Consequences of socially objectionable behavior

In the recent live stream the question was asked "Will we be able to kick a player from a group just before downing the boss to prevent them from getting loot?" and we were told yes, but the offender would risk reputational damage.

If the risk in being a ninja looter, or guild bank thief, or doing anything socially objectionable, is damage to a player's reputation on the server, then players should NEVER have access to name change, or server transfer as those allow a player to avoid the consequences of their socially objectionable actions, while likely maintaining their ill gotten gains.

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Ludullu

Yes

Depraved

IS said there wont be server transfers.

regarding name changes, you can still have them, as long as the player has a unique identifier associated with his character or account. you can still identify the thief by the unique account/character id.

Nuub

Depraved wrote: »

as long as the player has a unique identifier associated with his character or account.

That's a great point, each account should have a unique identifier, that prevents someone from using alt or name change to obscure their identity.

Kilion

10'000 players is a lot. I'd love to have a feature in the journal that allows me to "make notes" on players. You click them in the world and much like an "add to friends list" you could "add to reputation list". There you have one set slider "general reputation" and a bunch of sliders where you can add whatever you want (like crafting, dungeons, friendliness) and a small window to make a text note about the player. These could be stored as files in the journal.

If Intrepid is not surveilling/punishing such behavior it means player will find some solution to the problem, e.g. external files on players, on player made websites or simply refusing to cooperate with anyone they do not know. They could at least help us keep track of those who act antisocial; though I suspect that leaving this to players alone means we will eventually see mass slander occur independent of whether the accusations are true or not.

(Edit: Spelling)

Solvryn

Name changes won’t be a thing.

Laetitian

Kilion wrote: »

10'000 players is a lot. I'd love to have a feature in the journal that allows me to "make notes" on players. You click them in the real world and much like an "add to friends list" you could "add to reputation list". There you have one set slider "general reputation" and a bunch of sliders where you can add whatever you want (like crafting, dungeons, friendliness) and a small window to make a text note about the player. These could be stored as files in the journal.

Yeah, just one contact list where all friends & other unilaterally added contacts go and can get filtered into a few categories. No need for multiple social menus. I really liked the layout in my main MMO where party screen, contact list, and clan information were just a single window with 3 tabs. (Perhaps make it possible to drag them apart if you want to reference your contact list while doing something in your clan window. Major clan administration would be taken with NPC menus anyways, so you don't need an infinite amount of buttons in the personal menu.) So much more compact than the bloated systems in most games. Especially since they all copy the party list in the hud overlay anyway.

Regarding people you can't trust, I'm not worried. Most players know to build trust gradually. If you spend 30 minutes on a dungeon with random players and you lose a low chance on a rare piece of gear because they kick you, that's not particularly surprising, and a cheap price for a lesson about a person. If you spend 2 hours with them and then they kick you (and assuming you made your conditions for joining the party clear from the start) you should probably find a more reliable source of teammates in the first place, rather than just wanting to check them in a community database.

Wandering Mist

Laetitian wrote: »

Kilion wrote: »

10'000 players is a lot. I'd love to have a feature in the journal that allows me to "make notes" on players. You click them in the real world and much like an "add to friends list" you could "add to reputation list". There you have one set slider "general reputation" and a bunch of sliders where you can add whatever you want (like crafting, dungeons, friendliness) and a small window to make a text note about the player. These could be stored as files in the journal.

Yeah, just one contact list where all friends & other unilaterally added contacts go and can filtered into a few categories. No need for multiple social menus. I really liked the layout in my main MMO where party screen, contact list, and clan information were just a single window with 3 tabs. (Perhaps make it possible to drag them apart if you want to reference your contact list while doing something in your clan window. Major clan administration would be taken with NPC menus anyways, so you don't nerd an infinite amount of buttons in the personal menu.) So much more compact than the bloated systems in most games. Especially since they all copy the party list in the hud overlay anyway.

This kind of thing is something I wish modern games did more. There have been huge advances in productivity apps that are used on a daily basis, and yet most online games use very outdated systems for keeping track of contacts and other such matters. A fully functional modern contact list and journal built into the game would make a huge difference for people (like myself) who like to keep things organised.

tautau

Make those lists sharable, too. Share with individuals, share with groups (such as your guild or other node citizens).

Jhoren

Yes to OP and to the add a note and organizational suggestions.

Liniker

no name changes.

Laetitian

tautau wrote: »

Make those lists sharable, too. Share with individuals, share with groups (such as your guild or other node citizens).

The problem with that is that you're then directly on the way to playing Eve instead of a Fantasy MMO. I think there's merit to having to do and look up some things yourself before you make a decision. Share the list? Sure, for viewing access. Don't automate the colour a name gets shown in because your guild leader tagged it that way. Make your guild leader have to talk to people, and make people figure out who to trust and who to steer clear from.

Call it slippery slope fallacy, but in my experience, automation of communication and information exchanges like this effectively primes a community to automate LookingForGroup tools for itself, and the overland map just turns into a lobby where no one interacts through proximity, no matter how few instances your game has.

