Sleep is OP

A 30 second CD seems like nothing when you look at the ttk on these mobs. I'm assuming players will have a similar health pool. Sleeps also typically last a long time in mmos but this looks more like a polymorph from wow except it doesn't heal you, which is broken. Just based off of the tools we saw available to the cleric tank and fighter, we need some defensive CDs on other classes to counteract this. This is the first class we've seen with both disengage and a hard CC. And yes, it is a hard CC idc what the wiki says.

Find more posts tagged with

Staff

Comments

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

With top end PvE content, this is a basic aspect of life. Sometimes you need to literally be standing on top of each other, and sometimes you need to be literally as spread out as you can be while still being able to hit your target.

How many pve encounters happen in corridors that can then move through those corridors into rooms and back? In other words, how often do you interact with chokepoints and such (I'm talking harder pve and/or bosses)? I'd assume there's at least a few, but pretty much every dungeon pvp in L2 had nothing but choke points and tight spaces (in the context of party pvp) and the majority of your gameplay you'd spend in those dungeons.

I'm not saying that this is a valid excuse for standing in aoes or just not foreseeing the possibility of them, but quite often you wouldn't be able to move to your enemy if you didn't bunch up at some point. To me that was fun, because it'd create ebb and flow situations of range classes trying to snipe out the enemy stragglers in hopes of making a hole in their front and pushing a bit further.

Obviously pvp in open areas would require you to spread out more, but pvp in those places was usually either small party or 1v1s and huge sieges or huge guild movements, so no matter where you moved there'd probably be someone else to be in an aoe with you. And all open areas would funnel into choke points, so if both groups were moving around, sooner or later someone would have to go through a corridor with aoes in it.

Add to that the fact that L2 had TP spots where you could get camped by enemy mages, and you have yourself a game where it might be difficult to avoid getting hit by an aoe. But with all that being said, better players would still do their best to minimize incoming aoe dmg with correct movement and/or defensive abilities.

Noaani wrote: »

In regards to the specific scenario you are talking about above, I've actually seen many groups of players capable of that level of coordination - and been in a few of them myself. From my experience, it is just another of those things that are necessary (at times) in top end PvE.

In my time playing Archeage, I only saw one group of players that were even close to it though - a group I was not a part of.

I think this comes down to the differences between pvp and pve games. In a pve game you'd usually be sure that your obstacle can be overcome through repetition and practice, so more people would be willing to grind their skills up to a point of very high coordination and output.

With pvp there's always a chance that the enemy will bring more people or keep overfarming you (while also stopping your own farm), or sadly in most cases just p2w over you. And I'd imagine that a far smaller amount of people would be willing to try and overcome that kind of difficulty by bashing their heads against a wall. So in time all you have left in the game is the parties that either prey on the weak or just play w/o a super high skill goal. The former upkeep the vicious cycle and the latter will never reach the skill ceiling of the game.

Okeydoke

Noaani wrote: »

If the game has abilities that CC nearby players, why would any PvP player complain about that rather than just - you know - stand a little further apart?

I mean, exactly. This is a complicated subject with pros and cons to both sides. I'm generally pro CC. But there are definitely cons that come with powerful aoe CC too.

But one of the best things about powerful aoe CC's is that it obliterates the zergball meta. If there are powerful aoe CC's in the game, you just can't stay balled up. You learn very fast. Whether you're in the typical zergball guild group, or just a random zerg of pubs, you're going to spread out class today. This infinitely increases the quality of pvp imo.

Powerful aoe CC also gives smaller groups a better chance against larger groups. The flip side to that is that a larger group can do it to a smaller group as well.

Powerful CC increases skill gap. When two groups are about to engage each other, there is no pussyfooting around. It's serious time immediately. You spread out to avoid their aoe CC, they do the same, shots start being called by the shot caller, the highest priority targets are identified, usually the enemy CC'ers. It creates a hierarchy of who to kill, other than just kill healers first or attack the enemy closest to you. (Although in Ashes with how high of a ttk they seem to be going for, kill healer first meta may be all we're left with.) Some of this generally exists in mmo pvp anyway, but with the threat of aoe CC, it's amplified.

There's a skill gap in who can land their CC's first, who can land their CC's better, as in hitting more people or hitting the most important enemy players with it. That skill gap exists for the individual player playing a CC class, and for the group as a whole, all members being alert to incoming enemies, the group leader properly manuevering the group to put it into position to land the CC first, etc.

This is getting longer than I wanted but the cons in my view real quick.
CC can be rage inducing for the people it's happening to. Straight up. It is known to be rage inducing.

