Will there be philosophy or philosophical/moral thoughts in AoC?

I am not referring to the fact of " the philosophy of the "OLD MMORGS" or similar but rather to something purely philosophical /moral.

Will there be thoughts, things, parts, contents that generate/contain/produce philosophical thoughts in the players?

For example:
-Let's say I in AoC follow the religion "M" but within a content in the end-game in order to keep improving as a player I need to betray that religion by stealing/killing/destroying someone or something important of that religion.
-Let's say my character has grown up with a KAI philosophical thought, at some point in my character's growth I have to choose if I should betray or follow that thought and depending on that decision my character's growth will have several paths with things for or against.
-Let's say I follow the philosophical current of my clan/node, in order to grow as a character or become more powerful AoC gives me the option to betray my clan to my companions and people with whom I grew up in a thought together.

It would be very but very interesting that a MMORPG plays with the morality/philosophy that the players will have since that could generate a lot of content and it would be at the same time something very new that if it is carried in a good way could give more weight to the religions, sociability, politics and contents that are related to the coexistence of a community.

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Kilion

I think if you look into the lore regarding the Others and the Ancients you will already find a bunch of things that raise philosophic questions. The Ancients where made by all 10 deities but then exiled for their curiosity to learn more about the manipulation of Essence (even if it meant learning how to twist it as knowledge is neutral to begin with), alongside the Others who were willing to teach them. In that situation you can already ponder who is "at fault" or the "real bad guys" and whether not killing them but only banishing them was more cruelty than mercy.

And I think we will find more plot points like this, be it about the past of the world but also when progressing through a story arch where you will not always be presented with choices of helping "good" or "evil" but simply different factions competing over a limited resource both will be putting to good use.

unknownsystemerror

Kickstarter unlocked expanded naval content. So prepare for as much in depth navel gazing as you can ponder.

Caww

Philosophically, I believe the narrative will be "Kill'em all and let God sort'em out"

Heljy

If this game makes me feel as bad as the day I killed Sif (DS1), I will scream at the masterpiece.

More seriously, I totally approve of the consideration of moral and ethical issues in the naration, even the evolution of the character. I’ve always found the concept of being a legendary hero by committing genocide on a daily basis very funny but dissonant.

What means now?
- Multiple choices in the narrative of quests and events?
- Special skill trees linked to an alignment (such as fable), or even cosmetic personalizations of characters unique to these alignments?
- Reputation game with factions (if any)?

Ace1234

Sounds like this might sum up the kind of gameplay you are describing, I made a similar recommmendation on this topic in a past dev discussion

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6RHH7M4siPM&pp=ygUeZ210ayBtb3JhbGl0eSBpbiB0aGUgbWVjaGFuaWNz

Fantmx

There will definitely be that capability for role-players. I doubt many will go that route though. One thing I have asked about and so far I think the answer is no, is whether we could worship the Others or whether we could disrupt another religion. That fits in to the narrative here.

Vaknar

Intriguing thought-starter.

Curious, when playing single-player games, do you feel guilty when killing innocent NPCs, whether by accident or on purpose?

I do 🥺 ... usually 😈

Nerror

I have been replaying the mass effect trilogy, and Bioware really did add some philosophical, ethical and moral choices in the game. The genophage and what to do with the Geth come to mind.

Since Ashes isn't singleplayer, I hope Intrepid sticks to the more personal moral and philosophical choices, rather than trying to add quests that affect a whole species, but the principle is the same. I'll be really happy if quest choices aren't just black and white or good and evil, and taps into those moral and philosophical dilemmas, with roughly even pros and cons for each.

Heljy

Vaknar wrote: »

Intriguing thought-starter.

Curious, when playing single-player games, do you feel guilty when killing innocent NPCs, whether by accident or on purpose?

I do 🥺 ... usually 😈

The controller never fell out of my hands. On the other hand, I often said to myself: "I don’t want to have to choose", or "I don’t want to do that". It’s a bit frustrating obviously, but it’s nothing compared to the awesome feeling that the game puts me in front of my contradictions, there we touch the role of art in my opinion, we go beyond entertainment.

For example the quote Sif from Dark Souls 1 earlier, where I looked for all the ways not to kill him before I solved it, it’s a great memory and it’s there that From Software typed very just with this game.

So if in an MMo I came to feel this kind of thing, I would be satisfied!

MybroViajero

Vaknar wrote: »

Intriguing thought-starter.

