Pimp My Caravan (Ideas for Caravan quests & Mechanics)

Hello there!

Since we haven't seen much of the caravan system since A1, I'd like to discuss some possible design ideas how to make Caravans engaging, more interesting and worthwhile for raiders and defenders alike, as well as designing rewards in a way, that it ensures even players of higher levels might consider taking up an escorting request of a lower level player.

Let's dive into it.

See the Wiki about Caravans for further context because obviously I don't want to reset the whole development process but much rather add to what is already planned or propose small modifications.

Scenario of what I imagine: Boonie, lv 30 player, is a highly proficient weaver and has crafted a lot of valuable lengths of fine silk that he want to sell a few Nodes over to the religious Node as their recent demand for cloth armor has been high, due to their Node promoting and that starting an event where undead wizards flood the surrounding land. Unfortunately the way for the caravan is rather dangerous, many have been raided recently by high level Highwaymen.

Boonie puts up a request for a Caravan escort of 5 people. He probably doesn't have as much funding as a Lv 50 player but since the goods in the Caravan are very valuable at the destination, to which they are supposed to go to, the reputation reward is pretty decent, also helping lower level players rewards the defenders with some bonus reputation from the city Boonie is a citizen of.
Boonie requires the leader of the party to be a Rouge Archetype, so the Caravan can be augmented for stealth. With these preparations Boonie's Caravan launches and successfully reaches its goal as the defenders was able to avoid one group of raiders and fend off another. Additionally they found a small chest by the roadside with a small amount of extra loot.

Caravan Leaders

Caravan leaders are the leader of the group that is put in charge of defending a Caravan. The Leader of a Caravan group cannot change once the quest/event starts, it cannot be changed from the requirements someone has made on the quest board. Beyond just being the group leader, they could be the source of the augmentation that is applied on the Caravan. If so, they become a greater target for raiders to disable the augmentations, as such it makes sense to increase the reward share they receive at the end of a successful escort quest. On the other hand there should also be a increased death penalty or a increased drop in reputation if the caravan quest fails under ones leadership.

Caravan Augmentation

As far as I am aware this is not a thing currently, but one that could add some interesting spins and information to Caravan quests, both for raiders and defenders. The point of being able to augment a Caravan is to increase the chances that it reaches its goal, but this will not come for free, there should be some sort of material costs associated with that or additional risks.

How to modify the Caravan?
There are 3 options I see for this:

a class based item in the Carpentry recipe book, that can be added to a Caravan cart as a permanent active or passive option
The leader of a Caravan defense team can augment the Caravan
one consumable item (like an enchantment scroll) can be used per caravan quest / or one per set amount of distance travelled

I think independent of the options mentioned above we can take the archetypes as a guideline to come up with a few ideas how a Caravan can be augmented. So here are a few examples. A caravan should be limited to 1 or with high investment costs be allowed 2 augments of the same archetype

Bard
> In formation (aura; passive buff): Increases movement speed of allies near the caravan 10%; reduces to 5% during battle
> Call for Help (active): Double the objective range for the Caravan for 2 minutes. Players who decide to join as defenders will be rewarded with extra experience points as well as bonus reputation with the Bards Node (of which he is a citizen). Players who join as attackers will lose more reputation with the Nodes associated with that Caravan.

Cleric
> Holy Mission (aura; passive buff): Increases the maximum life points of defenders near the caravan and reduces the received magic damage by (something like) 5%
> Radiant light (active): A blinding light that reduces enemy accuracy and provides a 20s lifesteal buff to allies

Fighter
> Deadly squad (aura; passive buff): Increases the chance for critical strikes and the base physical damage done.
> Execute (active): The Leader of the defenders can execute one target player enemy with less than 10% HP. If he does, it demoralizes the all nearby raiders, reducing their damage output by 5% for 1min.

Mage
> Arcane presence (aura; passive buff): Increases the mana regeneration near the Caravan by a flat amount per second
> Chaotic eruption (active): The Caravan cart emits a wave of destructive magic that damages and knocks down nearby raiders.