Where it is an increase of the skill gap on one hand, it can become a crutch too. Too easy. It can lead to very lopsided battles. If it's not done right, if it's TOO powerful etc.

There is this subset of players who just don't get it and never will. Aoe CC that is. Aoe CC is very powerful in the hands of skilled players, even average to above average players. But there's this subset of players who will be annihilated by aoe CC repeatedly and just not understand why its happening to them. The herding mentality is too strong in some people.

Edit: And to Nikr's point, another con is that in close quarters, or tight hallway type battles, powerful aoe CC can just create this fuckfest that's not exactly a good thing.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

How many pve encounters happen in corridors that can then move through those corridors into rooms and back?

Some.

More to the point, most encounters in top end PvE have at least some aspect where players have to do the opposite of what they would normally do - they have to go against their better judgement.

To me, in a game where AoE CC is a thing, the only time players should be caught in that AoE aspect of that CC (as opposed to being the target) is when they follow their base level instinct without first thinking. An example of this using a corridor is that the base level instinct is to attack the enemy at the other end - while a more measured approach would take in to account the range of AoE CC's and stagger.

It isn't as if a game is going to have an AoE CC where the AoE radius us larger than the range of a heal or cleanse, so there is no real need for eveyone to rush through that choke point all at once.

Songcaller

The sleep will be used in arena much like polymorph in WoW. You can sleep a healer and kill the rest of the team if the ttk is 30 seconds, if the ttk is 60 seconds then a 30 second sleep won't matter unless the healer can heal through 30 seconds of damage on someone and top them all back off. Whether coordinated damage reduces the ttk from 60 seconds to 30 seconds is anyone's guess right now.

As to coordination, the arena teams will have that coordination. I doubt more than 1 mage will be in a group though, especially seeing as sleep is an aoe cone/cast. Same reason why a hard cc tank would also be in an arena group but you wouldn't see more than 1 tank. There might be disparities between pve and pvp but a hard cc is definitely more akin to pvp than pve. I'm used to raid bosses not being able to be hard cc'd except in certain circumstances.

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

The sleep will be used in arena much like polymorph in WoW. You can sleep a healer and kill the rest of the team if the ttk is 30 seconds, if the ttk is 60 seconds then a 30 second sleep won't matter unless the healer can heal through 30 seconds of damage on someone and top them all back off. Whether coordinated damage reduces the ttk from 60 seconds to 30 seconds is anyone's guess right now.

And that's exactly why we need the ability to hit our mates. It would then make the sleep interaction a skill thing rather than a "you can't do shit about it" thing. I'd prefer if we could do that in owpvp as well, but I'd be willing to only have it in arena, purely because that's a much more controlled environment and parties that do arenas would definitely have way higher coordination in this regard.

Songcaller

I'd rather have a cleanse effect. Makes the game much more tactical. Though my arena team is suddenly growing rather large lol.

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

I'd rather have a cleanse effect. Makes the game much more tactical. Though my arena team is suddenly growing rather large lol.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

I'd rather have a cleanse effect. Makes the game much more tactical. Though my arena team is suddenly growing rather large lol.

Not going to lie - the notion that there wouldn't be a cleanse effect that could deal with sleep never occurred to me.

My expectation is that every CC effect will be able to be cleansed in some manner.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

Not going to lie - the notion that there wouldn't be a cleanse effect that could deal with sleep never occurred to me.

My expectation is that every CC effect will be able to be cleansed in some manner.

Yep, I had the same assumption. Can't imagine a pvp mmo w/o a cleanse ability at least on one class, if not several.

Veeshan

Vissox wrote: »

A 30 second CD seems like nothing when you look at the ttk on these mobs. I'm assuming players will have a similar health pool. Sleeps also typically last a long time in mmos but this looks more like a polymorph from wow except it doesn't heal you, which is broken. Just based off of the tools we saw available to the cleric tank and fighter, we need some defensive CDs on other classes to counteract this. This is the first class we've seen with both disengage and a hard CC. And yes, it is a hard CC idc what the wiki says.

sleep can also be broken by allies friendly firing u by flagging up if they cant cleanse it sooo its kinda irrelevant also some player might have skill that dmg themself too (necro maybe) which might be able to be timed to break it, it also has a cast time which can be interupted not realy an issue imo currently cant comment on anything balance wise tbh till we play the game in A2

Veeshan

Neurath wrote: »

I'd rather have a cleanse effect. Makes the game much more tactical. Though my arena team is suddenly growing rather large lol.

