NiKr wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » As far as attacks yes your moves happen pretty fast, though I wouldn't say it is as fast as BDO. If it is speed I'm thinking about a lot of elements and how they combine together. Between the positioning, speed of attacks, effects of attacks, defense, and how those work within the game, etc. The attacks in the video seem faster but the overall speed of a fight in bdo is more complex in terms of what I see with speed. You also have a general rhythm when it comes to tab target games, where BDO had a splash of more fighting game feeling where you could break away from the rhythm to feint people and such. I explained a bit how the fight was going down in the original post of that video. Both sides had to move in a way that would keep their backs from the enemy. And I explained that overclicking the targets would be bad too, so they had to control their actions correctly. And I also said that this was an older version of the game, with the newer having even more tools to feint and outthink your opponents. And the speed was even higher too. This was just the only fitting video I could find within reasonable time. So as Noaani has been saying over and over, you can't just see a video and know all the actions and thought processes the player is making. So if you say that attacks are even faster than BDO in this video, the later versions of L2 must be waaay faster than BDO with even deeper decision trees. Obviously there's a range in how deep some classes go, but Azherae said that this is true for BDO as well, so there's that. But my main point is that it's possible for a tab game to be, at the very least, as fast as BDO. And imo targeting with a mouse that you also use for moving requires waay more visual precision than just few degree turns in BDO, but I haven't played enough BDO to say that with full confidence and no one in this current discussion has played enough L2 (and BDO) to say that I'm super wrong either. This is why we keep telling you that you just gotta trust us a bit.
Mag7spy wrote: » As far as attacks yes your moves happen pretty fast, though I wouldn't say it is as fast as BDO. If it is speed I'm thinking about a lot of elements and how they combine together. Between the positioning, speed of attacks, effects of attacks, defense, and how those work within the game, etc. The attacks in the video seem faster but the overall speed of a fight in bdo is more complex in terms of what I see with speed. You also have a general rhythm when it comes to tab target games, where BDO had a splash of more fighting game feeling where you could break away from the rhythm to feint people and such.
NiKr wrote: » But my main point is that it's possible for a tab game to be, at the very least, as fast as BDO.
Mag7spy wrote: » There becomes a difference when you have a lot more mobility tools with your dashes / teleport and the way your attacks effect your movement. If you are simply clicking and using your skills it isn't that difficult to get on the back of one it is pretty straight forward between than and trying to keep them off your back.
Mag7spy wrote: » Feints for this game I can only assume if based on spacing which lets you dodge some attacks. You are free to explain further if you like. But a game that has more mobility like bdo it is going to add a lot more complexity to the game that is natural if you have like 20 different skills that have different forms of movement or lack of to do different forms of dmg. Including the rotation of iframes, and SA.
Mag7spy wrote: » I'd have to see these different versions of L2 to be able to judge and understand the gameplay loop. Eventually in tab target things start to feel the same skill wise with a lack of unique feeling per attack. IE if you are using 7 skills but they pretty much hit the same, compare d to another game where those skills might not be hitting the same.
Mag7spy wrote: » That doesn't hold up for me, you don't need to understand everything about the game when being shown gameplay. It gives you an idea of the pace even if you don't understand everything. For example you showing you can your skills really quickly in your attacks and a bit of the movement to keep people off your back and their positioning on that player to also try to get towards the back. But again what I'm talking about the feeling of overall speed with everything together not just in the element of how quickly one uses skills. If i could use 20 skills per second i wouldn't see it as a fast game depending how it played. Though it be a really high chance id see it as fast pace if it was an action game. Having played tab games for to long I know a lot of the issues and patterns and it does not feel the same has having action elements. It is just easier when it is purely tab base since you don't need to worry about as many issues. btw Im not saying more speed is a good thing, it isn't really a competition for what is the fastest game, nor does it make a game better. Its about the right balance.
Noaani wrote: » Perhaps I am missing something, but I have yet to see a PvP focused game with that much variety between the speed of its classes.
NiKr wrote: » On one hand that's bad, because everyone feels almost the same, but on the other hand it's good because people are more equal in pvp
Noaani wrote: » NiKr wrote: » On one hand that's bad, because everyone feels almost the same, but on the other hand it's good because people are more equal in pvp This here is my theory. I cant really imagine how to create a viable PvP class that is based on slow casting, with multiple 3 or 4 second cast spells. Even 2 seconds in PvP is an eternity. Still just a theory though. Happy for people with experience in PvP games other than L2 and Archeage (the two games NiKr and I have ample PvP experience in between us, for those reading along at home) to weigh in. I would imagine the same holds true for fighting games as well, perhaps Azherae may have some insight on that point.