Ranger
> On the lookout (aura; passive buff): The defending party receives a warning when players decide to attack the Caravan. The notification will be given as a menacing sound and a visual indicator of the rough direction from which the attackers are approaching
> Rope trap (active): Allows each party member of the Caravan to throw a net on an enemy once. An enemy hit by such an attack will have reduced movement speed and reduces evasion for 10-15 sec

Rouge
> Deathtrap (aura; passive Buff): As soon as the first raiders does damage to the Caravan it emits a poisonous cloud that deals high poison damages nearby raiders. The deathtrap will not disappear upon the defense leaders death.
> Quiet now! (active): The Caravan and its defenders become camouflaged, but their movement speed is reduced. This effect lasts for up to 1min if not cancelled by the leader. (The timer would obviously depend on the degree to which camouflage can actually hide the cravan)

Summoner
> Never alone (aura; passive buff): 2 (or maybe 3) additional NPC guards accompany the Caravan; they don't count as summons, hence they don't reduce the Summoners overall power, but he also cannot directly control them. They type of NPC depends on the region from which the Caravan sets off.
> Stampede (active): Summons 4-10 local beasts to aid the Summoner for 15 sec (number of creatures depending on the number of attackers).

Tank
> Install safe (aura; passive buff): Reduces the amount of resources lootable by 5%; increases physical resistances of nearby defenders by 2,5%
> Hold the line! (active): Transforms the Caravan into a stationary building with increased defense, that attacks the enemy with the lowest health (like a spear thrower standing on top of the Caravan). This state can be maintained for 1 min, unless the leader decides to cancel it.

There would be other things possible as well, e.g. have the caravan hide 1 particular (or random) good that is loaded in it; or have lay down traps that slow down enemies pursuing it; give it a "sprint" type ability and so on.

I would hope that depending on the situation in that region it makes sense to pick different augments for a particular escort mission. e.g. When you are transporting something through a densely populated area having a Bard with call for help would be more useful, while having a Mage in a party of people with low mana pools would do them a much greater service.

Caravan Rewards

So why defend a caravan in the first place? Let me start by saying that at any time anyone should be able to see the rewards before accepting the escort mission. These are the kinds of rewards I could imagine (of which some are already confirmed):

Player reward: A player putting up the request should be allowed to put up anything they want as a reward. e.g. A weapon smith should be allowed to put up a nice sword as a reward. On finishing the quest it would "drop" like it would have been looted from a mob, so it will be lootable according to the loot rules set by the leader.
Recipient reward: The defenders of a Caravan should be rewarded with EXP based on the distance travelled, encounters survived and nearby enemy nodes. Additionally there should be a reputation rewards based on the market price of the goods transported.
The friend of my friend...: If a player with a citizenship has put up the caravan quest, the player should be rewarded with some reputation with that city for productively engaging with one of its citizens. Additional reputation should be given if the player is considerably weaker than the defenders (e.g. 5% per 10 level difference).
Extra encounters: Being part of a caravan can become a bit boring at some point so I would like it if there were occasional encounters with hostile NPCs (PvE raids basically), rare mobs crossing the way of the caravan or small but useful treasures spawning along the route of the caravan. Maybe even scripted events that introduce quest lines. Again, I wouldn't want there to be a special event of sorts on every caravan quest but maybe a 15-20% chance of something happening would be nice.

The Highwaymen

The Highwayman is someone who specializes in Caravans. Like the Bounty Hunter, I regard it as a way to focus on a specific playing style. In this case: PvP around Caravans.

The main feature of the Highwayman "lifestyle" (of which you should only have 1) would be that 10% of all reputation gained would be transformed into Infamy within a ZOI. Infamy will reduce prices with certain traders, grant you access to better outdoor camping equipment, camouflage items for surprise attacks, non-purchasable cosmetics and access to an information dealer in taverns, who will tell you against payment things about where to find the most caravans, established trading routes or even the time when a caravan may launch so that you can target caravans for specific goods.

Thanks for reading!

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Birthday

I really like the idea

Arya_Yeshe

I will summarize, so people can have the short version

That's a lot of details, let's pin down some key details:

caravan roles, caravan buffs based on each archtype
client requests/suggest how many people should escort the caravan
caravan leader earns more but has more punishment
dealth penalties, that is against the current proposal, so you consider that would be better changing this
caravan buffs basedd on the leader's archtype

Rewards:

ability to pay the defender with items, but when the quest ends the item will be given through the looting system
Xp payout, the more you travel, the more xp the defenders will gain
reputation gain for creating courier jobs in other people's nodes
caravans should have mob events sometimes

Highwayman:

a new role
should have a new type of reputation based on caravan PvP performance
this new role and it's reputation should grant financial benefits while trading items related to caravans and stuff related to caravans

Arya_Yeshe

In a scale from -10 to +10, I will rate the ideas:

npc encounters: +10... I will strongly support npc encounters in caravans
offer items through the looting system if the caravan is sucessful: +2... I mildly support this
everything else: is a -10... I am strongly against everything else

Caravan augumentation is a hard and flat no all across the board, it limits the possilities and demands a lot of ingame development. Also, super against having suggestions about escort size, composition and roles. Everything that creates limitations in people's play styles is not ok.

