The Implications of the Removal of Crossbows/Potion Launchers

Recently we’ve gotten news that crossbows and potion launchers will no longer be included in the game. This is a major disappointment to the community… Not only because there are those who were hoping to use these weapons, but because this decision could be foreshadowing the future of Ashes.

Are we to expect more shortcuts in the future?

Considering that crossbows were a stretch goal, people paid to have them implemented. Dropping them from the game implies a disregard for other promised features.

It also implies that Ashes combat/class systems will not be as multiplex and flexible as many of us hope it will be. They’ve chosen to exclude these weapons because of extra animation and vfx work, and most likely because they also don’t want to worry about adding additional skills that support these weapons. This suggests that there will only be a set amount of skills that come with your class, and players will not be able to build their character with unique skill combinations that specialize with their weapon choice and enchants/buffs. This suggests a very two-dimensional system, which is a major disappointment… Not only because it limits player choice, but it limits the heights that can be reached in the game. A two-dimensional combat system goes in tandem with a two-dimensional craft system and so forth.

A fellow member in my guild suggested a good idea: Weapons with a more complex design (crossbows/potion launchers) could be unlocked in higher level scientific nodes. Ideas such as this are not feasible if ideas are cut because it would be “too much work”. Dark and Darker is able to implement crossbows with a slow reload time. This game is much clunkier and lower budget that I hope ashes will be, but its still able to create an interesting combat experience with these weapons.

It is within reason that players are expecting a game that redefines the mold and breaks the wheel of boring mmorpgs. We have been forced to live with the dream of a game that actually puts the rpg in mmo, a game where you can live your fantasy life. We’ve had to live with thoughts of, “Well this could be better if only it had xyz.” As the target demographic of these products we need to demand better, for the sake of the future of mmorpgs. We need to stop accepting excuses and being overly understanding. This is a product you are paying for.

It is also inexcusable that we were informed of this change in a discord post from Steven. The “relatable developer” marketing is beginning to look unprofessional. This includes the tank showcase, where Steven’s lack of skill made it hard to reliably judge the tank role being showcased. People seem to forget that Steven Sharif has a history of multi level marketing and is here to sell a product. Being a relatable gamer here to save the mmo genre is a great marketing ploy.
It’s clear that from the amount of money invested in what they’ve shown us, that Ashes is not a scam. Though in the end it is a product and we are the consumers of that product. I’m not at all against them making money, but I am against low quality goods. You get to choose what food you put into your mouth. I’d sooner pay $300 for a 100% linen ethically/sustainably made dress, than I would pay $5 for a dress off of Shein. That’s to say its better to pay for a high quality product.

I encourage all of my fellow community members to voice their opinions on developer decisions, and to demand a high quality product. It is better to make demands that are “unreasonable” than to sit and accept shortcuts. We have a great opportunity, developers seem to actually read and listen to us, and we get to help shape a game that could be the future of MMORPGs.

This isn’t just about crossbows, its about the future of gaming.

Cheers friends

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Galvyr

NiKr wrote: »

Galvyr wrote: »

People dismissing Judeth's points are missing the forest for the trees. It's not about the weapons at the end of the day. It's the more significant implication that if they can remove this stretch goal, what else can they remove? I don't understand how anyone can be okay with unfulfilled promises. Especially when those unfulfilled promises were used to raise money for the Kickstarter. We have to be able to criticize Interipid for bad calls because that's the only way those things are going to improve. We do this because we care.

At 33:54 here they laugh at crossbows being accidentally included on the screenshot and then remove them, which to me seems like a good indicator that even in 2018 they already at least thought of not including those in the game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nff_kdiKdDU

Also, I've tried looking for concrete info, but I can't find any indication of particularly crossbows or launchers being promised in the kickstarter. And wiki seems to have moved on from them and only points towards those weapons just mentioned in the context of APOC.

Do you have a link that directly shows Intrepid promising these 2 particular weapons for kickstarter backers?

Steven himself said it. I have also looked for direct evidence, but I am deferring to Steven on this. He said it was a stretch goal and now that stretch goal is being axed. In my opinion, that is breaking a promise. It just makes doesn't sense for crossbows especially to not be included in the game. It does a disservice to the Ranger class. It doesn't make sense from a lore perspective. They were already in Apoc. It gives us less variety of weapon options, etc. But as I said before, it really is more about the broader implications for me than the weapons being cut.

