Group Finder And Matchmaking

What is your mindset towards group finders, dungeon LFGs, and matchmaking with so much content not being instanced based? Do you feel there should a gear, weapon, or skill requirement to que as a tank if group finder is a thing? For example a tank may be required to slot a shield or at least one to two taunt/threat generator. How would you approach this?

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NyceGaming

novercalis wrote: »

NyceGaming wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

NyceGaming wrote: »

What is your mindset towards group finders, dungeon LFGs, and matchmaking with so much content not being instanced based? Do you feel there should a gear, weapon, or skill requirement to que as a tank if group finder is a thing? For example a tank may be required to slot a shield or at least one to two taunt/threat generator. How would you approach this?

They don't have match matching in the game you got to actually socialize and make groups.

Yea and that’s something I like, but I asked because I know there’s a lot of people who dislike that from what I hear

and the answer to that is: this game isnt for you.
This game isnt trying to be #1 biggest MMO
this game isnt trying to be a wow killer
this game isnt trying to appease everyone

Steven made it clear - this is a niche game. All the hype, AOC will have a stupid huge numbers of players day one, but like New World, expect to see a massive exodus of 90%-95% of the player base. Steven acknowledged this and is fine with this.

Yea I feel like everyone who complains should just play the mmos that are out. This game is looking to do something different because we need different

Arya_Yeshe

I'm not very fond when people try to shoo away the whistleblowers

Vaknar

ICYMI here is a link to what has been said regarding a group finder in AoC.

In my own unbiased opinion, the idea of a bulletin board is a pretty good medium between either side of the spectrum (say, auto-grouping with a queue system vs walking up to people around you and asking them).

PavlovDead

Bulletin boards do sound like a pretty happy medium, though it probably depends on their exact implementation.

In theory it should allow people to be picky about gearing if they really want, but if you're limited to the pool of people in your local node, being too picky might mean you just don't find someone. Hopefully that cuts down on gear-score elitism.

Dygz

In Ashes, we should know where people live and hang out - and we won't really be abandoning out-leveled zones, so...
We shouldn't really need to rely on group finders.
Especially since we should be more focused on eliminating actual threats to the region.
Most people should be wanting to engage the Winter Dragon that's causing perpetual Winter in the region because that perpetual Winter is problematic for Harvesting and Crafting, etc...

And we should be able to find those same people who typically play when we play at their homes or Freeholds or at the local Tavern.

Azherae

Dygz wrote: »

In Ashes, we should know where people live and hang out - and we won't really be abandoning out-leveled zones, so...
We shouldn't really need to rely on group finders.
Especially since we should be more focused on eliminating actual threats to the region.
Most people should be wanting to engage the Winter Dragon that's causing perpetual Winter in the region because that perpetual Winter is problematic for Harvesting and Crafting, etc...

And we should be able to find those same people who typically play when we play at their homes or Freeholds or at the local Tavern.

At the same time, isn't this a little exclusionary?

Even if we consider that Ashes has a design goal to make this happen, there will still be a lot of people, quite possibly a majority of people, who fight the Winter Dragon because it is there.

And many other situations where you need to get enough people together for something, particularly something not top-end, and you don't have enough people, so you need to recruit wanderers and visitors. I don't think it's good to frame this in such a way that people like CROW3 for example 'wouldn't end up being recruited to help' even for Dungeons or leveling parties.

This definitely comes off to me as 'not caring as much about the wanderers and nomads', those are the people who benefit from the Group Finder the most.

Arya_Yeshe

Oh, a stall as LFG, this is really cool, it feels very organic!

Kilion

NyceGaming wrote: »

What is your mindset towards group finders, dungeon LFGs, and matchmaking with so much content not being instanced based? Do you feel there should a gear, weapon, or skill requirement to que as a tank if group finder is a thing? For example a tank may be required to slot a shield or at least one to two taunt/threat generator. How would you approach this?

These kind of comfort tools like a group finder are the reason why at some point WoW felt like an empty shell. You could stand in Orgrimmar cue to dungeons throughout all the worlds, port back and forth, instantly repair your gear on return and sell what you did not need. Hence at some point the only people left in the actual world were farming players (and bots) and alts leveling up, when they weren't going through the dungeon finder funnel to level faster than by actually doing quests and connecting with the world.

So if you want to find a group in Ashes, I think it should go back to actually interacting with the people, via chat or maybe an adventurer board (or a tavern) where we can post our requests for assistance on a later day, so that interested players can send us a letter to apply for the spot.

Dygz

Azherae wrote: »

At the same time, isn't this a little exclusionary?

Even if we consider that Ashes has a design goal to make this happen, there will still be a lot of people, quite possibly a majority of people, who fight the Winter Dragon because it is there.

