Mage too much CC

We only saw 11 out of 30-40 ability but we also saw description of 5 more.. and in this 16 abilties already had:
- frozen status effect -> root
- AoE sleep (which should be action tho)
- We can read that meteor will have knock up
- Same with earth spikes, also knock up

All those are hard CC's, and its just 16 abilities, ashes supposed to be a game where you cant CC chain a guy to the ground, but if mage has that many CC, what about rangers, tanks, even fighters. If you combine all of it you get a CC chain fiesta. And okey, you will start getting diminishing returns, but with that amount of Cc the guy will be already almost dead. And if not, if diminishing returns will reduce CCs so hard that you will be almost immunite to them after 3rd stun, then whole CC system as a whole will be fucked up.

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Noaani

I'm not sure why you think this is too much CC.

Keep in mind, these abilities are going to be spread over 8 classes - so right now we have 50% of a CC ability per class.

Ludullu

Do we know for sure if "sends them flying" is a hard CC? I don't remember if we've seen it in action before or heard about its effects.

Also, is root really a hard CC? I thought hard meant "can't do anything at all". Root still allows you to use abilities, which means you might be able to cleanse it or just heal/protect yourself.

So the true hard CC from a mage is the sleep and you can't receive dmg while asleep and we might be able to hit our mates awake, which would make sleep even weaker.

In other words, while the mage does seem to have a ton of CCs, I'd say they aren't as strong as someone like tank or maybe even bard will have.

Songcaller

There will be diminishing returns on cc. I'd rather have a root block harder cc. Soft cc skills are a bane fo hard cc users.

Snekkers

Noaani wrote: »

I'm not sure why you think this is too much CC.

Keep in mind, these abilities are going to be spread over 8 classes - so right now we have 50% of a CC ability per class.

Well, all skills come from base mage, second archetype is just to augment them, so i dont think it spreads that way. But idk

Snekkers

NiKr wrote: »

Do we know for sure if "sends them flying" is a hard CC? I don't remember if we've seen it in action before or heard about its effects.

Also, is root really a hard CC? I thought hard meant "can't do anything at all". Root still allows you to use abilities, which means you might be able to cleanse it or just heal/protect yourself.

So the true hard CC from a mage is the sleep and you can't receive dmg while asleep and we might be able to hit our mates awake, which would make sleep even weaker.

In other words, while the mage does seem to have a ton of CCs, I'd say they aren't as strong as someone like tank or maybe even bard will have.

root is tricky there, cuz usually its soft cc, but steven considers it hard cc. It appears that in ashes everything that takes away your movement or actions.. or both is considered hard cc.. so all silences, sleeps, roots, etc.

That being said no matter what type of cc it is, its harder than slow, and i think having root every 5 procs might be a little to much cc, considering other spells that mage have.

For now its just one cc on proc and 3 cc on abilties, which is.. i guess fine so far, but it was just 16 abilities, so im worried what we will see in those planned 30-40.

And to your first point, pretty sure send flying means know up, which is hard cc

Ludullu

Snekkers wrote: »

That being said no matter what type of cc it is, its harder than slow, and i think having root every 5 procs might be a little to much cc, considering other spells that mage have.

Yeah, I agree with that, but I also think that diminishing returns will address that. Or at least I think they should.

Snekkers wrote: »

And to your first point, pretty sure send flying means know up, which is hard cc

I haven't played a game with that kind of effect so I saw it as just "additional dmg from falling". If it is just another form of stun, then here as well I'd assume diminishing returns will help deal with permastun combos.

Noaani

Snekkers wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I'm not sure why you think this is too much CC.

Keep in mind, these abilities are going to be spread over 8 classes - so right now we have 50% of a CC ability per class.

Well, all skills come from base mage, second archetype is just to augment them, so i dont think it spreads that way. But idk

No, all skills are a part of the mage showcase.

Snekkers

NiKr wrote: »

I haven't played a game with that kind of effect so I saw it as just "additional dmg from falling". If it is just another form of stun, then here as well I'd assume diminishing returns will help deal with permastun combos.

well, maybe, but like i said, if diminishing returns will be too big then suddenly all cc becomes kinda useless, so idk, while i think that diminishing returns is a good idea, i dont think just making it super big is a good balancing strategy

Ludullu

Snekkers wrote: »

well, maybe, but like i said, if diminishing returns will be too big then suddenly all cc becomes kinda useless, so idk, while i think that diminishing returns is a good idea, i dont think just making it super big is a good balancing strategy

If we get good visual feedback about the timer of those diminishing returns then I think it'd be a great way to vary up pvp flow. Instead of just CCing the same 1-2 chars over and over, people would have to use their CCs against the entire enemy party and think about which CC would be better to use first. And then you'd need to keep tabs on the timer on the first target to properly time your CCs and their cds.