The caravan npc encounters is a must have, since it brings more action and it's not crazy full of details.

I am in for anything that brings more freedom and creativity.

Arya_Yeshe

There's critical things about the caravan system that nobody is asking,

Is it possible to create a public courier request without specifying the hauler?
It's important not to worry about who will be hauling the items, and anyone who wants to take on the job should be able to see the request and pick up the items from anywhere.

When multiple people request courier pickups, will each crate containing their items be generated separately?
It would be ideal for each crate to be created, so the hauler can easily distinguish and manage them within the wagon. This would allow the hauler to pick crates from all his neighbours, from the node and then travel to where he has to deliver those crates. He should be able to hop in his wagon and pick crates in multiple places and then deliver each crate to their multiple destinations. Should be able to deliver crates to multiple storages (including freeholds) in the same travel.

Will delivery crates exist and be transferable?
Yes, they should exist, and the hauler should have the ability to transfer the crates from one wagon to another or to storage. If the hauler needs to take a break or wants to complete the delivery at a later time, they should have the freedom to do so. Additionally, there may be situations where a hauler wants to take the crates to their own freehold or for other reasons, and they should be able to do so.

Is there a collateral for each crate?
Yes, clients should specify a gold amount for each crate, and the hauler who accepts the job should have their gold held by the system until the delivery is complete. Once the crates have been delivered, the gold should be returned to the hauler, and they should receive payment for completing the job.

Can I split my goods and create 3 different courier jobs to delivered to 3 different places?
I should be able to do that and the hauler who takes the jobs should be able to have all 3 crates in the wagon/ship and deliver one by one along the way.

A system like this would enable your guild to use a single storage unit as a distribution center and deliver the crates when they deem it appropriate.

tautau

Excellent ideas, OP. I strongly support development along these lines, well done!

Spif

Caravans are going to be a scammer's paradise if "anyone" can take the job. Because that bypasses reputation tracking, unless the caravan hiring system includes a Yelp score...but even that can be gamed.

In the case of low insurance requested, the people requesting a caravan are going to get scammed by a caravan master who lets his buddies take the goods by an attack in the far off wilderness. These guys get 1000g worth of goods for a 300g insurance payment.
In the case of high insurance requested, the caravan masters are going to get scammed by people who use the caravan system to get info about when items are leaving. These people get their goods back (assuming they can kill the caravan), as well as the insurance money

This may not matter, because odds are caravans are only used for low value high volume goods that are common in certain biomes and rare/non-existent in other biomes: Iron, hardwoods, wheat, berries, etc. Rare gatherables, probably not. I'm not sure where refining fits in there, but I'd guess refining value-ups stuff while also lowering bulk (IE, 10 iron ores->1 steel bar)

Ludullu

Agree with Spif's points. Like the OP. But I still have the issue of "what's the real risk for the attacker", especially in the context of attacking caravans in faraway nodes. With more additions to the defender side, their risk/reward equation gets more complex, while the attacker's stays the same - "am I ready to decay my gear a bit for the potential of a huge reward?"

Arya_Yeshe

@Spif I can see you are not familiar with collateral in courier systems.

Collateral is a money deposit, which is deposited by hauler beforehand, if the hauler can deliver the goods then he gets his money back. If the hauler doesn't deliver the goods then the deposit will be transfered to the client instead. The hauler could pretty much steal the goods for himself, but then he won't receive his money back.

This is what makes sure the caravaneer will not even consider running a scam caravan, he will do his best to protect the goods, he will bring friends, alts, do intel, have scouts, etc. He will do everything it takes.

Arya_Yeshe

NiKr wrote: »

Agree with Spif's points. Like the OP. But I still have the issue of "what's the real risk for the attacker", especially in the context of attacking caravans in faraway nodes. With more additions to the defender side, their risk/reward equation gets more complex, while the attacker's stays the same - "am I ready to decay my gear a bit for the potential of a huge reward?"