Curious, when playing single-player games, do you feel guilty when killing innocent NPCs, whether by accident or on purpose?

I do 🥺 ... usually 😈

More than feeling guilty for killing someone innocent I would like the idea to be taken as a potential content generator for good/bad things or things that people like and others do not.

For example in civilizacion there is that kind of content not on such an impressive or showy scale but there is.
You can choose options of how to interact with your opponents , you can choose to be seen as a friendly person but at any time you can betray your allies ( that would cause negative consequences for you ) .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiSPquq0RfI
So why don't we extrapolate these ideas to other content ?
Let's say my character is leveling a skill/thing/freehold , to ensure the growth of those things I need a material that is only created if I am of religion M , BUT THAT RELIGION ONLY USES THAT MATERIAL IN A WAY THAT I CANNOT BENEFIT FROM IT FOR WHAT I WANT , then there comes the dilemma, I enter that religion pretending that I agree with its terms but then I betray them in order to ensure the growth of the things I need but as a consequence I get into a lot of trouble for having betrayed them? What happens if that religion gave me a lot of benefits, is it profitable to betray them?

That I think is one of the many potential content that could have to generate dilemmas of choice for the player and those dilemmas of choice can be linked to the morality/philosophy that a culture/nation/thought in the game has.

So, I would understand if many said "but those things occur normally in a game that gives you the option to Pk another player" or "those things are only for single player focused games", I understand but really that's it. TRUE ? Has that been tried in massive games to say that it really can't be done?
Of course, you have to understand that there are things that really cannot be done in games with a large number of players, but what if that thing has a lot of potential to generate very interesting content that causes a potential to generate sociability, wouldn't it be interesting to give it a chance?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S00lI8_m0u8
I've always thought that WOW had such incredible potential to generate those things in their content but they never tried to do anything with it, they only used it in CINEMATICS and LORE, for example in BFA.
BFA had so much potential to be an amazing expansion, they were able to really exploit the external/internal conflicts that the two factions had, the use of Saufang's morale, the Silvanas betrayal, the burning of teldrassil were only used as cinematics and not true manager to create "CONFLICTING" content that had been promised would be BFA.

So yes, I definitely believe that the decisions that generate these moral dilemmas are something to take into account in a video game that has a lot of social potential.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0lUK4OPqug&t=2s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RHH7M4siPM
Those decisions that can mark a before and after, those decisions that will leave you wondering if you did the right thing or not, that is what makes the difference.

Ace1234

I think Planescape Torment, and Disco Elysium would also be great inspiration for a more philisophcal design approach, in addition to the moral expression type of gameplay outlined in the video I linked above.

SunScript

I find that run of the mill moral questions like "will you choose to act like an out of control sociopath or selflessly help others?" or "betray or follow your initial school/religion/whatever?" don't do anything for me. I've already moved on so it doesn't seem to tingle me in some special place like it seems to for others.

Rather than moral questions of that kind, what I do enjoy however is an exploration of less binary philosophical concepts about how to live one's life. Lessons to live by, mindsets you can adopt for yourself, etc. FFXI for example has the habit of giving you little insights into how to think in a way which suits the class you just unlocked, lore wise.

With the risk of spoiling some stuff, here's 2 examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN3EgmReXfo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIdVVvaujcc

If you can get any reflexive cringe out of the way at the idea of applying those, I am certain that both are mindsets one can learn to live by, whether in games or real life. And I like that.

tautau

To respond to @Vaknar 's question, there is no twinge when killing a NPC or mob since those are nothing but pixels and code, not a living creature.

It is totally different with player characters since behind every toon is a living human, a human who can feel pain as a result of your actions.

Some people like to cause pain so they verbally harass other players or involuntarily PK them. They justify their actions to themselves by using weak excuses such as 'It is just a game' or 'we are allowed to do this' or 'they are a newb/Tulnar/female or whatever'.

Other players, sadly, lack the development to even realize that there are moral issues related to their personal actions (in game or out).

So, the moral issue is not the treatment of non-player characters. It is the treatment of player characters.

Please note that my PK comment above relates to non-consensual PVP. If a player consents to fight, the moral dilemma disappears.

akabear

Yes, there will philosophy or philosophical/moral and political decisions in AoC otherwise known as the social decisions and interactions between the various players, guilds and node communities of control of land, bosses, gatherables, xp areas and general status!

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