Military Node Only Building - Training Hall

There has been an ongoing debate for years as to why or why not DPS meters should or should not be in Ashes of Creation. There are big pros and big cons, and I definitely agree that DPS meters can be used as a tool to ostracize less skilled players and make it more difficult for them to get into groups, especially in a game where server reputation will matter. However, one of the big pros of the DPS meter is that everyone can use it to improve, learning a better rotation of abilities, thereby helping the less skilled players get better, and improving their server reputation.

My idea is that the Military Node could have a building called the Training Hall. I'm suggesting Military Node only due to the thematic nature of the node and getting better at combat. This would be the one place in the entire game that would have something similar to a DPS meter. Some sort of interface that a player could choose to activate, and it record their abilities and damage for however long the player attacked a training dummy. Then allow the player to share the output if needed, either from being able to send the output to someone else in the game or streaming it.

With the DPS meter being confined to this one location, players would still get the benefit of being able to use it in a positive way. This would enable them to get better at their rotation, but the negative of them doing less than optimal damage to a boss, it being pointed out and them being shunned for it would be negated.

This would in no way be meant to replace any already currently planned Military Node buildings. Maybe this functionality could be added to a building that's already planned?

It may end up being a problem that numbers are shown anywhere, depending on how people look at it. Because guilds or groups could still ask for the person's DPS dummy numbers as a way to gatekeep. Maybe it would be better to have the dummies there and not show numbers? Only being a way for players to practice the combo mechanic of working together to master stacking debuffs and buffs?

As a guild leader, I would much rather see something like this in the game, than something like the DPS meters for Final Fantasy 14 be developed as a third party tool. I really like the idea of not having any addons or third party overlays.

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Comments

Leshida

I like the concept of it being confined to a training hall rather than everywhere. Makes it feels more immersive to actually practice, too.

While thematically it makes sense to be included in a military node, I feel like the concept of training-dummies is simple enough it may not make sense to be military-only. Any farmer can throw some sticks and hay into a sack to make a 'dummy'. But perhaps the military one is the only dummy type that will show the number feedback, whereas other areas can have dummies but wouldn't have the exact feedback. More akin to combo practicing vs hard number evaluation.

lemulet

I like the idea of it being at a Training hall in a military node.

I would even add that if you want to use it while not being a citizen, the mayor could add a tax to the use of it. Giving not only utility but also a revenue to the Military Nodes.

As the training hall gets upgraded, more details could be added to the meters. For exemple, you could have statistics on the amount of status effect, CCs, healing, etc. Maybe also make it so you can practice as a party or raid as the node levels up.

At a metropolis, maybe this could be a way to practice custom encounters with a party where you spawn a small squad of automaton to practice beating them efficiently.

I also dislike the breaking of immersion of third party tools or meters in the UI. I much prefer something immersive that brings people together. Black desert online doesn't have numbers or dps meter, so people gather up in an arena and do a lot of testing. Adding tools to that testing in the context of a military node makes a lot of sense and would make the type of people who likes to figure out optimization have a place to gether in game.

Dr_Agon

It's another good reason to consider a military node. If it can be done like this I'd love to see it. As above, I don't like dps meters taking up my UI. It's been discussed extensively, so I'll leave it at that. I also like Mew's idea that a mayor could tax non-citizens to use it.

Kilion

I might suggest NOT putting a specific number on it even though that might have been calculated in the background.

Taking the Military Node - theme approach is a good idea imo but I would rather say, make it a challenger system.
You can pay to fight in a series of consecutive battles or against a specific monster that basically are indicative of a certain amount of damage being done, but not just purely that, they should require proper rotations and understanding of archetype mechanics in general. If you manage to beat a challenge, you get promoted a rank and unlock a bigger challenge. If others want to access your rank they can inquire about it at the challengers hall where you took the test for a fee.

Why am I suggesting it that way?
Because Steven has clearly stated that he is strictly against putting out numbers like DPS.

Quote from the Wiki: My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed

What role DPS meters provide in online communities that I've noticed in the past my experiences: they can be a bit toxic, they can be a bit exclusionary; and that's why we don't want the DPS meters.

So for the people who still want at least some indication whether someone is able to make the necessary damage for XYZ dungeon, they can go down to the Military Node with their candidates, sign them up for an enemy of said dungeon and see how they fair against it to make up their mind.

That also would have the fun side effect that the artisan class hunter could earn bounties for catching specific creatures for the arena. Or to make that a specific type of arena related quests for military Nodes. In any case, you get the idea.

It has to be more than just a place where you can see a number being calculated.

WuqingYe

I realllly want training dummies! It's hard to keep track of trying out new rotations or spells when either a monster dies too quickly, or, the monster is too beefy and you're busy trying to stay alive lol Training dummies are a nice, relaxing way of practicing hits out!

TyranthraxusEQ

From just down the same page on the wiki...

Combat logs

There are combat logs in Ashes of Creation.[16]

We will be providing combat data for individual players in their chat window, that players can filter and analyze for themselves. The goal is to mitigate and make the practice less prevalent through the ease that DPS meters provide. Also to place actionable enforcement for players who attempt to circumvent the decision by use of 3rd party programs, for which we will be monitoring.[17] – Steven Sharif

Parsers will exist, overlays aren't necessary.

Depraved

why is everybody posting here from your guild? very sus XDD

anyways I like training dummies too, but if they are only in military nodes, are they accessible to anybody or just players with a military node citizenship?

also, what if there arent rotations and skills are just situational o-o

Solvryn

The design will be absolutely shit if the skills are always sequenced.