Well, the only risk at the momment is scoring those bandit points, Stephen told about this in a stream in 2022. Between you and me, we know this puts pretty much nothing on the table.

So, if we look around then there's this weird corruption system that is a spiritual punishment for a crime, but people can freely attack caravans and it's ok... no bounty hunters will come after bandits.

I think I should win the lotery this week and then I will take a plane, visit Intrepid in person and bring some PvP insights to them! Just hire me as intern for 100 dollars a month and give me a game design position.

Arya_Yeshe

We send a question to Steven in the next stream: How close would be the caravan system compared to EVE Online courier system?

Cause EVE has the best damn courier system among all games ever period, no other system comes close. I literally made a living just by moving items around for random people and selling extra cargo.

Azherae

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

We send a question to Steven in the next stream: How close would be the caravan system compared to EVE Online courier system?

Cause EVE has the best damn courier system among all games ever period, no other system comes close. I literally made a living just by moving items around for random people and selling extra cargo.

"Is the caravan system intended to be similar to the EVE Online courier system?" might get it further.

Arya_Yeshe

Azherae wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

We send a question to Steven in the next stream: How close would be the caravan system compared to EVE Online courier system?

Cause EVE has the best damn courier system among all games ever period, no other system comes close. I literally made a living just by moving items around for random people and selling extra cargo.

"Is the caravan system intended to be similar to the EVE Online courier system?" might get it further.

Yeah, if I was going for the official momment of sending the question, I would try to make as good as yours. You wrote the final and perfect version.

Ludullu

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

So, if we look around then there's this weird corruption system that is a spiritual punishment for a crime, but people can freely attack caravans and it's ok... no bounty hunters will come after bandits.

That brings up a good point. What if BHs did in fact come after them? What if when you're deep enough into the bandit route, you get flagged against BHs and they see you on their map.

It would give more work to BHs and justify their existence even more. The bandits would have a risk related to their attacks, cause now they'd be hunted if they're successful (which would also decrease the potential abuse of the bandit system).

Arya_Yeshe

NiKr wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

So, if we look around then there's this weird corruption system that is a spiritual punishment for a crime, but people can freely attack caravans and it's ok... no bounty hunters will come after bandits.

That brings up a good point. What if BHs did in fact come after them? What if when you're deep enough into the bandit route, you get flagged against BHs and they see you on their map.

It would give more work to BHs and justify their existence even more. The bandits would have a risk related to their attacks, cause now they'd be hunted if they're successful (which would also decrease the potential abuse of the bandit system).

Something good could come out of this.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

So, if we look around then there's this weird corruption system that is a spiritual punishment for a crime, but people can freely attack caravans and it's ok... no bounty hunters will come after bandits.

That brings up a good point. What if BHs did in fact come after them? What if when you're deep enough into the bandit route, you get flagged against BHs and they see you on their map.

It would give more work to BHs and justify their existence even more. The bandits would have a risk related to their attacks, cause now they'd be hunted if they're successful (which would also decrease the potential abuse of the bandit system).

This depends on the game's design core for that. We don't know enough to say if it would work, but that's like a Tier 4 consideration so it shouldn't take priority over lower ones.

Example: This is the consideration 'hierarchy/pyramid' in Elite Dangerous.

Tier 1: Without some threat to trade hauling, there is no risk-reward. A player must be attackable while hauling.
Tier 2: Without some threat to attacking traders, there is no risk-reward, a successful pirate must build up some negative status or be restricted to a particular area to avoid this.
Tier 3: Without some specific resource deterrent to the attacker, players will manipulate the system by successfully attacking Traders and then letting others defeat them to claim the bounties.
Tier 4: Without some built up negative to the Bounty Hunters, there will be no players willing to be pirates long-term.
Tier 5: Without some limit to the positive effects of Bounty Hunting (or a strong negative effect for Piracy), players will manipulate the 'Nodes' system of that game by building up bounties on alts and then having Node-allied forces claim those bounties.

Bandit Route would end up more similar to their solution for Tier 4, which is that the Anarchy Factions in the 'Node' build up hostility toward the Bounty Hunter. In this case it would be 'Bounty Hunters building up hostility toward Bandits', by your suggestion. They'd be trackable at minimum, attackable without penalty at 'Maximum', without actually needing to be Red. They would just have a bounty on them.

