Throne & Liberty : finaly so different (edit)

"Get out fast AoC or you’ll be overtaken by Throne & Liberty" I’ve seen this comment many times. now I’m sure these two games don’t have much to do with it.

For my part, botting options are absolutely repulsive, and the opposite of what I look for in an MMO, namely the investment and the value it gives to the gaming experience.

Pwahahaha who wants to pay a battle pass to activate offline boting? Paying for not playing is great : the inovation of the century

In short, fully supports the AoC project, take the time I trust in your passionate approach!

Edit : My original title / post was definitely uninspired and toxic. On a better day today, I prefer to avoid that;)

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Ludullu

It's a competitor in looks and optimization. No loading on TPs and the game looks incredible even though it's on UE4. And big gatherings of people seem to not lag all that much.

I've heard that it's kinda bad on really old graphics cards, so I'm kinda fucked, but I dunno if UE5 will be any better in that regard.

Heljy

I assume that 'here at what AoC comes out, the average performance of the PC fleet will have increased. But you have to admit that the game has at least that.

I was mainly talking about the gameplay consisting mainly of boting. seriously, this game invented the MMO with built-in bot, it’s crazy I think.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think the public who are in AoC’s vision would be interested in that.

Ludullu

Heljy wrote: »

I was mainly talking about the gameplay consisting mainly of boting. seriously, this game invented the MMO with built-in bot, it’s crazy I think.

This game didn't invent anything. They copied mechanics that have been in other mmos (mainly the Lineage series) for over a decade iirc.

Heljy wrote: »

I could be wrong, but I don’t think the public who are in AoC’s vision would be interested in that.

Yeah, the majority would definitely dislike it, but Ashes is targeting the older demographic and they're also planning to have a pretty hardcore game that requires a ton of time investment. Time that this old demographic doesn't have. This pushes that demographic towards rmt and/or botting (because they have the money for that). So, as much of a meme as it is, auto-play removes that push.

Obviously the farm design suffers from that, but I do think that this will be the future that the west just currently rejects. The current mmo trend is to completely skip low lvl content to then offload a shitton of grind on you at the end of the story. The other side (that's usually in eastern mmos) is to just have a very long grind all throughout. Ashes is going for that second route.

But both of those include grind. And someone out there will definitely automate it illegally, be it through software or super cheap labor. And this will ruin the game for the remaining majority that either don't want to cheat or don't have the money for it. Blizzard decided to "solve" this issue by straight up selling their own p2w currency and NCsoft "solved" it by giving everyone their own bot. It's up to you to decide which one is worse. For me, Bliz way is worse.

Voxtrium

NiKr wrote: »

It's a competitor in looks and optimization. No loading on TPs and the game looks incredible even though it's on UE4. And big gatherings of people seem to not lag all that much.

I've heard that it's kinda bad on really old graphics cards, so I'm kinda fucked, but I dunno if UE5 will be any better in that regard.

just upgrade to the 5000 series already

Ludullu

Voxtrium wrote: »

just upgrade to the 5000 series already

Yeah, just let me get $2k out of thin air and I'm on it

Voxtrium

More like 5k to upgrade the rest of the computer, otherwise ur just going to have an amazing bottleneck haha

WHIT3ROS3

If there is one thing I absolutely cannot stand, it's the juvenile pack mentality of pitting games against games, consoles against consoles, companies against companies and products and products. The fact that T&L is looking like garbage is bad for all of us, the consumer. A healthy MMO space with multiple viable options is what is good.

Depraved

Heljy wrote: »

I assume that 'here at what AoC comes out, the average performance of the PC fleet will have increased. But you have to admit that the game has at least that.

I was mainly talking about the gameplay consisting mainly of boting. seriously, this game invented the MMO with built-in bot, it’s crazy I think.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think the public who are in AoC’s vision would be interested in that.

tbh u progress faster if u play manually. i still don't like auto farm much but oh well...everything else about the game is ok.

the only reason it might not be a competitor for aoc is because they target different audiences who play mmorpg.

but FYI these type of games make billions. just treat it as a mobile game you can play on pc

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Heljy wrote: »

I was mainly talking about the gameplay consisting mainly of boting. seriously, this game invented the MMO with built-in bot, it’s crazy I think.

This game didn't invent anything. They copied mechanics that have been in other mmos (mainly the Lineage series) for over a decade iirc.

Heljy wrote: »

I could be wrong, but I don’t think the public who are in AoC’s vision would be interested in that.

Yeah, the majority would definitely dislike it, but Ashes is targeting the older demographic and they're also planning to have a pretty hardcore game that requires a ton of time investment. Time that this old demographic doesn't have. This pushes that demographic towards rmt and/or botting (because they have the money for that). So, as much of a meme as it is, auto-play removes that push.