Solvryn wrote: » Noaani wrote: » NiKr wrote: » On one hand that's bad, because everyone feels almost the same, but on the other hand it's good because people are more equal in pvp This here is my theory. I cant really imagine how to create a viable PvP class that is based on slow casting, with multiple 3 or 4 second cast spells. Even 2 seconds in PvP is an eternity. Still just a theory though. Happy for people with experience in PvP games other than L2 and Archeage (the two games NiKr and I have ample PvP experience in between us, for those reading along at home) to weigh in. I would imagine the same holds true for fighting games as well, perhaps Azherae may have some insight on that point. It would be a ward/bubble class with dummy thick defensives and support and not a whole lot of people would play it.
Azherae wrote: » Solvryn wrote: » Noaani wrote: » NiKr wrote: » On one hand that's bad, because everyone feels almost the same, but on the other hand it's good because people are more equal in pvp This here is my theory. I cant really imagine how to create a viable PvP class that is based on slow casting, with multiple 3 or 4 second cast spells. Even 2 seconds in PvP is an eternity. Still just a theory though. Happy for people with experience in PvP games other than L2 and Archeage (the two games NiKr and I have ample PvP experience in between us, for those reading along at home) to weigh in. I would imagine the same holds true for fighting games as well, perhaps Azherae may have some insight on that point. It would be a ward/bubble class with dummy thick defensives and support and not a whole lot of people would play it. Video required as prerequisite for explanation, but is not in itself explanation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPmgExy8L_U Fighting Games solve this differently than BDO and certain PvP games by having lower mobility and a somewhat limited 'optimal movement range'. 2D ones limit you in the way seen above. 3D ones are a different matter that I can explain by grabbing Mag7's Siegfried play that I have somewhere from before on these forums. Basically it takes 2-3 seconds to close the distance safely so long cast times are ok when applied in one of three ways. 1. The cast itself must finish, and has a duration over which it does damage and probably lowers the mobility of the opponent, MMO equiv: Mage's Black Hole or Prismatic Beam. 2. The charge time is not 'rooting you' but 'requiring you to hold a button which for whatever reason reduces your other options while you are holding it'. These are reasonable to have a player hold for up to 3 seconds in Fighting Games. Release and execution of the attack may still not be instant even then (up to 25f startup is common). The player is 'charging up' and trying to put the opposing player in the right position for unleash at the right time. This type works in MMO PvP provided it has enough defenses or discouragements, while remaining mainly balanced even with a good tank. 3. The character moves slowly in general but the opponent has multiple sorta-passive reasons other than the long casts that they do not want to be near this character. Often requires that the character has 'bubble' type or 'frontal guard' type defenses, resistance to slows, and timed counterattacks. This type doesn't work well in MMO/MOBA situations in my experience because the mirror match ends up feeling stupid. For Fighting Gamers this can be fine/fun because micromovement matters more in those. Better MOBAs allow you to make builds where it works similar to that. Even then, the timeframes don't often get into the 2-3 second range but this is a little 'non-applicable' to fighting games of certain complexity because the better players may spend 3-5 seconds just minutely repositioning without real attacks. Inapplicable to BDO because BDO is a 10 second button-masher with single-interaction rounds for 90% of its engagements. It has a theoretical skill space where this is not true, but the type of player who likes BDO for the combat is normally actually not a Fighting Game player seriously because it is not as satisfying to them due to the shallow nature of the combat. Even those people who prefer to 'play games where you flit around for 6 seconds and then combo the opponent to death for 10, want to be able to show off their 10 second Touch of Death combo skills, whereas in BDO you can kill someone with minimal actual combo skill faster than they could even attempt to respond. Basically, such characters exist on the Fighting Game side, and FFXI PvP does have some similar situations as well, but it's difficult to explain it to the unfamiliar. The video offers what little I can show easily from a 2D game that is similar to BDO. "Actually rather slow but looks fast". The only 3D game I know that is similar to BDO is Soul Calibur, which is both ironic and annoying given what it will likely trigger if we for some reason continued to discuss it in order to improve our feedback. 2 seconds is an eternity, and the better the game, the more it is an 'eternity of tiny decisions'. Whether that is deciding to constantly act (Kunoichi above) or constantly watch (Crusader above).