The failpoint would probably be 'what does the Bandit lose, in order for the Bounty Hunter to get the reward'.

In Elite, you lose cash equal to your Bounty when you are finally taken down. Someone had to spend time earning that, or that character is 'basically lost' unless someone puts in all the time after.

In Ashes, I don't think it would be fair for a Bandit to lose gear or similar because they got a high bounty and were good at raiding caravans, but that would be the only equivalent that people wouldn't 'just disregard. Except ofc Arya's usual suggestion of 'Off to the gulag with you!' for that character, which I tentatively support.

90% of the problems inherent in open world games that try to simulate RL economies and interactions come from the fact that 'hardened criminals' mostly get to just keep going, all the way to the point where the only solution to them is to grief THEM and then you're in trouble.

I don't think the currently known (what little there is) design core for Ashes would really 'support' the idea of Bounty Hunters going after Bandit Raider players without a massive increase/commitment to the Bandit side's loss.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

I don't think the currently known (what little there is) design core for Ashes would really 'support' the idea of Bounty Hunters going after Bandit Raider players without a massive increase/commitment to the Bandit side's loss.

Yeah, we definitely don't have enough info on this. It's just that we've had several times where Steven kinda discussed potential dangers for the attackers and it's always been "well, there's decay..." (even though no other pvp events seem to have it) "...and there's the bandit progression system ones too!" (even though those are not dangers, they're just lowered rewards).

If Intrepid already have some good risk planned - great. If they don't - well, there's my current suggestion, have BHs involved in some way.

Arya_Yeshe

@Azherae another user already confirmed that, in the past, Steven already said that the caravan system would probably have collateral. But it is not in the wiki and we have no idea how anything will be implemented about caravans

I can't recall how Elite Dangerous functions and I disliked the game due to its lack of substantial content.

Let's compare real life to games?

In gaming, you have the freedom to commit any offense you desire and die, only to be reborn in the next second with barely no limitations on your actions. Consequently, the effort the victim invested in collecting and manufacturing items over several days can be lost or ruined in mere seconds, with the criminal simply respawning to continue their unrestricted behavior.

Why is it ok having days of work destroyed and the criminal stays zero seconds in jail?

No game ever implemented a Justice system, but at least in Ultima Online, I have been sent to jail multiple times and it was fun.

In AoC there's bounty hunters... but the bounty hunters are pursuing spiritually tainted people

Arya_Yeshe

@Kilion your caravan augumentation thing could be simply caravan ammo!

Let's imagine there are orbs of many colors, green, blue, yellow, pink, etc. The stagecoach, should have on top of it or on the side of the rider, something to place these orbs... these orbs would look like crystal balls... but they be colored and glow

That's all, the reinman (wagon driver) would change this ammo... could be a consumable or could be an item

This could give the augumentation you desired, but this system would be free of the limitations imposed by archtype

Kilion

NiKr wrote: »

Agree with Spif's points. Like the OP. But I still have the issue of "what's the real risk for the attacker", especially in the context of attacking caravans in faraway nodes. With more additions to the defender side, their risk/reward equation gets more complex, while the attacker's stays the same - "am I ready to decay my gear a bit for the potential of a huge reward?"

I might say that I don't want any of the extra defense for the Caravan to come for free. It should cost quite a bit to have a camouflage caravan, but since those would be costs one has to put in upfront, it will turn into reduced profits if the caravan would have reached its goal without incident.

Furthermore, the Highwaymen should allow players to mitigate the risks of attacking a caravan, maybe have some options to counter specific augmentations or by having the option to acquire more loot from a caravan + extra EXP.

I want this to be worthwhile for both sides.

Kilion

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

this system would be free of the limitations imposed by archtype

That is exactly what I don't want. This "Anyone can do anything" design rubs me the wrong way; I can see that it makes sense with armor classes and gear, but it doesn't do so when it comes to specialized skills. I want people to make conscious choices about the defenders they hire based on actual differences between the options from which one could choose. And I want attackers to see "Oh, the caravan is led by a Rouge, we need a rouge ourselves so we can disarm the trap." or abandon the raid. It is also valuable information for the ones trying to attack a caravan, which is why I absolutely think that there should be a connection between what caravan augmentation one can use and the archetype of the leader.

Child Item