Noaani wrote: » nanfoodle wrote: » Noaani wrote: » nanfoodle wrote: » Yup more or less what I said. I dont see this Mage as a PvP class unless thats all added with subclasses. No, the primary focus of what you said was that the mage won't be viable in PvP. The comment about subclasses was a literal afterthought. The post you quoted and then said that it is "more or less what you said" was saying that first and foremost, we have seen a showcase of an alpha build of the class, with the notion of subclasses being thrown in as an afterthought. Nope but you can try again if you like. Never even said anything about PvP being an after thought. You just putting words into my mouth. Quote me just one place I said that. lol your killing me lol. To sum up my thought. Mage looks like a standard mage. Does not look like much of a skill set I would carry into PvP. I hope the sub classes add more depth in that area, as I dont see the Mage as anything I would say of looking like something that will stand out for PvP. Also, Im not game bashing, just giving my observations. I 100% get this is a preview of a class and I am giving my feedback in hopes IS has something to work with to improve the class.
nanfoodle wrote: » Noaani wrote: » nanfoodle wrote: » Yup more or less what I said. I dont see this Mage as a PvP class unless thats all added with subclasses. No, the primary focus of what you said was that the mage won't be viable in PvP. The comment about subclasses was a literal afterthought. The post you quoted and then said that it is "more or less what you said" was saying that first and foremost, we have seen a showcase of an alpha build of the class, with the notion of subclasses being thrown in as an afterthought. Nope but you can try again if you like. Never even said anything about PvP being an after thought. You just putting words into my mouth. Quote me just one place I said that. lol your killing me lol. To sum up my thought. Mage looks like a standard mage. Does not look like much of a skill set I would carry into PvP. I hope the sub classes add more depth in that area, as I dont see the Mage as anything I would say of looking like something that will stand out for PvP. Also, Im not game bashing, just giving my observations. I 100% get this is a preview of a class and I am giving my feedback in hopes IS has something to work with to improve the class.
Noaani wrote: » nanfoodle wrote: » Yup more or less what I said. I dont see this Mage as a PvP class unless thats all added with subclasses. No, the primary focus of what you said was that the mage won't be viable in PvP. The comment about subclasses was a literal afterthought. The post you quoted and then said that it is "more or less what you said" was saying that first and foremost, we have seen a showcase of an alpha build of the class, with the notion of subclasses being thrown in as an afterthought.
nanfoodle wrote: » Yup more or less what I said. I dont see this Mage as a PvP class unless thats all added with subclasses.
nanfoodle wrote: » Never even said anything about PvP being an after thought.
Noaani wrote: » nanfoodle wrote: » Never even said anything about PvP being an after thought. I never said you did. The only comment I made in regards to the word "afterthought" was in relation to you adding in your thoughts about mage subclasses after presenting the bulk of your thoughts - making those comments of yours an afterthought. Taking a leaf from you, feel free to quote me where I said that you said anything about PvP being an afterthought.
nanfoodle wrote: » Kilion wrote: » Rym wrote: » The mage reveal looked neat, but left me somewhat disappointed in the playstyle of the mage and with a lot of concerns about it's viability in PvP. Can I invite you to explain why it wouldn't be viable in PvP? I thought much the same thing. Seems mostly a glass cannon with little defense. The Ice abilities that can lead to rooting, Sleep for CC (seems weak for PvP IMO), and shield bubble. Dont seem to be enough to deal with players kits that have high DPS and ground closing skills. For me, I would like to see Blink for instance to drop a snare AoE at the point of launch. (Maybe that will come with sub classes) For a PvP game, the Mage kit really lacks much for dealing with what a mage would face in PvP. Focus fire. All the PvP games I have played, healers and highest end DPS always get focus fired. Quick and easy to kill with the fastest way to change the battle outcome. I just didnt see anything that made me go, ya that class will rock in PvP.
Kilion wrote: » Rym wrote: » The mage reveal looked neat, but left me somewhat disappointed in the playstyle of the mage and with a lot of concerns about it's viability in PvP. Can I invite you to explain why it wouldn't be viable in PvP?
Rym wrote: » The mage reveal looked neat, but left me somewhat disappointed in the playstyle of the mage and with a lot of concerns about it's viability in PvP.