Azherae

Galvyr wrote: »

NiKr wrote: »

Galvyr wrote: »

People dismissing Judeth's points are missing the forest for the trees. It's not about the weapons at the end of the day. It's the more significant implication that if they can remove this stretch goal, what else can they remove? I don't understand how anyone can be okay with unfulfilled promises. Especially when those unfulfilled promises were used to raise money for the Kickstarter. We have to be able to criticize Interipid for bad calls because that's the only way those things are going to improve. We do this because we care.

At 33:54 here they laugh at crossbows being accidentally included on the screenshot and then remove them, which to me seems like a good indicator that even in 2018 they already at least thought of not including those in the game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nff_kdiKdDU

Also, I've tried looking for concrete info, but I can't find any indication of particularly crossbows or launchers being promised in the kickstarter. And wiki seems to have moved on from them and only points towards those weapons just mentioned in the context of APOC.

Do you have a link that directly shows Intrepid promising these 2 particular weapons for kickstarter backers?

Steven himself said it. I have also looked for direct evidence, but I am deferring to Steven on this. He said it was a stretch goal and now that stretch goal is being axed. In my opinion, that is breaking a promise. It just makes doesn't sense for crossbows especially to not be included in the game. It does a disservice to the Ranger class. It doesn't make sense from a lore perspective. They were already in Apoc. It gives us less variety of weapon options, etc. But as I said before, it really is more about the broader implications for me than the weapons being cut.

I wonder if we're still getting Ballista, and it's just the player character animations.

I have no perspective on this, since, to me, Crossbow is among the easiest things to animate, even if you were to do the entire 'reloading properly between each shot' animation.

So regardless of whether or not I care about the weapon itself being cut, I am quite surprised by the reasoning given.

Galvyr

Natasha wrote: »

Galvyr wrote: »

People dismissing Judeth's points are missing the forest for the trees. It's not about the weapons at the end of the day. It's the more significant implication that if they can remove this stretch goal, what else can they remove? I don't understand how anyone can be okay with unfulfilled promises. Especially when those unfulfilled promises were used to raise money for the Kickstarter. We have to be able to criticize Interipid for bad calls because that's the only way those things are going to improve. We do this because we care.

Intrepid can remove anything. For any reason. It's their game. They can also add stuff in later down the line.

I'm not bothered, we can all be bow chads.

You can't say you're doing one thing and take money for it and then back out of it. Intrepid isn't even offering a full refund; they're giving people in-store currency. It just isn't a good look.

Judeth

NiKr wrote: »

Also, I've tried looking for concrete info, but I can't find any indication of particularly crossbows or launchers being promised in the kickstarter. And wiki seems to have moved on from them and only points towards those weapons just mentioned in the context of APOC.

Do you have a link that directly shows Intrepid promising these 2 particular weapons for kickstarter backers?

All I have about it is the screenshotted quote from Steven saying it was a stretch goal, I did a quick search of the stretch goals and don’t see anything, it’s possible he could have been referring to the skins for backers. If anyone else finds any info feel free to post it.

Regardless of if it was a “promised” feature or not I’m still keeping my stance. There are lots of other features they have mentioned including that aren’t stretch goals, and removing something as small as a weapon type could be the start of them backing down on other features.

Most importantly to me, it implies a lack-luster combat system. If they don’t want to add new animations and skills to support the crossbow, that suggests there are set skills for each class and you won’t get to pick or choose your skills. This is extremely important to me because something I crave in an mmorpg is customization. I want something akin to path of exiles (doesnt need to be nearly as crazy), not some set deck of skills I have no control over. This limits player choice and creativity, something I think people forget should be part of a mmorpg. If I want to build a mage that only grabbed ice skills and uses an off-hand dagger enchanted with freeze that slows my enemies I should be able to, even if it would be a completely crap build and no one would want to do a dungeon with me.

Archers are going to be limited to only bows now, so that’s some player choice already thrown out the window, and part of ashes’ selling point is that weapons aren’t class locked. What’s the point of not being class locked if all the skills require a certain weapon to be used, and your class can only realistically use 2 weapons?

Whats the point of a big map if there’s nothing in it because they remove all this “small” stuff?

Why have a caravan system to trade across this giant map if I can’t put my goods in a friend’s caravan and ride on the seat next to them? Maybe I want to ride a mule while trading, are they going to be removed too? They talked about adding crop rotation, if they’re removing cross bows crop rotation is sure to go. Those who think removing 2 weapons isn’t a big deal won’t bat an eye at stuff like that. Is farming going to be lack luster? Is it just going to be some square plot on my homestead I throw seeds on and wait 5 hours? If that’s the case, then how interesting if life skilling really going to be??

When they start removing something like a weapon, we need to start considering what other stuff will go and how that might effect certain aspects of the game. What’s the point of claiming to be unique if they’re just going to be another reskinned copy of the other mmorpgs? They have a chance to make something freaking amazing.