Solvryn wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Solvryn wrote: » Noaani wrote: » NiKr wrote: » On one hand that's bad, because everyone feels almost the same, but on the other hand it's good because people are more equal in pvp This here is my theory. I cant really imagine how to create a viable PvP class that is based on slow casting, with multiple 3 or 4 second cast spells. Even 2 seconds in PvP is an eternity. Still just a theory though. Happy for people with experience in PvP games other than L2 and Archeage (the two games NiKr and I have ample PvP experience in between us, for those reading along at home) to weigh in. I would imagine the same holds true for fighting games as well, perhaps Azherae may have some insight on that point. It would be a ward/bubble class with dummy thick defensives and support and not a whole lot of people would play it. Video required as prerequisite for explanation, but is not in itself explanation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPmgExy8L_U Fighting Games solve this differently than BDO and certain PvP games by having lower mobility and a somewhat limited 'optimal movement range'. 2D ones limit you in the way seen above. 3D ones are a different matter that I can explain by grabbing Mag7's Siegfried play that I have somewhere from before on these forums. Basically it takes 2-3 seconds to close the distance safely so long cast times are ok when applied in one of three ways. 1. The cast itself must finish, and has a duration over which it does damage and probably lowers the mobility of the opponent, MMO equiv: Mage's Black Hole or Prismatic Beam. 2. The charge time is not 'rooting you' but 'requiring you to hold a button which for whatever reason reduces your other options while you are holding it'. These are reasonable to have a player hold for up to 3 seconds in Fighting Games. Release and execution of the attack may still not be instant even then (up to 25f startup is common). The player is 'charging up' and trying to put the opposing player in the right position for unleash at the right time. This type works in MMO PvP provided it has enough defenses or discouragements, while remaining mainly balanced even with a good tank. 3. The character moves slowly in general but the opponent has multiple sorta-passive reasons other than the long casts that they do not want to be near this character. Often requires that the character has 'bubble' type or 'frontal guard' type defenses, resistance to slows, and timed counterattacks. This type doesn't work well in MMO/MOBA situations in my experience because the mirror match ends up feeling stupid. For Fighting Gamers this can be fine/fun because micromovement matters more in those. Better MOBAs allow you to make builds where it works similar to that. Even then, the timeframes don't often get into the 2-3 second range but this is a little 'non-applicable' to fighting games of certain complexity because the better players may spend 3-5 seconds just minutely repositioning without real attacks. Inapplicable to BDO because BDO is a 10 second button-masher with single-interaction rounds for 90% of its engagements. It has a theoretical skill space where this is not true, but the type of player who likes BDO for the combat is normally actually not a Fighting Game player seriously because it is not as satisfying to them due to the shallow nature of the combat. Even those people who prefer to 'play games where you flit around for 6 seconds and then combo the opponent to death for 10, want to be able to show off their 10 second Touch of Death combo skills, whereas in BDO you can kill someone with minimal actual combo skill faster than they could even attempt to respond. Basically, such characters exist on the Fighting Game side, and FFXI PvP does have some similar situations as well, but it's difficult to explain it to the unfamiliar. The video offers what little I can show easily from a 2D game that is similar to BDO. "Actually rather slow but looks fast". The only 3D game I know that is similar to BDO is Soul Calibur, which is both ironic and annoying given what it will likely trigger if we for some reason continued to discuss it in order to improve our feedback. 2 seconds is an eternity, and the better the game, the more it is an 'eternity of tiny decisions'. Whether that is deciding to constantly act (Kunoichi above) or constantly watch (Crusader above). Are we discussing Ashes combat or BDO combat. I don’t think Ashes is similar enough to BDO to gain anything.