Kilion wrote: » nanfoodle wrote: » Kilion wrote: » Rym wrote: » The mage reveal looked neat, but left me somewhat disappointed in the playstyle of the mage and with a lot of concerns about it's viability in PvP. Can I invite you to explain why it wouldn't be viable in PvP? I thought much the same thing. Seems mostly a glass cannon with little defense. The Ice abilities that can lead to rooting, Sleep for CC (seems weak for PvP IMO), and shield bubble. Dont seem to be enough to deal with players kits that have high DPS and ground closing skills. For me, I would like to see Blink for instance to drop a snare AoE at the point of launch. (Maybe that will come with sub classes) For a PvP game, the Mage kit really lacks much for dealing with what a mage would face in PvP. Focus fire. All the PvP games I have played, healers and highest end DPS always get focus fired. Quick and easy to kill with the fastest way to change the battle outcome. I just didnt see anything that made me go, ya that class will rock in PvP. Well, I have a few thoughts on that. First, skills are something like 50% of a characters overall strength. Just because there is no wide array of defensive skills doesn't mean they pop on touch. Especially when wearing a good plate armor or so. Second, the game is not balanced yet, but it is also not meant to be balanced from a 1v1 perspective. Instead we probably have to consider how much synergy the mage will have with other classes to increase his survival chances when meeting his natural enemies - assassin types. Third, if we take the 1v1 perspective, the mage has more than enough mobility to and fire power to keep a bruiser archetype at arms length and chunk them down with combos. Rock-paper-scissors, for now, seems to apply. Fourth, we haven't seen the full skill kit. Not only because at least one element has been missing (fire) but also because the character display as far as I am aware the skills shown were not representative for what the mage skill set would in total be composed of at lets say lv 15, as this was the level prior reveals have been allocated at. The skills were specifically chosen to primarily display the elemental status mechanics. And lastly, it seems worth remembering that we have to exclude the possible effects things like talents have on skills. I wouldn't be surprised if mobility skill cooldowns, ranges or e.g. slow from chill stacks could be added by investing talent points into those skills. We haven't seen any of this yet and I suspect we won't until A2. Suffice to say, the showcase might not be the best foundation on which to make that judgement, even though I understand that you would want to do so. This imo was not a FULL class reveal but a base mechanics reveal, just like with all the others prior.
nanfoodle wrote: » Kilion wrote: » nanfoodle wrote: » Kilion wrote: » Rym wrote: » The mage reveal looked neat, but left me somewhat disappointed in the playstyle of the mage and with a lot of concerns about it's viability in PvP. Can I invite you to explain why it wouldn't be viable in PvP? I thought much the same thing. Seems mostly a glass cannon with little defense. The Ice abilities that can lead to rooting, Sleep for CC (seems weak for PvP IMO), and shield bubble. Dont seem to be enough to deal with players kits that have high DPS and ground closing skills. For me, I would like to see Blink for instance to drop a snare AoE at the point of launch. (Maybe that will come with sub classes) For a PvP game, the Mage kit really lacks much for dealing with what a mage would face in PvP. Focus fire. All the PvP games I have played, healers and highest end DPS always get focus fired. Quick and easy to kill with the fastest way to change the battle outcome. I just didnt see anything that made me go, ya that class will rock in PvP. Well, I have a few thoughts on that. First, skills are something like 50% of a characters overall strength. Just because there is no wide array of defensive skills doesn't mean they pop on touch. Especially when wearing a good plate armor or so. Second, the game is not balanced yet, but it is also not meant to be balanced from a 1v1 perspective. Instead we probably have to consider how much synergy the mage will have with other classes to increase his survival chances when meeting his natural enemies - assassin types. Third, if we take the 1v1 perspective, the mage has more than enough mobility to and fire power to keep a bruiser archetype at arms length and chunk them down with combos. Rock-paper-scissors, for now, seems to apply. Fourth, we haven't seen the full skill kit. Not only because at least one element has been missing (fire) but also because the character display as far as I am aware the skills shown were not representative for what the mage skill set would in total be composed of at lets say lv 15, as this was the level prior reveals have been allocated at. The skills were specifically chosen to primarily display the elemental status mechanics. And lastly, it seems worth remembering that we have to exclude the possible effects things like talents have on skills. I wouldn't be surprised if mobility skill cooldowns, ranges or e.g. slow from chill stacks could be added by investing talent points into those skills. We haven't seen any of this yet and I suspect we won't until A2. Suffice to say, the showcase might not be the best foundation on which to make that judgement, even though I understand that you would want to do so. This imo was not a FULL class reveal but a base mechanics reveal, just like with all the others prior. Agreed. Yet IS asks for feedback and has a thread enterally for that. I wish they had went a little deeper into some of the things you mentioned, as I have allot of questions in that area as well. For me, I am not a big 1v1 player. Im all about large encounters, like in ESO Cyrodiil and DAoC Battle Grounds. Most of my feedback is towards that area of game play. Where classes like this are either too powerful or just a fly to swat out of the way. I dont agree with your feedback that you think the Mage has solid mobility, as I think that where is at its weakest. Correct me if I am wrong but one Blink spell does not make solid Mobility. If I remember right, with my WoW Mage, I had Blink and my Strider ability to get away, both on different timers. I also had a few skills that snared or rooted. Cone of cold, Ice Spells (all had snare or root) as well. And it was allot to keep melee classes off my toes and most PvP games I have played gave them Wizard/Mage classes just as many options. I just dont see that here but as you said, maybe that comes from other areas.