Lots of people won’t care if these “small” features are removed, and alright fair enough - but these features are important to other people and can make or break the game for them. To that some would say, “Well then don’t play it.” Yeah i’ve been not playing a lot of mmorpgs for a long time now because they’re lacking and boring, so sorry but now that I have a chance to ask for something I can enjoy i’m going to. For those who don’t care about this stuff being removed or not I have to ask, how is having more going to hurt? Other than waiting a little longer to play. I doubt anyone is going to complain when the game is out that they have too many options, if anything it would make it more fun to play.

I think a better decision for them would be to delay these weapons rather than to forgo them all together.

(Also Mabinogi has crossbows, and guns… So why can’t Ashes?)

I do normally try to remain unbiased and I value everyone’s opinions, I also proofread my posts and comments like 10 times each, so forgive me if I got a bit passionate in my message here. Its only because I desperately want an mmorpg I can call home, and i’m worried if they start removing all this stuff my home is just going to be foundation and some plywood. <- bit of an exaggeration to jest

Judeth

Natasha wrote: »

Intrepid can remove anything. For any reason. It's their game. They can also add stuff in later down the line.

Its not “their” game, we’re the ones paying for the product, its our game. This isn’t a sandbox and they’re building a sand castle while I stand there and suggest they add a moat.

Noaani

Judeth wrote: »

Are we to expect more shortcuts in the future?

We can only hope this will be the case - if those shortcuts take the form of "let's simply not spend time on this thing, and maybe we can add it in to the game at a later time".

Your suggestion of making crossbows only available in high level nodes is missing the point. The point is to not spend time on them, and having them only available to specific nodes still requires that time be spent.

Talents

Judeth wrote: »

Natasha wrote: »

Intrepid can remove anything. For any reason. It's their game. They can also add stuff in later down the line.

Its not “their” game, we’re the ones paying for the product, its our game. This isn’t a sandbox and they’re building a sand castle while I stand there and suggest they add a moat.

Damn, someone tell Steven his and John's millions invested in the game isn't needed. Judeth is ready to fund the development all on his own.

Judeth

Noaani wrote: »

Your suggestion of making crossbows only available in high level nodes is missing the point. The point is to not spend time on them, and having them only available to specific nodes still requires that time be spent.

This made me chuckle. Touché. 😆

I mentioned it because I think its a good idea and a solid reason to spend time on them, as it would give more reasons to level up a scientific node, or to be a crafter in a scientific node.

George_Black

Galvyr wrote: »

People dismissing Judeth's points are missing the forest for the trees. It's not about the weapons at the end of the day. It's the more significant implication that if they can remove this stretch goal, what else can they remove? I don't understand how anyone can be okay with unfulfilled promises. Especially when those unfulfilled promises were used to raise money for the Kickstarter. We have to be able to criticize Interipid for bad calls because that's the only way those things are going to improve. We do this because we care.

You behave like you are some kind of important share holder. The studio doesnt owe you anything. You accepted the terms and they will also give credit for the skins.

They are developing a game. You are just a forum user who may have donated money for the opportunity to play the game during tests. Stop acting like IS is accountable to you.
You want an mmo. They make an mmo. They are not making YOUR mmo with their money.

Ludullu

Judeth wrote: »

Lots of people won’t care if these “small” features are removed, and alright fair enough - but these features are important to other people and can make or break the game for them. To that some would say, “Well then don’t play it.” Yeah i’ve been not playing a lot of mmorpgs for a long time now because they’re lacking and boring, so sorry but now that I have a chance to ask for something I can enjoy i’m going to. For those who don’t care about this stuff being removed or not I have to ask, how is having more going to hurt? Other than waiting a little longer to play. I doubt anyone is going to complain when the game is out that they have too many options, if anything it would make it more fun to play.

And I'm pretty much watching the owpvp system disappear in front of my eyes with almost every new dev stream. And I will most likely not play the game on release if it is "gone". But that's a whole system, while weapons are just a fraction of their whole system.

I'm just trying not to draw a line from a point, because I hate when people do that. While twitter is obviously a hellhole, I do think that it represents the worst possible extrapolations that people like to do. And twitter is damn full with people seeing one thing and then extrapolating into the worst possible direction, then thinking that this direction is somehow reality (though no indication of such thing ever happened) and then they argue their ass off against that direction.

Rn, to me, it seems that you're doing exactly that. There's obviously a chance that they remove more features or go back on more promises in the future. But I'd prefer to worry about those if they come, rather than panicking rn.

