitability.

I do enjoy action combat but balancing it is difficult when you can't stop cheating and the skill level inevitably pushes the hit boxes to be too easy for decent players to land making them oppressive in pvp. It's much easier to balance tab target damage values when you assume all or nearly all hits will land.

Ragin

Lark Wyll wrote: »

I'd rather they balance around projectiles landing every shot than go full action and balance damage around assumed missed projectiles and have ranged be the default pvx role due to having op damage when they adjust the hit boxes to be too forgiving (see New World) or aim bots inevitability.

I do enjoy action combat but balancing it is difficult when you can't stop cheating and the skill level inevitably pushes the hit boxes to be too easy for decent players to land making them oppressive in pvp. It's much easier to balance tab target damage values when you assume all or nearly all hits will land.

I don't think something being difficult to balance should be the deciding factor. Cheating can be an issue, but the game is going to be subbed based? In a game that you can spend hundreds of hours building your character, with a monthly sub, those are quite the deterrents to prevent people from cheating.

I still think action combat is the way to go. There's so many ways to balance it. My suggestions are just to make it more forgiving and not to worry about having pixel perfect precision. That makes more sense to me then tab targeting and having a percentage of the projectiles miss or do less damage.

Arya_Yeshe

In my opinion, an arrow should function as an Area of Effect (AoE) damage in a corridor shape, and a check should occur if there is a player within it. It would be difficult to attempt a headshot when players have varying levels of latency.

Ragin

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

In my opinion, an arrow should function as an Area of Effect (AoE) damage in a corridor shape, and a check should occur if there is a player within it. It would be difficult to attempt a headshot when players have varying levels of latency.

That's kinda the same idea as the bigger hit boxes, and that could work too... but I still think bigger hit boxes is the way to go. You could have a standard size, and then just put characters inside of that essentially. Big characters would fill the box completely, while smaller ones would have some open space surrounding them. In practice though, you wouldn't really notice it, unless it's a really small character maybe. The tradeoff would be more balanced game play versus perfectly aligned hit boxes to each individual character.

Child Item