And many other situations where you need to get enough people together for something, particularly something not top-end, and you don't have enough people, so you need to recruit wanderers and visitors. I don't think it's good to frame this in such a way that people like CROW3 for example 'wouldn't end up being recruited to help' even for Dungeons or leveling parties.

This definitely comes off to me as 'not caring as much about the wanderers and nomads', those are the people who benefit from the Group Finder the most.

I don't understand how it's exclusionary.

I'm not sure what "not having enough people" means in an open world environment.
I also don't understand what's preventing people from talking to and inviting wanderers and visitors.
When there is some kind of barrier to a dungeon or raid that prevents individuals from entering without a group, sure, you might need to LFG to enter.
But, that's not the case for the Ashes design.

Why would "people like CROW3" not be recruited??
I wouldn't need to use LFG to contact CROW3 and party with him - if we're on the same server and he plays when I play.

Depraved

i like group finders, but it probs wont happen because we will have open world dungeons, not instanced.
what we might get is a menu option to make a group and then people can request to join and you just walk up to your farming spot

NyceGaming

Depraved wrote: »

i like group finders, but it probs wont happen because we will have open world dungeons, not instanced.
what we might get is a menu option to make a group and then people can request to join and you just walk up to your farming spot

My thoughts too. As much as a comfort tool it is, idk how it’ll work with non instances based dungeons

Veeshan

i wouldnt be agaist the /LFG of all game where it pop a LFG text next to your name (could be an icon) just so people around know ur LFG for something nearby.

But bulletin boards in nodes/freehold that show everyone/Class LFG in the node zone of influence or withing x distance

Aniion

When everyone here is saying "go back to interacting/socializing in chat to find groups", this is what you mean:

LFG lvl26 Spellsword Abyss Dung
LFG lvl26 Spellsword Abyss Dung
LFG lvl26 Spellsword Abyss Dung

That's not socializing, that's just spamming.

There already is very limited fast travel, so you have to be within 10min of the area anyways or you'd get kicked as soon as you're invited. The LFG chat channel is going to be so spammed it'll be insane, which means there will be message limiting in place where you can only send one message a minute. Hundreds of people sending one message a minute is still a lot.

The real "socializing" only takes place once a person is invited. Even then the majority of decisions will most likely be made off someone's visible gear set since you most likely won't be able to inspect them. Things like "how high is your dps" or "have you ever done this before" is irrelevant because if you got kicked from your last group for saying the truth you're just gonna start lying.

The sheer fact that you can't inspect means that even with a group finder, you'll still need to do all the other things necessary to vet people if you really want to. But having to sit in chat waiting for your rate limit to reset to spam again, or scroll through dozens of messages to find one for the group you're looking for is just not interactive gameplay. It puts an artificial delay on gameplay.

Vaknar wrote: »

ICYMI here is a link to what has been said regarding a group finder in AoC.

In my own unbiased opinion, the idea of a bulletin board is a pretty good medium between either side of the spectrum (say, auto-grouping with a queue system vs walking up to people around you and asking them).

Bulletin boards are great if they're available at entrances to open world dungeons, but what if you're looking for a general mob farming group far away from a town node? Or a group for a world boss? Or even just to farm some gathering nodes? Do you have to travel to some random town to access it, hoping someone else had the idea to travel to that town even if that town is nowhere in the vicinity of the event you want to group for?

I think a better option is to have the bulletin system be accessible anywhere (like a GF) and you can apply from anywhere, but you can only post listings from a physical board. That way, if I want to form a group, I have to navigate to a board and post it (in the appropriate subheader e.g. "Dungeons" "Caravan" "Mob Farming"), but the pool of applicants isn't limited. And if I want to go to the tower of carphin, I don't have to wait around looking for a group or scroll through dozens of messages if I don't want to, I can just be in the area doing some casual mobbing and gathering while occasionally checking the bulletin board with a hotkey and seeing if there are any groups. Limiting downtime in a game that doesn't have real fast travel is important. Running for an hour to somewhere just to stand there spamming chat isn't interactive or social.

Ludullu

Aniion wrote: »

I think a better option is to have the bulletin system be accessible anywhere (like a GF) and you can apply from anywhere, but you can only post listings from a physical board. That way, if I want to form a group, I have to navigate to a board and post it (in the appropriate subheader e.g. "Dungeons" "Caravan" "Mob Farming"), but the pool of applicants isn't limited. And if I want to go to the tower of carphin, I don't have to wait around looking for a group or scroll through dozens of messages if I don't want to, I can just be in the area doing some casual mobbing and gathering while occasionally checking the bulletin board with a hotkey and seeing if there are any groups. Limiting downtime in a game that doesn't have real fast travel is important. Running for an hour to somewhere just to stand there spamming chat isn't interactive or social.

