Sieging nodes, but can we raid them?

Probably a feature that should be included after launch as an update to prevent scope creep.

We know we can destroy a node and we know we have monster coin events to damage a node but it would be great if we could have the ability to raid a node. Working along the same lines as a siege except on a much shorter duration with more limited consequences.

A group of players have the ability to band together and declare a raid on a node. The raid options can include raiding a specific building like the mayor hall, residents buildings or resource buildings, the Raid has the option to choose multiple buildings but the size of the raid is dependent on what the raiding party declares as their raid target. So for example to raid the resource depot it takes a minimum of 16 players, to raid the the resource depot and the residents buildings takes a minimum of 24, each additional building adding 8 until a max of 40. So they can only raid up to 5 structures since the minimum to raid any structure is 8 with the exception of the resource depot which requires a minimum of 16 instead of 8.

To start the raid a raid a group must lock in to the slots and declare the buildings they are raiding within their target node. Once declared a notice goes out to the node providing a 1 hour window (might need more, maybe less who knows, needs to be tested to balance) that tells the node being raided that they are getting raided and that they need to put together a force. Make it so the defenders can put together 30% more than the attackers maximum force. So if the raiders attack with 8 allow 12 defenders, attacking with 40 would allow 52 defenders. The maximum raiding party would need to be 40.

So a group decides to raid a supply depot, they would need 16 players to lock in as the confirmed players for the raid, then the notification to the node would be deployed and the defenders would have x amount of time to gather a defending party. For example if a raiding party attacked the resource depot with 16 players successfully they would temporarily decrease the capacity of the resource depot for x days, maybe 2?, and loot a % of the available resources within the resource depot.

If they attacked the residents they could loot a % of gatherables and gold (maybe items)
If they attacked the mayor hall perhaps the mayor could have reduced node powers and reduced abilities to due their mayoral duties (like changes to taxes or building cost could go up temperarily)

the consequence would be the player becomes an automatic enemy of the state until the mayor clears it or an election cycle has passed.

The raids can only take place during server prime time windows.

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Comments

Songcaller

I'd rather just turn up with my lads during a node war and fight in the streets. Don't really want another objectives or rail road pvp event.

Voxtrium

Neurath wrote: »

I'd rather just turn up with my lads during a node war and fight in the streets. Don't really want another objectives or rail road pvp event.

Rail road PVP event?
This gives an option for conflict outside of literally destroying what is likely 6+ months of work plus hopefully destroying a node is really difficult so raids like this could both benefit the likelihood of a successful siege while also encouraging gameplay outside of the annihilation of that node, also means smaller groups can make an impact.

Songcaller

Yeah, I'm not against raids - I will raid a ton more than I will siege, however, I don't need an official 'raid' I usually make my own pvp entertainment. Sometimes, killing in the name and killing in the streets is the only reward my lads want. We don't even need to gain resources.

Arya_Yeshe

Sounds fun if the monster coins are used for pillaging, for a short period of time, without having to destroy the node.

But the monster coins are pretty much a concept for now, what we know is that the monsters will be used to attack.

Voxtrium

@Neurath sometimes pvp is just fun and i agree you don't need a reward for it every time. However I am thinking about late game in AOC, some guilds will emerge as bullies and one of the only ways to punish them as a small group rn is caravans, I would love to see an additional option of being able to raid the node they are a patron of.

Songcaller

Yeah, our aims are aligned but I don't want to raid in prime time only. Raids would be suicidal at prime time against a superior foe. You need the ability to raid when you are strong and the enemy is weakened.

Arya_Yeshe

Neurath wrote: »

Yeah, our aims are aligned but I don't want to raid in prime time only. Raids would be suicidal at prime time against a superior foe. You need the ability to raid when you are strong and the enemy is weakened.

Each PvP encounter has its value, regardless of whether it results in defeat, as every time we learn something new.

The meta PvPer doesn't give a F.