Songcaller

The training hall would be the arena. You can learn everything needed in other pvp experiences except how to perfect your champion. You might not want mayor but you might want to stop another contender.

Dracobringer

Depraved wrote: »

why is everybody posting here from your guild? very sus XDD

anyways I like training dummies too, but if they are only in military nodes, are they accessible to anybody or just players with a military node citizenship?

also, what if there arent rotations and skills are just situational o-o

Because I posted the link to the forum thread in my guild discord, asking people to give their feedback on the idea lol. It would be better if they were accessible to everyone, because of what they do, but I could see them requiring citizenship if they proved to be useful enough to warrant it. There very likely will be a rotation and skills that are situational. For example, if you're a mage casting at a 40-man raid boss and you know it's not going to attack you back, you would be using your highest dps rotation. If you were in a dungeon with a much small 8-man group, you would use crowd controlling abilities on occasion to lighten the healing load or make sure the group didn't wipe in a larger than normal pull.

Solvryn wrote: »

The design will be absolutely shit if the skills are always sequenced.

They have already shown different classes/abilities having stacking effects for debuffing an enemy in their class showcases, specifically mentioning it during the cleric and tank ones for sure.

Neurath wrote: »

The training hall would be the arena. You can learn everything needed in other pvp experiences except how to perfect your champion. You might not want mayor but you might want to stop another contender.

People don't like to lose. Trying to learn how to properly coordinate to time an ability combo or learning how an ability performs in general would be a terrible experience while you had two or three other people attacking you, trying their hardest to end the fight as soon as possible.

Songcaller

Yeah I understand the logic but most of us will be in groups. I'm not even sure how much solo will be possible due to other feedback elsewhere.

In all my pvp experience I've never struggled to learn my class. I've never needed training dummies, training halls or training gloves. I would even argue that a hand-held player would not hold ground like a player forged in open world.

Dracobringer

Neurath wrote: »

In all my pvp experience I've never struggled to learn my class. I've never needed training dummies, training halls or training gloves. I would even argue that a hand-held player would not hold ground like a player forged in open world.

Not everyone learns that fast though. Plus, with Ashes, it will probably be worth knowing how to play your base archetype and multiple class combinations, along with the better augments for those combinations. There's way more to learn about combat in Ashes than most other MMOs. Yeah, it's definitely true that live PvP experience can't be replaced by hitting a training dummy for hours, but you have to walk before you can run, and getting frustrated while you try to learn the basics isn't something a lot of people enjoy.

Songcaller

Right. I agree with the scope but there's an issue. The best pvp players will learn the skills of others, not just their own. It sounds to me like people would have to spend months or years in a training environment when they should be learning and having fun in the general game.

I don't feel segregated training halls are worthwhile except for champions because we can't use champions anywhere else but martial arena.

Liniker

I've been making this suggestion for a few years, it's a similar concept to yours

Black Desert Online has these small open world arenas outside major towns, its just a spot where upon entering the zone you are flagged for combat, and you can insta-respawn there with no penalties

I really, REALLY wished Ashes did something like this.... every node, not only military, could build these places, and this would be different than ranked arenas that are instanced, this is just a spot in the open world for people to practice and your suggestion with having DPS meter allowed inside this places could also be a thing

Dracobringer

Liniker wrote: »

I've been making this suggestion for a few years, it's a similar concept to yours

Black Desert Online has these small open world arenas outside major towns, its just a spot where upon entering the zone you are flagged for combat, and you can insta-respawn there with no penalties

I really, REALLY wished Ashes did something like this.... every node, not only military, could build these places, and this would be different than ranked arenas that are instanced, this is just a spot in the open world for people to practice and your suggestion with having DPS meter allowed inside this places could also be a thing

Your suggestion is very different and unrelated. Please stay on topic for what this thread is about

Dracobringer

Neurath wrote: »

Right. I agree with the scope but there's an issue. The best pvp players will learn the skills of others, not just their own. It sounds to me like people would have to spend months or years in a training environment when they should be learning and having fun in the general game.

I don't feel segregated training halls are worthwhile except for champions because we can't use champions anywhere else but martial arena.

The training hall would not be solely for PvP though. One of the main goals would be using it to teach lesser skilled and/or new players how better to do their rotation, so they're more valuable in groups, and improve their reputation on the server for being good at the game. Rotations matter some in PvP, but PvP is much more chaotic, in my opinion, than say being a mage and dpsing a raid boss with no risk of being attacked back.

I keep going back to that example because it's a very classic scenario of a backline dps needing to pump numbers to make sure a raid boss dies.

Goalid

I want to see groups of 8 practicing combos on a training dummy with the current vfx, just absolutely annihilate one.

Songcaller

I'm not convinced we will get rotations but I'm also not convinced we won't. I think rotations can be created but I had hoped for more reactionary game play.

Anyway, i agree the best way to learn is repetition. I'm not sure whether people will raid with random players...seems a bit dodgy in a pvx game. It would be beneficial to learn the encounters first hand. A rotation can be done on a training dummy (which I also don't use lol).

Make the training hall for martial champions and stick training dummies outside. I feel that's a win for all.

Dracobringer

Neurath wrote: »

Make the training hall for martial champions and stick training dummies outside. I feel that's a win for all.

I definitely agree that having a place to practice commanding or playing as their champion is a good idea also, as it would be a poor experience to have to learn how to use it with mayorship on the line, but that's a different topic than players getting feedback on their dps and rotation also.

Songcaller

Yeah but you can't ignore the martial half of military node and be selective in what you train. You said it wasn't all about pvp and added pve, I merely added the ability for those who seek mayorship to also have access.

I see Military Nodes to be like Sparta.

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