Kilion wrote: » nanfoodle wrote: » Kilion wrote: » nanfoodle wrote: » Kilion wrote: » Rym wrote: » The mage reveal looked neat, but left me somewhat disappointed in the playstyle of the mage and with a lot of concerns about it's viability in PvP. Can I invite you to explain why it wouldn't be viable in PvP? I thought much the same thing. Seems mostly a glass cannon with little defense. The Ice abilities that can lead to rooting, Sleep for CC (seems weak for PvP IMO), and shield bubble. Dont seem to be enough to deal with players kits that have high DPS and ground closing skills. For me, I would like to see Blink for instance to drop a snare AoE at the point of launch. (Maybe that will come with sub classes) For a PvP game, the Mage kit really lacks much for dealing with what a mage would face in PvP. Focus fire. All the PvP games I have played, healers and highest end DPS always get focus fired. Quick and easy to kill with the fastest way to change the battle outcome. I just didnt see anything that made me go, ya that class will rock in PvP. Well, I have a few thoughts on that. First, skills are something like 50% of a characters overall strength. Just because there is no wide array of defensive skills doesn't mean they pop on touch. Especially when wearing a good plate armor or so. Second, the game is not balanced yet, but it is also not meant to be balanced from a 1v1 perspective. Instead we probably have to consider how much synergy the mage will have with other classes to increase his survival chances when meeting his natural enemies - assassin types. Third, if we take the 1v1 perspective, the mage has more than enough mobility to and fire power to keep a bruiser archetype at arms length and chunk them down with combos. Rock-paper-scissors, for now, seems to apply. Fourth, we haven't seen the full skill kit. Not only because at least one element has been missing (fire) but also because the character display as far as I am aware the skills shown were not representative for what the mage skill set would in total be composed of at lets say lv 15, as this was the level prior reveals have been allocated at. The skills were specifically chosen to primarily display the elemental status mechanics. And lastly, it seems worth remembering that we have to exclude the possible effects things like talents have on skills. I wouldn't be surprised if mobility skill cooldowns, ranges or e.g. slow from chill stacks could be added by investing talent points into those skills. We haven't seen any of this yet and I suspect we won't until A2. Suffice to say, the showcase might not be the best foundation on which to make that judgement, even though I understand that you would want to do so. This imo was not a FULL class reveal but a base mechanics reveal, just like with all the others prior. Agreed. Yet IS asks for feedback and has a thread enterally for that. I wish they had went a little deeper into some of the things you mentioned, as I have allot of questions in that area as well. For me, I am not a big 1v1 player. Im all about large encounters, like in ESO Cyrodiil and DAoC Battle Grounds. Most of my feedback is towards that area of game play. Where classes like this are either too powerful or just a fly to swat out of the way. I dont agree with your feedback that you think the Mage has solid mobility, as I think that where is at its weakest. Correct me if I am wrong but one Blink spell does not make solid Mobility. If I remember right, with my WoW Mage, I had Blink and my Strider ability to get away, both on different timers. I also had a few skills that snared or rooted. Cone of cold, Ice Spells (all had snare or root) as well. And it was allot to keep melee classes off my toes and most PvP games I have played gave them Wizard/Mage classes just as many options. I just dont see that here but as you said, maybe that comes from other areas. Okay, I might need to clarify this further. "Mobility" in a character referred to them being able to move, which includes skills but is not limited to it. And without this being a separate point, I say again that it made sense to only show 1 mobility skill because the showcase was about the elemental empowerment mechanics, rather than a full explanation of the full skill set. Positioning will be key with a mage of that I am pretty sure and that is because they have superior damage potential but they obviously sacrifice defense for that and some mobility, which puts them below other classes without becoming the bottom in terms of mobility. "Solid mobility" meant that full leveled Mages will probably 2-3 mobility skills, are able to move even during channeled skills and have passive CC elements to. I think that provides some decent mobility when looking at other classes like the tank or the cleric. And honestly, I am not sure what the expectation is here. A mage with the damage potential of that class can't have mobility like a rouge or fighter, that would break the games balance. So even though I agree that the mage will be probably in the middle range when it comes to mobility, I think that is exactly where good game design should put them, since there cant be a good game with classes that have no weaknesses.