Snekkers

NiKr wrote: »

Snekkers wrote: »

well, maybe, but like i said, if diminishing returns will be too big then suddenly all cc becomes kinda useless, so idk, while i think that diminishing returns is a good idea, i dont think just making it super big is a good balancing strategy

If we get good visual feedback about the timer of those diminishing returns then I think it'd be a great way to vary up pvp flow. Instead of just CCing the same 1-2 chars over and over, people would have to use their CCs against the entire enemy party and think about which CC would be better to use first. And then you'd need to keep tabs on the timer on the first target to properly time your CCs and their cds.

yea, im alreayd thinking in the dimention of 10 mages spamming cc in larger fights, so i guess we will have to wait and see, but i just want intrepid to keep that in mind, cuz it can get out of hand really fast

Veeshan

depends how squishy they are, in this situation they seems like there more controling the fight rather than kiting it out there probaly gonna get destroyed by range classes like the ranger where there harder to control and mages probaly be better agaist melee and i would say melee would be better at rangers who dont seem to have to much gap creation atm from what we seen but we havant seen much they had the one ultimate looking ability but thats it but we havant seen much there. Pretty sure were gonna get rock paper scissors where Ranger > mages > Fighter > Ranger thats what im suspecting however we cant realy accuratly comment on any of this balance wise until we get to play the game in a pvp situation. As for PvE the amount of CC doesnt realy matter much.

That also being said game spose to be balance around group play aswell not 1v1 and thats where CC falls off since your not likly gonna be able to control everyone.

Snekkers

sure, im talking about pvp, but i think cc in group fight is even stronger cuz it allows for much more damage while being stunned.

Mag7spy

@Snekkers What do you know about the other abilities on the class kits or their plans for balancing? Do you know what resistances they have in the game or protection on other classes?

If you don't have a answer for above and don't know how things will work, kind of hard to judge what is too much.

Azherae

Mag7spy wrote: »

@Snekkers What do you know about the other abilities on the class kits or their plans for balancing? Do you know what resistances they have in the game or protection on other classes?

If you don't have a answer for above and don't know how things will work, kind of hard to judge what is too much.

It depends on what the person giving feedback is addressing. This isn't a thread claiming 'X is OP!'

A game can take a path where it is perfectly balanced but the way in which it is balanced makes it extremely unfun. I suspect that people complaining about the amount of CC on the Mage are moreso having the internal reaction of 'This isn't going to be fun to play against or around', which isn't usually a pure balance question.

That could be my bias because I usually don't like the 'heavy CC + RNG' path but this time, it might not be, because I don't actually see anything wrong with Ashes' Mage CC amount and Predecessor, which I've been playing recently, also has tons of it.

So, while I understand your reason for scolding @Snekkers, I request that you try to look past the 'snap criticism' in this particular case, because this isn't one of those situations where someone's just 'misinformed' or 'making too many big assumptions', necessarily.

nanfoodle

Paper, rock, seizors game play people. Sleep will have a counter and I am guessing from more then one class.

Spif

Stacking 2 snares causes a knockdown. Stacking 2 disorient causes stun. The impression I get is that melee (tanks, fighters and rogues I assume) will have good CC options on melee attacks.

Most classes are going to have CC options (support classes may have less?), and DR->immunity is going to counterbalance that.

I think a bigger problem is that Mages Shatter burst is tied directly to a root. Get 5 chill stacks on someone and now they're rooted waiting for a lightning bolt.

Mag7spy

Azherae wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

@Snekkers What do you know about the other abilities on the class kits or their plans for balancing? Do you know what resistances they have in the game or protection on other classes?

If you don't have a answer for above and don't know how things will work, kind of hard to judge what is too much.

It depends on what the person giving feedback is addressing. This isn't a thread claiming 'X is OP!'

A game can take a path where it is perfectly balanced but the way in which it is balanced makes it extremely unfun. I suspect that people complaining about the amount of CC on the Mage are moreso having the internal reaction of 'This isn't going to be fun to play against or around', which isn't usually a pure balance question.

That could be my bias because I usually don't like the 'heavy CC + RNG' path but this time, it might not be, because I don't actually see anything wrong with Ashes' Mage CC amount and Predecessor, which I've been playing recently, also has tons of it.

So, while I understand your reason for scolding @Snekkers, I request that you try to look past the 'snap criticism' in this particular case, because this isn't one of those situations where someone's just 'misinformed' or 'making too many big assumptions', necessarily.

Whatever stuns exist could be completely changed at release of the game. That is the point we don't know how anything works, complaining about balance when they aren't doing that right now is pointless. They are making things work, they will get to more testing when they get there.

My earlier point i could relate BDO with the amount of cc you have int hat game on low CD, but you have super armor, iframe and movement rotations to prevent getting cc'd.

Like i could go the route on saying why it isn't too much cc, but all of this is arguing thin air until it is being actually played against other classes with similar kits and we know what everything can do somewhat atleast.

Vaknar

This has already been mentioned, but CC abilities will have diminishing returns. Balance passes and more finalized numbers will be a goal during testing. We look forward to parsing the feedback of the Mage's kit once players are able to play with the Mage during Alpha Two!

tautau

Something we don't know, and won't really know until release, is the designers' intention with regards to mob density and aggressiveness. Of course, it will vary from place to place, but a possibility is that critters will end up more numerous, more aggressive and more powerful than is the norm in other games. Moreso than we are used to.

If this is a 'yet to be revealed' design objective, we might just find that the amount and types of CC that we have all grown accustomed to just won't be sufficient in AoC. Maybe that is why we are seeing to many CC.

Okeydoke

I wonder and suspect the same thing

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