Obviously the farm design suffers from that, but I do think that this will be the future that the west just currently rejects. The current mmo trend is to completely skip low lvl content to then offload a shitton of grind on you at the end of the story. The other side (that's usually in eastern mmos) is to just have a very long grind all throughout. Ashes is going for that second route.

But both of those include grind. And someone out there will definitely automate it illegally, be it through software or super cheap labor. And this will ruin the game for the remaining majority that either don't want to cheat or don't have the money for it. Blizzard decided to "solve" this issue by straight up selling their own p2w currency and NCsoft "solved" it by giving everyone their own bot. It's up to you to decide which one is worse. For me, Bliz way is worse.

I have to disagree with AoC targeting a older demographic, you can tell in their streams even if they agree the game isn't for everyone they are trying to make a very very successful mmorpg. And the gameplay they are making is not gameplay for combat akin to a mmorpg 20 years ago.

If you asked them as developers if they are trying to make the game like T&L I assume many of them would be so far from that take. No company wants to be int he boat that company is in right now or follow the same foot steps where the entire mmorpg community is saying DoA.

Most people see T&L only for people that still play L2 or mobile games which is not a good sign for making a successful game.

Mag7spy

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

If there is one thing I absolutely cannot stand, it's the juvenile pack mentality of pitting games against games, consoles against consoles, companies against companies and products and products. The fact that T&L is looking like garbage is bad for all of us, the consumer. A healthy MMO space with multiple viable options is what is good.

This is what happens when there are so few mmorpgs, and with anything in general. People compare games it is normal. That is how you find out what you like, and what you don't.

Now if we are talking about hate trains on internet that is something different. But the more ad games out there the more people will follow this trend and accept it without diving any deeper.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

I have to disagree with AoC targeting a older demographic, you can tell in their streams even if they agree the game isn't for everyone they are trying to make a very very successful mmorpg. And the gameplay they are making is not gameplay for combat akin to a mmorpg 20 years ago.

If you asked them as developers if they are trying to make the game like T&L I assume many of them would be so far from that take. No company wants to be int he boat that company is in right now or follow the same foot steps where the entire mmorpg community is saying DoA.

There's very few conveniences that the current mmo playerbase is used to. I hope I'm wrong, but rn I think that the game will just not appeal to the younger audience.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I have to disagree with AoC targeting a older demographic, you can tell in their streams even if they agree the game isn't for everyone they are trying to make a very very successful mmorpg. And the gameplay they are making is not gameplay for combat akin to a mmorpg 20 years ago.

If you asked them as developers if they are trying to make the game like T&L I assume many of them would be so far from that take. No company wants to be int he boat that company is in right now or follow the same foot steps where the entire mmorpg community is saying DoA.

There's very few conveniences that the current mmo playerbase is used to. I hope I'm wrong, but rn I think that the game will just not appeal to the younger audience.

So what age audience are we talking about? Are we talking about not appealing to people younger than 50 or 55 on average? Maybe you can stretch that to 45. Though I'm leaning towards younger when it goes to 40-45 as well in not being as interested in the game within that age range if it is bad on based on what people say.

Then within that older group we need to look at people that have quit and don't play those types of games anymore for family, time, etc. And the people within that age range that played games or never cared for them.

Again we are getting into a smaller and smaller group on it, and game develop is more expensive than it has ever been.

I've never once saw for AoC them trying to only market to an older generation, because that won't make a successful big a mmorpg. As mmorpgs in the past it should be marketed to everyone because when we get into more PvP heavy mmorpgs you literarily do need everyone not subset group of a subset group.

Again in their streams listening to their language and passion they want the game to be big, they believe it will be but are also being a bit humble. Steven talking to a lot of big mmorpg streamers is already a sign including asmongold which by default I'd view him as having a youngers audience.

To point out saying the mmorpg is not for everyone, there has never been a point where it was said not for the younger crowd. It simply means a mix of them making the mmorpg they want in the way of their being some serious pvp. It isn't about age range for younger or older unless there is a quote I'm missing.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Steven talking to a lot of big mmorpg streamers is already a sign including asmongold which by default I'd view him as having a youngers audience.

Asmon himself said that his audience is ~28++. And I'm talking about 30-40 range. Those who were around teen years back when the inspirations for Ashes were still kinda popular and at their peak.

Young audience is the current teens up to maybe 22-25. Pretty much anyone in studying period of their life (outside of those who're studying at 40 cause their life allows them to).