nanfoodle wrote: » I have said many things on the Mage class I would like to see added or improved. Do you have any suggestions or feedback on what I hope gets added to the class.
Noaani wrote: » nanfoodle wrote: » I have said many things on the Mage class I would like to see added or improved. Do you have any suggestions or feedback on what I hope gets added to the class. Not yet, no. I'll wait until I am hands on with it. By doing that, I am waiting until the class is in a state Intrepid want consider viable to play, and I am not forming any opinions based on how the class looks (which I don't care about), but rather will form my entire opinion based on how the class plays (which I do care about). To me, this seems logical. Intrepid have already shown a willingness to trash something if it isn't working, so any argument that alpha 2 is too late holds no weight. Honestly, the notion of having an opinion on the progress of any class in Ashes at this point is just baffling to me.
Kilion wrote: » How is saying that something is baffeling to someone "an attack"? Or to put that into your words: "Lol"
Kilion wrote: » How is saying that something is baffeling to someone "an attack"?
Neurath wrote: » Anyone know if its bard or summoner after rogue? I think we might go to phase 2 of the current previews before bard or summoner which would suck.
nanfoodle wrote: » My suggestion that seems logical to me. IS has really big shoulders. Over being baffled follow the link below, given so backers and fans can give feedback on what they are developing. You sound like a intelligent gamer. Give your thoughts over attacking people for doing what IS is asking us all to do https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/55520/dev-discussion-51-let-s-discuss-the-mage#latest
nanfoodle wrote: » Kilion wrote: » How is saying that something is baffeling to someone "an attack"? Or to put that into your words: "Lol" I can't help but laugh. Every invation I give to talk about the game. Is responded by anything but discussions about the game. I laugh because he is baffled about giving opinions about a game on a forum that's designed just for that. IS keeps inviting us to do so. He keeps trying to engage me with replies that have nothing to do with the game. If he has no opinion about the game, I suggest he stops replying to me. I'm not here to make friends or enemies. I come here just to make sure the things I care about in this game. My voice gets to be heard. IS can decide what to do with that. My money is here to be won or lost. EDIT: And now this reply is also QFT =-D
Mag7spy wrote: » nanfoodle wrote: » Kilion wrote: » How is saying that something is baffeling to someone "an attack"? Or to put that into your words: "Lol" I can't help but laugh. Every invation I give to talk about the game. Is responded by anything but discussions about the game. I laugh because he is baffled about giving opinions about a game on a forum that's designed just for that. IS keeps inviting us to do so. He keeps trying to engage me with replies that have nothing to do with the game. If he has no opinion about the game, I suggest he stops replying to me. I'm not here to make friends or enemies. I come here just to make sure the things I care about in this game. My voice gets to be heard. IS can decide what to do with that. My money is here to be won or lost. EDIT: And now this reply is also QFT =-D See the issue here is you have concerns about a incomplete content and you have people here saying it isn't viable so it wont work or be useful so no one will be playing it. This is like watching someone make a apple pie, and they are working on the crust first. And you start yelling this apple pie is going to be garbage no one will like it there are no apples in it. And the person hasn't even got to all the other steps to make it. Its a argument that makes 0 sense, you have having concerns that exceed the current desire of feed back they are looking for. They ask certain question for the feed back, there are some skills you can see and have some thoughts on it but again it shouldn't be expected to be a deep dive. If you are comparing other COMPLETE GAMES and using that for your comparisons for ashes of creation which is a game in DEVELOPMENT. That is the issue. You have to be understanding there is a lot you don't know about the game at the moment. So give feedback on what they are asking for, not feedback on things you think are missing or balancing issues. If this was in alpha 2 where it was playable for everyone (which you still need to realize it won't be the full kit being lvl 35) or they gave a full deep dive on the class and what it can do, that would be a different story.
