Misses, resists and other combat RNG

What are people's thought on the topic of RNG in combat?

1) My impression is that there will be no RNG misses or resists of damaging attacks. Same goes for effects from attacks like DoTs, CC or debuffs. If someone sends it your way, and you don't have a specific effect that keeps from landing, it's going to stick. You may be able to reduce the damage with resists/armor stats, but it won't just be completely nullified. I bring that up because after the mage preview I've been seeing a lot of comparisons to systems where you just stack resists to a specific element to not get hit by it.

2) RNG blocks, dodges or parries. My understanding is that the default level of evade/block/parry will be 0%. I don't think we've seen anything official related to this from the Devs other than active block showcased in the tank preview. There are a lot of options .Tank and rogue are the most likely classes to have something like this. Either as a passive X% chance to block/evade damage, or as an active buff that gives an X% chance. But since all classes could have rogue/tank/other

#1: IMO for a modern MMO, RNG missing/resists are not needed. It's just too huge of a benefit for an attack to completely miss, especially in a cooldown based system.

For #2, I'm also not a fan of anything passive. But a moderate-to-long-cooldown RNG-based defensive buff would be ok (Ex: gain 30% evade chance for the next 5 seconds). Even better would be a cooldown based buff that negates the next attack against you. I'm more interested in having active block or iframes incorporated into the dodge roll

Find more posts tagged with

Staff

Comments

Solmyr

Autoattacks, RNG-based evades, and automatic blocking are the combat equivalent of autopathing.

Noaani

Solmyr wrote: »

Autoattacks, RNG-based evades, and automatic blocking are the combat equivalent of autopathing.

I mean, this is a bad take.

JamesSunderland

Spif wrote: »

What are people's thought on the topic of RNG in combat?

1) My impression is that there will be no RNG misses or resists of damaging attacks. Same goes for effects from attacks like DoTs, CC or debuffs. If someone sends it your way, and you don't have a specific effect that keeps from landing, it's going to stick. You may be able to reduce the damage with resists/armor stats, but it won't just be completely nullified. I bring that up because after the mage preview I've been seeing a lot of comparisons to systems where you just stack resists to a specific element to not get hit by it.

2) RNG blocks, dodges or parries. My understanding is that the default level of evade/block/parry will be 0%. I don't think we've seen anything official related to this from the Devs other than active block showcased in the tank preview. There are a lot of options .Tank and rogue are the most likely classes to have something like this. Either as a passive X% chance to block/evade damage, or as an active buff that gives an X% chance. But since all classes could have rogue/tank/other

#1: IMO for a modern MMO, RNG missing/resists are not needed. It's just too huge of a benefit for an attack to completely miss, especially in a cooldown based system.

For #2, I'm also not a fan of anything passive. But a moderate-to-long-cooldown RNG-based defensive buff would be ok (Ex: gain 30% evade chance for the next 5 seconds). Even better would be a cooldown based buff that negates the next attack against you. I'm more interested in having active block or iframes incorporated into the dodge roll

In the 1°) point, what gives you the impression that "There will be no RNG misses or resists of damaging attacks. Same goes for effects from attacks like DoTs, CC or debuffs." and your understanding that "the default level of evade/block/parry will be 0%."?

My Expectations, impression and understanding is the complete opposite of yours because things present in Alpha 1:

Physical Disable Modifier
Physical Disable Defense
Physical Accuracy
Physical Evasion Bonus
Physical Block Chance
Magical Disable Chance
Magical Accuracy
Magical Block Chance

All of those Stats were derived from from Base Stats. https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Stats

Also, the main games Ashes gets inspirations from (Lineage 2 and ArcheAge) and such RNG variables inside their combat.

As for what are my thoughts on the topic of RNG in combat,
i believe RNG is essential for having a combat system with depth in terms of unpredictability and adaptability skill, those aspects certainly provides me with extra enjoyment.

RNGless combat feels way less entertaining for me due to how much more predictable it often is, it feels limited, static and souless for me.

I Believe RNG in Ashes will have an extra importance to keep Tab Target Skills in check other than small i-frames defensive options. Being able to evade/block/parry otherwise unavoidable(by simple movement) Tab Target Skills and the possible Debuffs/CCs attached to them (Which would be an insane advantage over Action skills even tho we know most CC is expected to be house in Action skills).

Lodrig

Spif wrote: »

I don't think missing should be more prevalent for longer ranged attacks just so that retreating can be more successful. If the attacks are numerous enough that it rapidly averages out, this in essence becomes:

Ranged attacks do less damage the further away you are from your target, due to misses. And I don't like that at all. It means ranged will always have to try to be as close as possible to deal full damage.

Without a range drop off the ranged attacker will always attack at maximum range instead. Most ranged attackers will be trying to avoid melee attacks from their targets aka kiting, so they already have an incentive to maintain distance from the target no matter what their damage output is. By varying damage output an actual risk-reward tradeoff is created for both the sides.

Songcaller

Rangers can't shoot within 5 meters. Wanting to gimp them at range too will destroy the class.