Voxtrium

Neurath wrote: »

Yeah, our aims are aligned but I don't want to raid in prime time only. Raids would be suicidal at prime time against a superior foe. You need the ability to raid when you are strong and the enemy is weakened.

Hmm you could expand the window to be longer but not 24/7 as that would only be annoying not fun. Say an extra 3 hours on both sides, or 6 hours on the backend

Songcaller

Yeah so long as not everything is in prime time. We already have objectives in prime time for node wars and guild wars. I didn't want raids to be official - just another trench of the particular wars. We can kill in war 24/7 and where better to kill than in the opposition node streets?

Ludullu

Remove the impact on residents' belongings and I'm all for this as an expansion feature.

As for timing, you could have the "prepare yourself, node" period just be longer in the off-hours. Primetime period could be 30-45 minutes, while off-time would range from 1-1.5h up to, say, 3h. This way the node would have more time to prepare the defense when there's less active population online.

Voxtrium

@NiKr Being able to raid residents specifically though would create the ability to potentially target out mayors, bully enemy guild leaders and most importantly, encourage players to abandon their node if they were constantly having their residences attacked and the node they were in was consistently failing to protect their goods. I could see how this feature could be used as a targeting mechanic that is abused, but how could you include the residences without allowing it to be a targeting/bully mechanic? Also maybe its good that there is a semi target targeting mechanic like this?

Songcaller

It all depends on how tough the npc guards are. Where the npc guards are and how many npc guards there are. If the npc guards can call backup the fight would be an epic pvx fight.

Voxtrium

Neurath wrote: »

It all depends on how tough the npc guards are. Where the npc guards are and how many npc guards there are. If the npc guards can call backup the fight would be an epic pvx fight.

I would definitely let some of the guards join, I wouldn't make them cracked insane or anything, but maybe like an elite unit equivalent or something.

Ludullu

Voxtrium wrote: »

Being able to raid residents specifically though would create the ability to potentially target out mayors, bully enemy guild leaders and most importantly, encourage players to abandon their node if they were constantly having their residences attacked and the node they were in was consistently failing to protect their goods. I could see how this feature could be used as a targeting mechanic that is abused, but how could you include the residences without allowing it to be a targeting/bully mechanic? Also maybe its good that there is a semi target targeting mechanic like this?

Node subterfuge should be enough to encourage people to leave. Raids could lead to faster node decay or complete shutdown of particular important buildings or anything of that sort. But as soon as you give the ability to raid player housing within a node (and steal their shit) - you'll get yourself a shitton of complaints of "I was offline and my resources got cleared out somehow. Is this a bug or smth?"

Node sieges are a primetime huge event that has several days of buildup. Your suggestion is as random occurrence, potentially in the middle of the night, that leads to disappearance of player belongings. There'd be way more bullying than proper raiding. And that bullying would be done in the most uncomfortable hours for the node's citizens.

I know this because I've done this in L2 with its fortress system, except there you'd just take the fortress ownership away, rather than resources, so in a way even that was less punishing for the players. But majority of sieges would happen deep in the night, so that there'd be the smallest chance of proper defense of the fort. Node raids would be the same.

Songcaller

In my mind, raiding is killing people in the home territory. Not pillaging the home territory. I realise raid can have two meanings but I want the pvp raids, not the pillaging. Caravans are for pillaging (might catch a caravan during a raid though which I would pillage).

Voxtrium

NiKr wrote: »

Voxtrium wrote: »

Being able to raid residents specifically though would create the ability to potentially target out mayors, bully enemy guild leaders and most importantly, encourage players to abandon their node if they were constantly having their residences attacked and the node they were in was consistently failing to protect their goods. I could see how this feature could be used as a targeting mechanic that is abused, but how could you include the residences without allowing it to be a targeting/bully mechanic? Also maybe its good that there is a semi target targeting mechanic like this?