I don't quite see how "anywhere" works here. Because you'll still need to run for an hour if you find a group to some content on the other side of the world and the party whose place you took would have to wait for you for that hour. And if you're trying to find a group within your own node or within your current node - you're literally in the same local chat and can just talk to those people.

Group finder is useful when the content can be reached within a very short time, which will not be the case in Ashes. And small local group finders would serve the same purpose as a bulletin board or plain chat. Considering the game's design I doubt we'll have hundreds of people spamming the chat, unless that chat is global, but there's no reason to have global chat because player movement is not global, which is why I think that boards should concentrate on helping people plan future content, while local chat will help to pick up any randos.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Aniion wrote: »

I think a better option is to have the bulletin system be accessible anywhere (like a GF) and you can apply from anywhere, but you can only post listings from a physical board. That way, if I want to form a group, I have to navigate to a board and post it (in the appropriate subheader e.g. "Dungeons" "Caravan" "Mob Farming"), but the pool of applicants isn't limited. And if I want to go to the tower of carphin, I don't have to wait around looking for a group or scroll through dozens of messages if I don't want to, I can just be in the area doing some casual mobbing and gathering while occasionally checking the bulletin board with a hotkey and seeing if there are any groups. Limiting downtime in a game that doesn't have real fast travel is important. Running for an hour to somewhere just to stand there spamming chat isn't interactive or social.

I don't quite see how "anywhere" works here. Because you'll still need to run for an hour if you find a group to some content on the other side of the world and the party whose place you took would have to wait for you for that hour. And if you're trying to find a group within your own node or within your current node - you're literally in the same local chat and can just talk to those people.

Group finder is useful when the content can be reached within a very short time, which will not be the case in Ashes. And small local group finders would serve the same purpose as a bulletin board or plain chat. Considering the game's design I doubt we'll have hundreds of people spamming the chat, unless that chat is global, but there's no reason to have global chat because player movement is not global, which is why I think that boards should concentrate on helping people plan future content, while local chat will help to pick up any randos.

No, it still works, it allows people to easily form the 'rolling' party.

Discount the actual question of if the board even exists or not, because a guild could, for example, 'ask their other members to /shout in chat in an area'. Focusing completely on the arrangement. Then you just get etiquette.

"Let your party know X minutes before you know you have to leave if you can."
"Your party leader starts looking for your replacement and tells them how long the party itself will continue (other people tend to give their estimates as well)."
"The person who can fill the slot is told in advance."

There's other benefits too, that I've experienced. If you think your own party is going to disband or half-disband, you don't invite a replacement, you inform another leader who is forming their party at the time and 'hand off' the remaining members'. That group then can leave town with 4/8 instead of trying to get all the way up, and they get to meet new people who are already prepared, knowing that those people don't even need an explanation of the content.

https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Importance_of_Search_Comments - Random data to add here I guess, only somewhat related.

Anyways, there you go. There's not much bias here, I think, because I barely used this system myself so I don't have 'fond memories of it' or anything, if anything the opposite because people suck, but it's because people suck and it's so obviously frustrating when they misuse it or don't try to use it properly that I can say it really was just good. It led to a lot of positive situations that aren't obvious.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Anyways, there you go. There's not much bias here, I think, because I barely used this system myself so I don't have 'fond memories of it' or anything, if anything the opposite because people suck, but it's because people suck and it's so obviously frustrating when they misuse it or don't try to use it properly that I can say it really was just good. It led to a lot of positive situations that aren't obvious.

I guess it's more about my own bias. Not only of constant/static parties, but also guilds. With L2 being all about guilds, you'd pretty much always be in one and any party that lost a player to sudden circumstances or who was just late - you'd always pick them up from the guild chat.

And with Ashes trying to concentrate on Node comradery (and still having guilds on top of that) I expect the game to have tightknit communities that work kinda like guilds, and the node chat would serve the same function as my guild chat did for me in L2. Which, for me, removes the requirement for a global group finder tool.

But as you know, I like to limit players in one way or another, so my bias would probably just not work here.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Anyways, there you go. There's not much bias here, I think, because I barely used this system myself so I don't have 'fond memories of it' or anything, if anything the opposite because people suck, but it's because people suck and it's so obviously frustrating when they misuse it or don't try to use it properly that I can say it really was just good. It led to a lot of positive situations that aren't obvious.

I guess it's more about my own bias. Not only of constant/static parties, but also guilds. With L2 being all about guilds, you'd pretty much always be in one and any party that lost a player to sudden circumstances or who was just late - you'd always pick them up from the guild chat.