Azherae wrote: » Solvryn wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Solvryn wrote: » Noaani wrote: » NiKr wrote: » On one hand that's bad, because everyone feels almost the same, but on the other hand it's good because people are more equal in pvp This here is my theory. I cant really imagine how to create a viable PvP class that is based on slow casting, with multiple 3 or 4 second cast spells. Even 2 seconds in PvP is an eternity. Still just a theory though. Happy for people with experience in PvP games other than L2 and Archeage (the two games NiKr and I have ample PvP experience in between us, for those reading along at home) to weigh in. I would imagine the same holds true for fighting games as well, perhaps Azherae may have some insight on that point. It would be a ward/bubble class with dummy thick defensives and support and not a whole lot of people would play it. Video required as prerequisite for explanation, but is not in itself explanation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPmgExy8L_U Fighting Games solve this differently than BDO and certain PvP games by having lower mobility and a somewhat limited 'optimal movement range'. 2D ones limit you in the way seen above. 3D ones are a different matter that I can explain by grabbing Mag7's Siegfried play that I have somewhere from before on these forums. Basically it takes 2-3 seconds to close the distance safely so long cast times are ok when applied in one of three ways. 1. The cast itself must finish, and has a duration over which it does damage and probably lowers the mobility of the opponent, MMO equiv: Mage's Black Hole or Prismatic Beam. 2. The charge time is not 'rooting you' but 'requiring you to hold a button which for whatever reason reduces your other options while you are holding it'. These are reasonable to have a player hold for up to 3 seconds in Fighting Games. Release and execution of the attack may still not be instant even then (up to 25f startup is common). The player is 'charging up' and trying to put the opposing player in the right position for unleash at the right time. This type works in MMO PvP provided it has enough defenses or discouragements, while remaining mainly balanced even with a good tank. 3. The character moves slowly in general but the opponent has multiple sorta-passive reasons other than the long casts that they do not want to be near this character. Often requires that the character has 'bubble' type or 'frontal guard' type defenses, resistance to slows, and timed counterattacks. This type doesn't work well in MMO/MOBA situations in my experience because the mirror match ends up feeling stupid. For Fighting Gamers this can be fine/fun because micromovement matters more in those. Better MOBAs allow you to make builds where it works similar to that. Even then, the timeframes don't often get into the 2-3 second range but this is a little 'non-applicable' to fighting games of certain complexity because the better players may spend 3-5 seconds just minutely repositioning without real attacks. Inapplicable to BDO because BDO is a 10 second button-masher with single-interaction rounds for 90% of its engagements. It has a theoretical skill space where this is not true, but the type of player who likes BDO for the combat is normally actually not a Fighting Game player seriously because it is not as satisfying to them due to the shallow nature of the combat. Even those people who prefer to 'play games where you flit around for 6 seconds and then combo the opponent to death for 10, want to be able to show off their 10 second Touch of Death combo skills, whereas in BDO you can kill someone with minimal actual combo skill faster than they could even attempt to respond. Basically, such characters exist on the Fighting Game side, and FFXI PvP does have some similar situations as well, but it's difficult to explain it to the unfamiliar. The video offers what little I can show easily from a 2D game that is similar to BDO. "Actually rather slow but looks fast". The only 3D game I know that is similar to BDO is Soul Calibur, which is both ironic and annoying given what it will likely trigger if we for some reason continued to discuss it in order to improve our feedback. 2 seconds is an eternity, and the better the game, the more it is an 'eternity of tiny decisions'. Whether that is deciding to constantly act (Kunoichi above) or constantly watch (Crusader above). Are we discussing Ashes combat or BDO combat. I don’t think Ashes is similar enough to BDO to gain anything. I do. Forgive the flippant empty response, but in my experience and extrapolating, Ashes is going to be closer to BDO than almost any other PvP combat game besides ArcheAge. There is, at minimum, no contrary evidence that we've been provided. They could definitely go in a direction that adds more depth, but the two are very similar.
Solvryn wrote: » Then games like Valheim have enough structure to offer Ashes something in terms of basics. Hopefully they branch out.