Drop party flag up if sleep an issue and hit ur sleeping friend once to wake the ahole up if u realy need too

some classes will probaly get a CC break aswell that can be used while CC its pretty common. Also some classes might be able to do self dmg to themself that can also break it like life tap for example, then there item effects too potentialy like WoW pvp trinket that removes all CC when used

Ludullu

Veeshan wrote: »

Drop party flag up if sleep an issue and hit ur sleeping friend once to wake the ahole up if u realy need too

Just to clarify, we don't know if we can hit our mates currently. Steven said that we can't flag on them, but there might be a tiny chance that we'll be able to hit them if we're already flagged.

Depraved

Neurath wrote: »

The sleep will be used in arena much like polymorph in WoW. You can sleep a healer and kill the rest of the team if the ttk is 30 seconds, if the ttk is 60 seconds then a 30 second sleep won't matter unless the healer can heal through 30 seconds of damage on someone and top them all back off. Whether coordinated damage reduces the ttk from 60 seconds to 30 seconds is anyone's guess right now.

As to coordination, the arena teams will have that coordination. I doubt more than 1 mage will be in a group though, especially seeing as sleep is an aoe cone/cast. Same reason why a hard cc tank would also be in an arena group but you wouldn't see more than 1 tank. There might be disparities between pve and pvp but a hard cc is definitely more akin to pvp than pve. I'm used to raid bosses not being able to be hard cc'd except in certain circumstances.

how many people can compete in the arena?
also, your mage sleeps my healer, but guess what? my mage sleeps yours, or all your dps.
also, bard and summoner will probs heal.

also remember the tank has ultimate defense and can make your party invulnerable. you would have to sleep the cleric and the tank, and possibly the summoner and the bard too, and hit them at the exact same time with all your team's abilities or someone wakes up and saves the party, and that's if sleeps casting isn't interrupted or if you don't move back far enough and take it.

Songcaller

Well, if we're getting into the gritty details...I would sleep the healer, hard cc the tank and nuke the damage dealer. Then once the damage dealer is dead I would focus the healer. Tank left until last in a 3v3.

Depraved

Neurath wrote: »

Well, if we're getting into the gritty details...I would sleep the healer, hard cc the tank and nuke the damage dealer. Then once the damage dealer is dead I would focus the healer. Tank left until last in a 3v3.

well, assuming your opponents just stand there and let you do all that, sleep can be replaced with any other cc. so all hard cc should be removed I guess?

and if you do that in the ow, the cleric just dresses the dps and now you have no cooldowns

HybridSR

Neurath wrote: »

My expectation is that every CC effect will be able to be cleansed in some manner.

Same. I have no idea why people think one form of CC is OP. This is clearly a GROUP PVP focused game and it's also inspired mostly by L2 which had different forms of cleanses.

Songcaller

I think your thinking too generally. You build an arena team to cope with the meta. We don't know what the meta is right now. I've merely stated what I would do with the classes currently shown.

You don't need a team to stand still at all. You merely have to strike first and be switched on. Difficult to sleep a player who is at the back but easy to narrow a 3v3 into a 3v2 via a sleep at the front.

nanfoodle

Voeltz wrote: »

Mark my words, the same people on here swearing "Sleep not OP" will be the first ones crying for it to be nerfed after an enemy group AOE sleeps them and their pals for 10 seconds before they can do anything, followed by 5 coordinated charge up meteors dropped on their heads sending them 100-0. I've seen it plenty of times across all kinds of games with CCs far weaker. Any time In PvP you pair a long lasting AOE CC with high burst damage attacks, charge ups and ultimates, decimation follows. And that's only ONE way it can be used.

Some people will have to experience it to understand, but that level of power from one ability should only come from Ultimates. You don't need to be psychic to know there WILL BE high burst damage attacks in the game, and there won't always be a way out of CC. I already saw some in the same gameplay video.

This game goes by the paper, rock, seizors game play. Sleep will have a counter of some kind. We have not even seen 5% of what will make the classes and their abilities in this game. So lets not freak out. So far IS has done a good job of showing a coherent vision.

Spif

I'm wondering if some/all classes will have access to some kind of self-CC break. Likely long cooldown and/or high cost. As primarily a grouping game, maybe not.

Mag7spy

Spif wrote: »

I'm wondering if some/all classes will have access to some kind of self-CC break. Likely long cooldown and/or high cost. As primarily a grouping game, maybe not.

I'm sure that will be a thing like every other mmo with protection. There is so much we dont know about combat and how things are going to work.

But people are looking at it not as a alpha but like a game that is releasing. not considering they are looking at a game that is not finished lol. This is stuff ill give feedback as well eventually but when we know how everything with combat works. And even then this isn't a balance pass they are just making the functioning elements work.

Doesn't matter how many times you say it though will always have someone new that comments on it or compares to to games that have not only been finished but been out for like a decade.

Child Item