Lodrig

Neurath wrote: »

Rangers can't shoot within 5 meters. Wanting to gimp them at range too will destroy the class.

It may come as a surprise to you but them exists an entire genre of games which involve shooting other players which would let us test your theory, invariably the farther away the other players are in these games the harder it is to shoot them.

Ultimately just making an assumption that balance will be bad. I haven't spoken at all about what the maximum range or damage of an arrow should be.

Songcaller

Some games increase damage at max range. The point remains that rangers are already gimped in close combat and don't need to be gimped at max range. Normalised damage would be enough.

Lodrig

We're talking about chance to hit here, not damage, no game makes the chance to hit higher at longer range.

Again, your just making unfounded assumption at best and bad faith arguments at worst. Maximum range is not a fixed immovable value, nor is an arrows base damage value. Both could go up such that DPS could be nearly any value. I'm simply asserting that a downward sloping curve on a range/DPS plot is what is needed to provide a good counter play for and against the Ranger.

Songcaller

Longbow range in real life is 300m. Ranger can fire 50 to 75 meters. I think its fine to have full operation at 50 to 75 meters. There is already action shots which can miss at any range, there is no reason to add miss chance at max range when it already exists at any range. Furthermore, some even want to add rng into the mix which I disagree with.

Lodrig

Your inability to interpret my statements as anything OTHER then a pure nerf applied as a last step on top of existing gameplay is becoming tiresome. The TOTAL miss chance could very well be 0% out to 50 meters and then increases 1% per meter after that with a 150m maximum range where your misses reach 100%.

The fact that miss chance currently exists at all ranges, and which is presumably a flat chance is exactly the OPPOSITE of what I'm calling for because that is a flat DPS/range curve. Miss chances should be near zero at close range and with the max range just being the point when miss chance has reach sufficiently close to 100% that their is no more point in firing.

BtW, 300m was range for mass area bombardment by archers firing in arcs, ranges to shoot man size targets were far less, though obviously Fantasy settings and Elves claim to fame is inhuman accuracy which is why you want a Dex stat or something similar to be used in the range-increment calculation so you can build a character for accuracy.

Songcaller

Rng through stealth is shitter than basic rng by dice. You keep trying to turn ashes into other games and I'm only telling you about the current systems. Missing at any range is based on skill of the player not some arbitrary number plucked from someone's ass.

Korela

Random is boring. Combat random is extra boring. I don't see the percentages. I see an approximate number of attempts I have to perform to achieve a goal. So I'd have to repeat my rotation like 100 times until my stun procs... and my attack shouldn't miss... and it should be critical... and my dmg rng should be high enough to win. And if my opponent is luckier than me then I lost (and vice-versa). The value of winning is blurred in probabilities. The only thing player can do is to get better gear, repeat his plan 1000 more times and pray harder. Not skill, but luck. Not a tactic, but skirmish. This is just tedious.

unknown

This content has been removed.

Mag7spy

Random is not boring lmao.

Korela wrote: »

Random is boring. Combat random is extra boring. I don't see the percentages. I see an approximate number of attempts I have to perform to achieve a goal. So I'd have to repeat my rotation like 100 times until my stun procs... and my attack shouldn't miss... and it should be critical... and my dmg rng should be high enough to win. And if my opponent is luckier than me then I lost (and vice-versa). The value of winning is blurred in probabilities. The only thing player can do is to get better gear, repeat his plan 1000 more times and pray harder. Not skill, but luck. Not a tactic, but skirmish. This is just tedious.

Depraved

should we allow all stuns and cc to land with 100% chance? then whats the point of increasing a defensive stat? maybe reduce duration?
ok then all stuns land but they only last 0.5 seconds to make them balanced, then 2 more land and now you have immunity from diminishing returns. whats the point then? might as well just remove them and give me a dps ability.

too much rng feels bad, but also no rng feels bad in tab target

Songcaller

The issue around cc is that they will have diminishing returns. That can mean one of two things:

Reduced duration with consequetive use

Or

Windows after cc where cc can't be used.

When I mention diminishing returns I mean the second one and I hope it will be the case.

Mag7spy

Depraved wrote: »

should we allow all stuns and cc to land with 100% chance? then whats the point of increasing a defensive stat? maybe reduce duration?
ok then all stuns land but they only last 0.5 seconds to make them balanced, then 2 more land and now you have immunity from diminishing returns. whats the point then? might as well just remove them and give me a dps ability.

too much rng feels bad, but also no rng feels bad in tab target

This comes down to people not knowing what they want except for only good things.

They want 100% chance to cc, plus 100% chance for that extra bonus dmg, with 100% evasion stat defensive bonus.

Even if it was full action based there should still be rng lmao. This is a mmorpg. Without rng / dice rolls those games are flat and boring. Everything becomes ultra repetitive

ie Attack 3 times and get guaranteed cc, use ability 4 times to apply poison, every 5 attacks crit

This kind of stuff is stale

Songcaller

Aim small, miss small. No rng required.

unknown

This content has been removed.

Songcaller

Can you imagine how op an evasion tank would be if rng miss was also added on top?

Child Item