Also, "having more" hurts when we're talking about a game that has already promised a shitton of stuff and has yet to deliver on the absolute majority of that stuff. We could assume that Intrepid have, realistically, only worked on the game for maybe a year or two, due to super small team early on and then covid messing with stuff. But then it would mean that we still have 5+ years of development ahead of us. And at those time scales I'm almost sure that quite a few things will either get delayed by a lot of removed completely. And right now I'd prefer if those were little things rather than big core systems.

Judeth

George_Black wrote: »

You behave like you are some kind of important share holder. The studio doesnt owe you anything. You accepted the terms and they will also give credit for the skins.

They are developing a game. You are just a forum user who may have donated money for the opportunity to play the game during tests. Stop acting like IS is accountable to you.
You want an mmo. They make an mmo. They are not making YOUR mmo with their money.

Talents wrote: »

Judeth wrote: »

Natasha wrote: »

Intrepid can remove anything. For any reason. It's their game. They can also add stuff in later down the line.

Its not “their” game, we’re the ones paying for the product, its our game. This isn’t a sandbox and they’re building a sand castle while I stand there and suggest they add a moat.

Damn, someone tell Steven his and John's millions invested in the game isn't needed. Judeth is ready to fund the development all on his own.

A small correction, I am in fact a woman.

It’s astonishing to me that some people can’t comprehend that Ashes of Creation is a product, and Steven isn’t solely funding the game, and he intends to get back any amount of money ten-fold of what he invested into the development of this game once it launches. Its also a shame that people don’t understand that these forums exist for us to discuss the game, its development, and any concerns we have. Just because people have the nerve to actually use the forum for what its made for, doesn’t mean they are acting entitled.

Judeth

NiKr wrote: »

And I'm pretty much watching the owpvp system disappear in front of my eyes with almost every new dev stream. And I will most likely not play the game on release if it is "gone". But that's a whole system, while weapons are just a fraction of their whole system.

I'm just trying not to draw a line from a point, because I hate when people do that. While twitter is obviously a hellhole, I do think that it represents the worst possible extrapolations that people like to do. And twitter is damn full with people seeing one thing and then extrapolating into the worst possible direction, then thinking that this direction is somehow reality (though no indication of such thing ever happened) and then they argue their ass off against that direction.

Rn, to me, it seems that you're doing exactly that. There's obviously a chance that they remove more features or go back on more promises in the future. But I'd prefer to worry about those if they come, rather than panicking rn.

Also, "having more" hurts when we're talking about a game that has already promised a shitton of stuff and has yet to deliver on the absolute majority of that stuff. We could assume that Intrepid have, realistically, only worked on the game for maybe a year or two, due to super small team early on and then covid messing with stuff. But then it would mean that we still have 5+ years of development ahead of us. And at those time scales I'm almost sure that quite a few things will either get delayed by a lot of removed completely. And right now I'd prefer if those were little things rather than big core systems.

Fair points, I can agree with you. Though personally, I think bringing up any concern major or small, is always worth discussing so that the developers know what’s on our minds (assuming they read the forum posts). I also think that voicing concerns about potential let downs is important, because being its easier to avoid something than it is to fix it. If everyone waits till its too late to say “Hey I don’t like this.” Then well, it’ll be too late.

Edit: didn’t end quote

Galvyr

George_Black wrote: »

Galvyr wrote: »

People dismissing Judeth's points are missing the forest for the trees. It's not about the weapons at the end of the day. It's the more significant implication that if they can remove this stretch goal, what else can they remove? I don't understand how anyone can be okay with unfulfilled promises. Especially when those unfulfilled promises were used to raise money for the Kickstarter. We have to be able to criticize Interipid for bad calls because that's the only way those things are going to improve. We do this because we care.

You behave like you are some kind of important share holder. The studio doesnt owe you anything. You accepted the terms and they will also give credit for the skins.

They are developing a game. You are just a forum user who may have donated money for the opportunity to play the game during tests. Stop acting like IS is accountable to you.
You want an mmo. They make an mmo. They are not making YOUR mmo with their money.

This kind of mindset is so diametrically opposed to YOUR own interests. You are also a customer. We are in this together. Interpid wants feedback all the time. I'm simply giving my perspective and advocating for the consumer. I don't understand why people are so dismissive of forum members simply criticizing Intrepid about anything. Criticism is necessary and appreciated.

George_Black

Galvyr wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

Galvyr wrote: »

People dismissing Judeth's points are missing the forest for the trees. It's not about the weapons at the end of the day. It's the more significant implication that if they can remove this stretch goal, what else can they remove? I don't understand how anyone can be okay with unfulfilled promises. Especially when those unfulfilled promises were used to raise money for the Kickstarter. We have to be able to criticize Interipid for bad calls because that's the only way those things are going to improve. We do this because we care.