Node subterfuge should be enough to encourage people to leave. Raids could lead to faster node decay or complete shutdown of particular important buildings or anything of that sort. But as soon as you give the ability to raid player housing within a node (and steal their shit) - you'll get yourself a shitton of complaints of "I was offline and my resources got cleared out somehow. Is this a bug or smth?"

Node sieges are a primetime huge event that has several days of buildup. Your suggestion is as random occurrence, potentially in the middle of the night, that leads to disappearance of player belongings. There'd be way more bullying than proper raiding. And that bullying would be done in the most uncomfortable hours for the node's citizens.

I know this because I've done this in L2 with its fortress system, except there you'd just take the fortress ownership away, rather than resources, so in a way even that was less punishing for the players. But majority of sieges would happen deep in the night, so that there'd be the smallest chance of proper defense of the fort. Node raids would be the same.

Right but setting up the raids to be available for a slightly longer duration than server prime time would help with that player feeling. Although you are right losing personal shit would really suck, can't be on 7 days a week for every raid window, just the prime time window would be excessive to be on for every time as it is. Perhaps the residential buildings could be damaged requiring gold to fix up. That would probably be a good alternative

Songcaller

Thank The Sandal God for the 24/7 war/killing. I believe my raids can be at any time. I'm not about stolen goods or damaging buildings. Just the killing of other players in a war situation.

tautau

Since the raiders can spend days (or weeks) planning the attack, the defenders ought to get the same planning window, so raids (as described by the OP) ought to have a 5 - 7 day declaration period. In other words, the time ought to be fixed and announced that far ahead. Fair is fair, right? Otherwise the raiders will just announce at 4AM, raid at 5 AM, and the node has no opportunity to defend.

Also let us remember 'risk vs reward.' As proposed there is no risk to the attackers, only to the defenders. A 'raid scroll' should be required of the attackers/raiders with a cost dependent upon the number of buildings that they intend to raid. If a building yields 500 gold in plunder, then the scroll ought to cost about half that. So if they are going to raid 4 buildings, they need to come up with 1000 gold. If they win, they double their money. If they lose then they are risking the scroll cost, risk vs reward. The scroll cost should go to the node, so if the node wins, they get rewarded. That seems more fair and balanced. As proposed by the OP, the cost was all on the node's side and the reward and advantage was all on the raiders' side.

Songcaller

This is why I didn't want rail roaded pvp. Cheers for blowing a server wide 24/7 war out of the water to replace it with locational pvp. I don't understand how there's any risk in a 7 day wait period for a raid at all. Its just another scripted and objective based system. If you don't want to be raided in the streets don't go to war.

Voxtrium

tautau wrote: »

Since the raiders can spend days (or weeks) planning the attack, the defenders ought to get the same planning window, so raids (as described by the OP) ought to have a 5 - 7 day declaration period. In other words, the time ought to be fixed and announced that far ahead. Fair is fair, right? Otherwise the raiders will just announce at 4AM, raid at 5 AM, and the node has no opportunity to defend.

Also let us remember 'risk vs reward.' As proposed there is no risk to the attackers, only to the defenders. A 'raid scroll' should be required of the attackers/raiders with a cost dependent upon the number of buildings that they intend to raid. If a building yields 500 gold in plunder, then the scroll ought to cost about half that. So if they are going to raid 4 buildings, they need to come up with 1000 gold. If they win, they double their money. If they lose then they are risking the scroll cost, risk vs reward. The scroll cost should go to the node, so if the node wins, they get rewarded. That seems more fair and balanced. As proposed by the OP, the cost was all on the node's side and the reward and advantage was all on the raiders' side.

the risk is becoming enemy of the state, depending on the node that could be a massive loss. Think about trading goods, crafting, gathering and dungeons in the ZOI of that node.
Also the raid window would not be 24/7 it should perhaps be longer than the server prime time winbdow but not 24/7 to prevent the exact thing you descirbe.

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