And with Ashes trying to concentrate on Node comradery (and still having guilds on top of that) I expect the game to have tightknit communities that work kinda like guilds, and the node chat would serve the same function as my guild chat did for me in L2. Which, for me, removes the requirement for a global group finder tool.

But as you know, I like to limit players in one way or another, so my bias would probably just not work here.

I'll go ahead and say yeah, this time it's bias.

Sometimes your limitations create new gameplay types or 'shift the benefit/convenience', but this one is just exclusionary and not in a helpful way.

There's a lot of effort and emotional cost involved in committing to a new guild, especially in those periods where your old one just disbanded and so on. People quit games in those situations. Particularly in the current era of games where there is no equivalent of this.

When your guild shatters and you become a wanderer looking for a new home, you need the tools to find one by trying out many more, but 'Hey join our guild it's chill and nice and there's no problems!' shouts? Well, to each their own, but there's a lot of psychology at play here that makes your limitation style inappropriate.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

When your guild shatters and you become a wanderer looking for a new home, you need the tools to find one by trying out many more, but 'Hey join our guild it's chill and nice and there's no problems!' shouts? Well, to each their own, but there's a lot of psychology at play here that makes your limitation style inappropriate.

This is why I just make my own guilds with blackjack and hookers

This most likely just reinforced my bias over the years. Can never had guild problems if you're the one making the guild each time.

Aniion

NiKr wrote: »

I don't quite see how "anywhere" works here. Because you'll still need to run for an hour if you find a group to some content on the other side of the world and the party whose place you took would have to wait for you for that hour. And if you're trying to find a group within your own node or within your current node - you're literally in the same local chat and can just talk to those people.

Yeah people joining not in the relative area might be an issue, but I think the increased pool of applicants + the better User Experience is much more of a benefit. For every person you have to kick because they applied across the world, there'll be someone applying nearby. Plus, just having "current location" under their name will weed them out. And if they're in a completely different area but 9 levels higher than you and you decide to wait the 30min for them to come for a free carry? That's up to you.

I just think that it's 2023 and the desire for more "social" interactions is great, but that doesn't mean to go back to Ultima Online era with zero improvements. The game itself is already built in a way so that people who are more engaging socially are going to benefit more, whether it's being in a really active guild or being friends with specialized crafters/artisans outside your specialty. Scrolling through a spammed chat is, in my opinion, a purely nostalgia thing. The act of doing it isn't particularly fun or interesting. It's just associated with some artificial "barrier" that people think is necessary in order to be a TRUE mmo. It's essentially a worse group finder. You're doing the same thing, parsing text visually until you find one post that you're interested in, and sending a message. Or from the group leaders perspective, parsing dozens of responses individually until you decide on the ones you want. It's just lacking every innovation done in the past 20 years lmao. That's not creative, engaging, or skill-expression. It's just the same thing with extra steps.

And about the chat not being spammed because it's local, I don't really think that's realistic. The game will have a fairly long levelling process (compared to recent MMOs). The game will also have major open world dungeon areas being PoI for many different goals e.g. gatherers farming, people Pvping, people farming exp, people farming elite bosses, people doing quests, people doing world bosses. These areas will be known and ranked by launch by multiple guides and content creators as "best spots to farm". And because of the slower levelling grind, plus the fact that these areas may accommodate multiple level ranges, there will be a buildup in the middle-end of levels where a lot of people will congregate. That's all to say that "local" chats in places where people want to group up will inevitably get very busy in the first several months.

Obviously a year later many of these issues will not be prevalent, but local chat being busy and populated is a given.

And also, just because an easier UI and accessible bulletin board exists doesn't mean people won't use chat to recruit. Same way people use chat to sell/buy things even with a marketplace.

Azherae

Oh yeah, also this.

Aniion wrote: »

These areas will be known and ranked by launch by multiple guides and content creators as "best spots to farm". And because of the slower levelling grind, plus the fact that these areas may accommodate multiple level ranges, there will be a buildup in the middle-end of levels where a lot of people will congregate. That's all to say that "local" chats in places where people want to group up will inevitably get very busy in the first several months.

'LFG' systems without auto-teleport are vital for avoiding this too. Players take the path of least resistance, which creates some organic things that you might not want, such as 'everyone congregating to a single node or general area because no global chat means they won't be able to find groups if they don't'.

Effect isn't huge, but it does snowball. It doesn't affect you or me @NiKr but there's no real benefit to letting the snowball even start rolling, the sort of person on the opposite end of the spectrum from us isn't going to 'force themselves to try to form a guild or static party'.

You can either give them some easier LFG or say 'this game is not for them'. Seems like a waste to me to say the latter, but if that's what the community wants...

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