You behave like you are some kind of important share holder. The studio doesnt owe you anything. You accepted the terms and they will also give credit for the skins.

They are developing a game. You are just a forum user who may have donated money for the opportunity to play the game during tests. Stop acting like IS is accountable to you.
You want an mmo. They make an mmo. They are not making YOUR mmo with their money.

This kind of mindset is so diametrically opposed to YOUR own interests. You are also a customer. We are in this together. Interpid wants feedback all the time. I'm simply giving my perspective and advocating for the consumer. I don't understand why people are so dismissive of forum members simply criticizing Intrepid about anything. Criticism is necessary and appreciated.

A customer? You are playing videogames mate. You are not hiring contractors to build your home.
Talk about core designs and we can have a discussion.
Cast doubt on the integrity of the development because they did not include crossbows and potion launchers, and Ill laught at you.

Veeshan

Solvryn wrote: »

Natasha wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Also we haven't ACTUALLY gotten any progress on Tulnar.

Good, we don't want the killing to begin too soon.

That is a Tulnar.

yeah the tulnar doing the killing on the other races :P pesky invaders coming back to tulnars lands :P

Galvyr

What would I be other than a customer? I'm not playing a Ranger, this decision doesn't affect me personally. I'm just saying that this decision sets a precedent and it's a precedent that I personally think is a bad one. I'm not questioning the integrity of the development. I'm questioning the choice to remove a section of the game and the possible controversy that can arise from that choice. Intrepid is certainly better than 99% of other game companies, but that doesn't mean they're perfect. No one is perfect.

Judeth

George_Black wrote: »

A customer? You are playing videogames mate. You are not hiring contractors to build your home.
Talk about core designs and we can have a discussion.
Cast doubt on the integrity of the development because they did not include crossbows and potion launchers, and Ill laught at you.

We are customers, we’re they buyers of this product. People don’t make games and charge you a fee (monthly/box/cash shop) for charity. They will make a return on investment.

You can feel free to laugh, because i’m laughing at anyone who feels the need to demean those of us who understand the value of constructive feedback. Try to be more like the people here who are able to disagree while maintaining a healthy conversation and attitude.

Thank you

Taleof2Cities

Judeth wrote: »

We are customers, we’re they buyers of this product. People don’t make games and charge you a fee (monthly/box/cash shop) for charity. They will make a return on investment.

You can feel free to laugh, because i’m laughing at anyone who feels the need to demean those of us who understand the value of constructive feedback. Try to be more like the people here who are able to disagree while maintaining a healthy conversation and attitude.

Thank you

Yes, George's delivery can be brusque at times ... but his point is still valid.

Drawing a conclusion (that other promised features might go missing) may be crossing the line from "constructive feedback" over to "slippery slope".

That's how the OP was framed at least.

WHIT3ROS3

So with crossbows and potion launchers put to one side for now. It still means that there are 16 different weapon types listed in the wiki (with some of them offering 1-handed and 2-handed options).

Axes (One and two handed).
Bows.
Clubs.
Daggers.
Hammers.
Lances.
Maces (One and two handed).
Orbs.
Polearms/Halberds.
Scepters.
Shields.
Spears (One-handed).
Spellbooks.
Staves.
Swords/Rapiers (One and two handed).
Wands.

Interestingly, out of those 16 options, there are only 5 (marked in bold) that I can see that will offer ranged abilities. Unless other weapons are also being given ranged options. (like throwing daggers and axes or significant gap closers and leap attacks)

Judeth

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

So with crossbows and potion launchers put to one side for now. It still means that there are 16 different weapon types listed in the wiki (with some of them offering 1-handed and 2-handed options).

Axes (One and two handed).
Bows.
Clubs.
Daggers.
Hammers.
Lances.
Maces (One and two handed).
Orbs.
Polearms/Halberds.
Scepters.
Shields.
Spears (One-handed).
Spellbooks.
Staves.
Swords/Rapiers (One and two handed).
Wands.

Interestingly, out of those 16 options, there are only 5 (marked in bold) that I can see that will offer ranged abilities. Unless other weapons are also being given ranged options. (like throwing daggers and axes or significant gap closers and leap attacks)

Yeah, and unfortunately only one out of those 5 seems to be for the archer class, the rest are for mages. I think they will have different types of bows (longbows/shortbows), but those options are still pretty limiting. I assume the archer primary class is supposed to mainly focus on ranged attacks.

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