Steven is kinda making the game for himself, so people around his age would most likely be the TA, because they'd be the most likely ones to have a similar life experience and would have enough nostalgia for those days to want their return.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Steven talking to a lot of big mmorpg streamers is already a sign including asmongold which by default I'd view him as having a youngers audience.

Asmon himself said that his audience is ~28++. And I'm talking about 30-40 range. Those who were around teen years back when the inspirations for Ashes were still kinda popular and at their peak.

Young audience is the current teens up to maybe 22-25. Pretty much anyone in studying period of their life (outside of those who're studying at 40 cause their life allows them to).

Steven is kinda making the game for himself, so people around his age would most likely be the TA, because they'd be the most likely ones to have a similar life experience and would have enough nostalgia for those days to want their return.

If we are talking about mmo gameplay from 20 years ago I don't believe that matches the majority of players for AoC then.

There are a lot of factors we need to look at, and why i say 40 is a stretch we would need to go by more so the average age of people playing mmorpgs, than trying to use the youngest range possible. Easy number to throw for average is is 35, but we could stretch it and say the average age is 30 (which isn't realistic to me during the 2003 time period where far less people gamed or had access to them).

Than throwing 20 years on all their ages (with AoC not even having released yet btw of course) had you already have an insanely older and much smaller demographic of people that are even playing games. My dad was young when he was into gaming and was in that early mmo demographic and he hardly even plays games anymore.

Yes you have the kids that played mmorpgs like me back in the days and some of them might have nostalgia but the majority don't care about that or want to play a 20 year old mmorpg.

I just don't see a realistic scenario where millions of dollars is targeting a small group of nostalgia gamers. I 100% believe he is making a game that he would enjoy as a lot of things I see from the game is something I would like as well. But that includes not just systems but direction of the combat. Combat I don't view as 20 years old in the direction they have been pushing.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

I just don't see a realistic scenario where millions of dollars is targeting a small group of nostalgia gamers. I 100% believe he is making a game that he would enjoy as a lot of things I see from the game is something I would like as well. But that includes not just systems but direction of the combat. Combat I don't view as 20 years old in the direction they have been pushing.

Oh, I'm not saying they're making another TL. Just that the current overall design will clash directly with the supposedly younger-targeted combat. Even if they succeed in making a combat that appeals to the action players, there'll still be open world pvp, no TPs, death penalties, contested open world dungeons, open world bosses that give BiS instead of instanced ones, party-required gameplay, very long leveling times, no flying for 99.9% of players - all of those are mainly oldschool design choices.

And it's those things that make me think that the current young gamer population won't like the game all that much. BDO is considered to have the best action combat out there, but how big is the game? A few hundred thousand, if that? I'd attribute that to their overall korean-leaning design, which usually clashes with the western preferences. And even then, if I understood some comments from Azherae correctly, they've gone a bit closer to the western design direction in the last few years.

Which is why I'm saying that even if Ashes does have super cool combat (I personally doubt it) - the game will still not be all that popular with the audience you're seemingly talking about.

BaSkA_9x2

If one has any hopes for a game made by NCSOFT they're either gullible, young or just stupid.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I just don't see a realistic scenario where millions of dollars is targeting a small group of nostalgia gamers. I 100% believe he is making a game that he would enjoy as a lot of things I see from the game is something I would like as well. But that includes not just systems but direction of the combat. Combat I don't view as 20 years old in the direction they have been pushing.

Oh, I'm not saying they're making another TL. Just that the current overall design will clash directly with the supposedly younger-targeted combat. Even if they succeed in making a combat that appeals to the action players, there'll still be open world pvp, no TPs, death penalties, contested open world dungeons, open world bosses that give BiS instead of instanced ones, party-required gameplay, very long leveling times, no flying for 99.9% of players - all of those are mainly oldschool design choices.

And it's those things that make me think that the current young gamer population won't like the game all that much. BDO is considered to have the best action combat out there, but how big is the game? A few hundred thousand, if that? I'd attribute that to their overall korean-leaning design, which usually clashes with the western preferences. And even then, if I understood some comments from Azherae correctly, they've gone a bit closer to the western design direction in the last few years.

Which is why I'm saying that even if Ashes does have super cool combat (I personally doubt it) - the game will still not be all that popular with the audience you're seemingly talking about.

"Open world PvP, no Tps, death penalties, contest world dungeons" doens't have anything to do with younger or older generation. Plenty of people enjoy pvp, if the game is good and fun people will play it.

The issue is some people might view it as more niche depending on the level of PvP causing people younger and older to not play it. There are tons of people from the old school era where they just didn't like pvp or the idea of flagging anywhere as it interrupted their experience of the game. People will use this as a point to argue against pvp with all mmorpgs that are focused on pvp being all dead games.