Heljy

Why not make the reputation diegetic? For example by giving players or nodes, the possibility to create "Books of Grudges" or whatever, in order to easily tell players in a node that this or that player has committed this or that mischief?

Nuub

I used an addon in WoW that let me make a note about a player, and then would show the note (up to x char) in the tool tip, and keep a list of noted players to view full comments. I loved it, it was useful in many ways for remembering who people are and I would really appreciate a similar feature in AoC.

bloodprophet

Depraved wrote: »

IS said there wont be server transfers.

regarding name changes, you can still have them, as long as the player has a unique identifier associated with his character or account. you can still identify the thief by the unique account/character id.

Name changes should be doable only IF a server merge is necessary. Names should be permanent.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Name_reservations

Character names

Characters will have a first-name and an optional surname (last name).[10]

Character names are unique per server.[11]
Character name changes will be possible during server merges.[11]

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Alts

Guild membership and alts

A character may only be a member of a single guild.[13]

Alts on the same account can join different guilds.[13]
Intrigue, espionage and intelligence gathering is a legitimate aspect of the game.[13]

BaSkA_9x2

I only really have one problem with this decision of allowing this type of loot ninjas (kick before loot): it'll encourage even more meta-gaming.

Your reputation will already be important in PvP scenarios, but now, since you can also be a bitch and steal loot from other people, you are encouraging each server to create it's own subreddit/discord with blacklists and things of that nature. Don't get me wrong, I used WC3 Banlist a lot back in the day and it was amazing, people would often ask me to share my banlist with them, however I wish I didn't have to play a game that forces you to have yet another Banlist.

Ludullu

BaSkA_9x2 wrote: »

I only really have one problem with this decision of allowing loot ninjas: it'll encourage even more meta-gaming.

Your reputation will already be important in PvP scenarios, but now, since you can also be a bitch and steal loot from other people, you are encouraging each server to create it's own subreddit/discord with blacklists and things of that nature. Don't get me wrong, I used WC3 Banlist a lot back in the day and it was amazing, people would often ask me to share my banlist with them, however I wish I didn't have to play a game that forces you to have yet another Banlist.

We should just have a list of shame (node and server wide). And players have a button on their UI (in the targeted player nameplate) that just runs their name against that list. EZ

In other words, CHINESE SOCIAL CREDIT

Fantmx

Risk vs Reward

akabear

By virtue of the statement.. to have socially objectionable behavior would be to go against the socially acceptable boundaries.

The community or more likely larger guilds and hopefully nodes likely establish a range of standards not dissimilar to each other but maybe some range and hopefully by means of regular though social interaction, joining / expelling and rejecting involvement with a little pk for good measure!

Only when there are absolute extremes and outright objectional behavior should the admin step in.

Depraved

problem with the list is i could just add people to that list because I don't like them, just to ruin their reputation. #metoo type of shit lol.

in 20 years of mmorpg, I think I've only been kicked off of a party once so that I couldn't loot. and I've probs only done it 2-3 times to people who had scammed or done bad things to a friend or a guildie. id dare to say 99% of people wont kick or be kicked before looting.

also, do the bosses with guildies or friends duh xD

Kilion

Depraved wrote: »

problem with the list is i could just add people to that list because I don't like them, just to ruin their reputation.

Especially the first part sounds right to me, seeing how we will interact with overly sensitive teens and cozy solo lobby players. Which is why I would only support a personal journal to keep track of ones own experiences, rather than make these lists sharable. And for the same reason I suggested that you have to directly SEE the person standing in front of you to add them to the reputation files of your journal. Otherwise I fully agree people would just put others on black lists and share those to slander them.

Depraved wrote: »

in 20 years of mmorpg, I think I've only been kicked off of a party once so that I couldn't loot. and I've probs only done it 2-3 times to people who had scammed or done bad things to a friend or a guildie. id dare to say 99% of people wont kick or be kicked before looting.

And even if it were more than that - it seems like a worthwhile effort to adjust the software to check for actual participation in the fight rather than just group association upon opening the loot window.

I'm no software developer but I imagine the process to be something like this:

Upon entering the fight: Add players in same group to a list.
Check and tick box for participation in the fight based on archetype (since Intrepid already has a screening feature to spot bots it should be possible to extract data from that which confirms participation)
Upon opening the loot window anyone on the open-fight list and who ticked the box for participation will be presented with the options earned through looting rights irrespective of whether they are still in the group or not, whether they are dead or not, irrespective of where they are.

This would also lock leeches out from getting loot they did not work for to earn.

Or make it a public vote to kick someone off the group.
Or make such behavior reportable so that at least the one kicking will receive an ingame punishment - making them corrupt or lowering their reputation with the victims allies.

There are tons of options what could be done and I think what will ultimately be the line of action for Intrepid so that players can figure out how to deal with it themselves. And I think if that is what is going to happen taking responsibility like that can only be encouraged.

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