Solvryn wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Solvryn wrote: » Azherae wrote: » Solvryn wrote: » Noaani wrote: » NiKr wrote: » On one hand that's bad, because everyone feels almost the same, but on the other hand it's good because people are more equal in pvp This here is my theory. I cant really imagine how to create a viable PvP class that is based on slow casting, with multiple 3 or 4 second cast spells. Even 2 seconds in PvP is an eternity. Still just a theory though. Happy for people with experience in PvP games other than L2 and Archeage (the two games NiKr and I have ample PvP experience in between us, for those reading along at home) to weigh in. I would imagine the same holds true for fighting games as well, perhaps Azherae may have some insight on that point. It would be a ward/bubble class with dummy thick defensives and support and not a whole lot of people would play it. Video required as prerequisite for explanation, but is not in itself explanation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPmgExy8L_U Fighting Games solve this differently than BDO and certain PvP games by having lower mobility and a somewhat limited 'optimal movement range'. 2D ones limit you in the way seen above. 3D ones are a different matter that I can explain by grabbing Mag7's Siegfried play that I have somewhere from before on these forums. Basically it takes 2-3 seconds to close the distance safely so long cast times are ok when applied in one of three ways. 1. The cast itself must finish, and has a duration over which it does damage and probably lowers the mobility of the opponent, MMO equiv: Mage's Black Hole or Prismatic Beam. 2. The charge time is not 'rooting you' but 'requiring you to hold a button which for whatever reason reduces your other options while you are holding it'. These are reasonable to have a player hold for up to 3 seconds in Fighting Games. Release and execution of the attack may still not be instant even then (up to 25f startup is common). The player is 'charging up' and trying to put the opposing player in the right position for unleash at the right time. This type works in MMO PvP provided it has enough defenses or discouragements, while remaining mainly balanced even with a good tank. 3. The character moves slowly in general but the opponent has multiple sorta-passive reasons other than the long casts that they do not want to be near this character. Often requires that the character has 'bubble' type or 'frontal guard' type defenses, resistance to slows, and timed counterattacks. This type doesn't work well in MMO/MOBA situations in my experience because the mirror match ends up feeling stupid. For Fighting Gamers this can be fine/fun because micromovement matters more in those. Better MOBAs allow you to make builds where it works similar to that. Even then, the timeframes don't often get into the 2-3 second range but this is a little 'non-applicable' to fighting games of certain complexity because the better players may spend 3-5 seconds just minutely repositioning without real attacks. Inapplicable to BDO because BDO is a 10 second button-masher with single-interaction rounds for 90% of its engagements. It has a theoretical skill space where this is not true, but the type of player who likes BDO for the combat is normally actually not a Fighting Game player seriously because it is not as satisfying to them due to the shallow nature of the combat. Even those people who prefer to 'play games where you flit around for 6 seconds and then combo the opponent to death for 10, want to be able to show off their 10 second Touch of Death combo skills, whereas in BDO you can kill someone with minimal actual combo skill faster than they could even attempt to respond. Basically, such characters exist on the Fighting Game side, and FFXI PvP does have some similar situations as well, but it's difficult to explain it to the unfamiliar. The video offers what little I can show easily from a 2D game that is similar to BDO. "Actually rather slow but looks fast". The only 3D game I know that is similar to BDO is Soul Calibur, which is both ironic and annoying given what it will likely trigger if we for some reason continued to discuss it in order to improve our feedback. 2 seconds is an eternity, and the better the game, the more it is an 'eternity of tiny decisions'. Whether that is deciding to constantly act (Kunoichi above) or constantly watch (Crusader above). Are we discussing Ashes combat or BDO combat. I don’t think Ashes is similar enough to BDO to gain anything. I do. Forgive the flippant empty response, but in my experience and extrapolating, Ashes is going to be closer to BDO than almost any other PvP combat game besides ArcheAge. There is, at minimum, no contrary evidence that we've been provided. They could definitely go in a direction that adds more depth, but the two are very similar. Have you ever played GW2? Try it if you haven’t, cuz Ashes combat is sibling like in similarity. Aside from the fact that Steven has said GW2 is a major influence. (Which I wish it wasn’t, I know the BDO pixelshow is an influence too) Then games like Valheim have enough structure to offer Ashes something in terms of basics. Hopefully they branch out.
Azherae wrote: » I don't have any specific response to this. I was indirectly asked for data and provided it while attempting to maintain relevance to the topic. I understand that you disagree that my data provides relevance to the topic, but I have no specific reason to value your analysis(?) over my own at this time.
Azherae wrote: » Please note that since I'm arrogant and toxic, I'm just going to view this as your bias until we have a proper discussion. Lots of people look at Ashes combat and see what they want to see. I at least know that I can speak for myself when I say that I don't see something I specifically want or like, so I feel it's less likely to be bias.
Azherae wrote: » I find Ashes' described intents and frame data to be considerably closer to BDO than to GW2, with the main connector being the 'Split Body motion', which tends to lead to a perception shift. I'm happy to hear your reasons why Ashes combat is not like BDO, with the note that I tend to talk more about the strategies that emerge from the frame data that end up being effective, than about the 'feel of combat'.
NiKr wrote: » Solvryn wrote: » Then games like Valheim have enough structure to offer Ashes something in terms of basics. Hopefully they branch out. I liked Valheim quite a lot but I definitely do not want that kind combat in an mmo. And I'm not sure if it would even work for what Ashes is trying to do.
Vaknar wrote: » We're excited to have Alpha Two in the hands of players as soon as it's ready, so we can all test combat together! \o/