The main point you can make is the much younger crowd has not played games like these before, and it be a question is if they would like and enjoy it. I feel like they would again as long as the game is good, and still have a fun world and pve setting that doesn't feel dead and boring. This being something IS is working on and why i have different vibes with this game than others.

To the bdo part my question to counter would be what other PvP focused mmorpg out there has more numbers than BDO?

Though to the main part about being being raised up in this, is it is never a good example to bring up BDO because of the many issues the game has had and created a certain perception of it that stunts its growth atm. I feel bdo works against your point though of a younger crown not being into a open world pvp game with full flagging, no teleport, etc since this game does fit the bill for those in the many years, with its player count being consistent.

BDO combat feel is amazing there it has a few certain weak points that reduce what they could do with it. What developers need to take away from BDO as I've said before with combat is how fluid it feels and the great animations.

Combat alone doens't make a mmorpg, BDO again suffered from a lot of early issues and overall design on all fronts. If BDO was reworked that could most likely be a top game int he world mmorpg wise. But it take awhile for me to go over all the issues on how to improve it. But long story short lack of mmorpg type of content is a reason why that game cant grow.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

The main point you can make is the much younger crowd has not played games like these before, and it be a question is if they would like and enjoy it. I feel like they would again as long as the game is good, and still have a fun world and pve setting that doesn't feel dead and boring. This being something IS is working on and why i have different vibes with this game than others.

Yep, this was pretty much what I was talking about. We'll just have to see how it pans out in AoC's case.

Mag7spy wrote: »

To the bdo part my question to counter would be what other PvP focused mmorpg out there has more numbers than BDO?

It's more of a "what other pvp game is even out there". I feel like BDO has cornered the pvp mmo niche right now, due to it pulling in both the pvpers and the action combat people.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Though to the main part about being being raised up in this, is it is never a good example to bring up BDO because of the many issues the game has had and created a certain perception of it that stunts its growth atm. I feel bdo works against your point though of a younger crown not being into a open world pvp game with full flagging, no teleport, etc since this game does fit the bill for those in the many years, with its player count being consistent.

I'd imagine that sunk cost fallacy plays a big role in that consistency. How many new players does BDO get in a month? Is there even a way to know that? Cause considering its design, I'd assume that majority of its current players are veterans that have invested a shitton of time and money into the game and don't just want to leave (the WoW effect pretty much).

The "combat is amazing" thing definitely plays into BDO's hand, because any newcomer to the genre will probably at least try the game out cause they'd hear about it as soon as they ask "what's a game with good combat". The retention is the big question here. And it'll be an even bigger question when it comes to Ashes.

In other words, I'm somewhat pessimistic towards the game's prospects right now. And I feel like it'll probably only get worse from here. Either through Intrepid changing their core design or by people seeing that Ashes is a niche within a niche game that doesn't appeal to them. I'd definitely be happy to get proven wrong though.

Azherae

Note that BDO makes more money in the west than in Korea or Asia as a whole.

The reasons are many, but impossible to explain without 'insulting' someone.

Extrapolating some of those reasons would at least imply Ashes will have a similar success flow towards those player types.

This is relevant to the thread only because TL is not trying to compete with BDO in any market, at all, based on their design. They would compete with Ashes more if Ashes' combat had a specific flow, and take an entirely different niche if the combat used one of the other three main flows.

As for new users, BDO gets some new users who have no intention of playing competitively, because it is basically the prettiest 'lifeskilling' game available until ArcheAge 2 appears.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Note that BDO makes more money in the west than in Korea or Asia as a whole.

Yeah, I imagined as much, considering that other KR companies are not copying BDO and instead copy the NCsoft model or maybe LA.

Azherae wrote: »

Extrapolating some of those reasons would at least imply Ashes will have a similar success flow towards those player types.

Would that then mean that, if Ashes manages to make their combat as good as they can, they'll compete with BDO? Can they even compete against the sunk cost of all those players, with both games requiring big time investments (BDO does, right?)?

Azherae wrote: »

As for new users, BDO gets some new users who have no intention of playing competitively, because it is basically the prettiest 'lifeskilling' game available until ArcheAge 2 appears.

This can definitely be the saving grace for Ashes as well and seems to be the route that quite a few western mmos are trying to take. Make a pretty and cool world to live in and let the people do random stuff in it. If Ashes somehow manages to come out before the majority of newly announced mmos do (that is if they are even real), I think they'll manage to grab a good piece of the playerbase pie.

AA2 will definitely be the biggest competitor there, if the games come out within months of each other. I'd assume that it won't be a competitor if AA comes out way before Ashes, because it'll ruin itself soon enough and leave the people wanting a similar experience.

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