Off-topic Discussions from 'we have a new lead game designer bill trost'

This discussion was created from comments split from: We have a new Lead Game Designer: Bill Trost.

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Noaani wrote: »

Trost coming on board is probably the best news anyone wanting Ashes to be more than just another pure PvP MMO like L2, Archeage, BDO or Albion could have hoped for (and yes, as far as MMO's go, those games are pure PvP).

He is quite literally the guy that made the MMO genre what it is - or what it was. He designed the original EQ - the game Blizzard developers saw and said to themselves "we should have a go at making one of these". A game that is getting close to being live for a quarter of a century.

My hope is that Bill can keep Ashes PvP in tact as it is now (he wont be able to change that), but add to it the PvE meat that the game needs.

You have guilds in Albion that never touched PVP the Trade Cartels barely do pvp just focus in crafting , economy and gathering if they need to do pvp probably they pay to other guilds because they are swimming in Silver , and you have other guilds just focused on the pve (ava raids) , yes they have the same risk the others but they adapt ... BDO then is an joke, you barely do any pvp there, the game is 98% pve grind with 2% of fighting with one guy for an grinding spot .

Liniker

Noaani wrote: »

« that doesn't alter my point that the game needs to move more towards it's PvE content than it is now«

for this I'm simply going to reply with:

and I will leave it at that.

KaelinTV

Noaani wrote: »

Kilion wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

[...]
Keep in mind, when I am talking about PvE, I am not talking about harvesting and crafting and such (the activities likely required to maintain a castle), I am talking about shit to kill. [...]

Suffice to say - the game needs a massive focus on PvE from what it has now. It doesn't need any changes to the PvP systems in place, however.

I am afraid I'm still unsure what you think Ashes is lacking in regards to PvE. What does this "more", this additional focus look like? Or do you mean that they should show more of what the PvE-side of the game has to offer?

In order tp attract a player that is primarily PvE focused to Ashes from another game, Ashes needs to offer a better PvE experience.

One of the key things (note - not the only thing) to this regard is guaranteed access to content - something Ashes currently has literally zero of right now.

Now, I am not suggesting any ways to achieve this - not in this thread at least. However, if a guild with the above PvE focus can play a game where they can have their pick of taking on any one of 15 relevant encounters on a given night, or a game where they may have a chance at fighting off others enough in order to be able to have a go at one encounter on any given night, which game do you think that guild will play?

Fact is, Ashes needs to actually go a little beyond other games in regards to PvE in order to attract these guilds - and so far it is sitting at having literally nothing.

You couldn't be any more wrong, and I state that with no offense meant.

Ashes is aiming for something that the majority of the current MMORPG population hasn't experienced for over a decade. Being a Lineage 2 player myself, and keeping note of Steven''s big MMO inspirations, it's clear the direction and path he wants to take the game in. A game based around contested content and guild/alliance/party cooperation. I experienced this system in Lineage 2 and it was by far the best experience I've ever had in any MMO I've played, and that list is rather long. Being originally a more solo minded player, it broadened my horizons to a very large degree...As my fondest MMORPG memories come from the nights grinding with the friends I made in L2, the comradery in contested content, crafting, and assisting fellow guildies with their crafts and skill book acquisitions as we progressed together.

No game has every come close to deliver the experience that L2 gave, as the genre took a hard turn toward quick gratification with nearly instant dungeon queues, instances, solo tailored content, and group content being solely instanced boss encounters...Whereas in L2, our alliance had to fight or fend off other alliances for the unique loot from world bosses. It led to countless wars, fights in leveling/grinding grounds, and many nostalgic battles. Now just because I talk mostly of the contested content, this doesn't mean that the game was entirely PvP...If you weren't part of a big guild, you were most likely left alone the majority of the time, but it would mean you rule yourself out from the big epic bosses. Smaller guilds who weren't PvP focused would shift towards PvE grinding, crafting, economy, and comradery as the game was a huge grind.

L2 lasted for nearly 10 years as a sub model...The game had barely anything in terms of systems. Just an EXTREMELY long grind, flagging system, Karma (corruption) system, non-faction guild/alliance system, crafting, with a complete lack of any depth in quests...Yet it lasted this long and was cherished by many players. If a game with literally nothing in terms of systems could be this nostalgic to so many and last that long under a sub model, I'm excited to see what Ashes can improve upon that formula with it's plethora of systems, and the genre evolving node system. It's honestly set up for a grand experience if they can nail the combat which is the only weakness atm imo.

Overall though, don't knock it till you try it. Too many players are focused in the ways of WoW, FF14, and so forth in the form of instanced boss encounters. It's not a bad thing to try something different and see if it can change your perspective...

Considering how the majority of AAA MMORPG titles lately are failing so quickly after launch, or embracing pure p2w mechanics, it's time for a shift in ideology. If you really need the guild raid nights, sad to say this game will most likely not be for you, as it goes completely against that mentality and style of play. For example the cyclops dev update we just had, you would have to picture those type of encounters with the focus of keeping an eye around your surroundings for guilds looking to contest, while clearing the boss at the same time. The largest world bosses being massive alliances of 100+ players on each side, spoils to the victor, while they split into two fronts for defending and fighting said boss. The content will not be designed around complex PvE instanced content, leaving players waiting eagerly for the next expansion with not much to do in the meantime. Instead, the players themselves are the form of content generation thanks to the non--faction guild/alliance system...with the wars, castle sieges, and contested conflicts that arrive to fuel and shape the landscape of each individual server. The systems, crafting, raid bosses, sieges, literally everything is designed around grouping up with fellow players and having you band together. You literally could not solo in L2, if you did, it would put you very far behind, all classes were needed...Support, DPS, Healing, Tanks, etc. It's refreshing to see a game heading back in design direction to a more player cooperation approach. Even in a game that entwines PvE and PvP to this extent such as ashes, there is still plenty to satiate the PvE minded though... The economy, life skills, religion, crafting, etc...If L2 was able to do it with nothing in systems, then ashes will smash this part out of the park considering the depth we've seen.

Now there will be instanced content, but I'm guessing it will most likely be story progression. As I really don't see the reward of complicated instanced content if crafted and world boss loot will be the king of gear. Leaves very little incentive in rewards for complex instanced boss battles...But time will tell as more information is given to us and showcased by Steven and his team.

In terms of appealing to PvE players, I don't think it will be really needed. Everyone is looking for a new MMO to play, also with Alpha 2 being persistent, I believe the mass portion of players will be exposed to the game enough to make a clear assumption if they want to play it or not. The game will definitely improve as time goes on and more is added...I just hope people don't solidify their opinion and keep an open mind as the game truly is in development unlike regionalized alpha's we've seen from other MMO's.

To wrap up this long post, there is something severely lacking in the current landscape. The failed design ideology of current MMORPG's hasn't helped the genre, it has stagnated it. Would be a disservice to follow the same design directive that has led us into this hole. As a result, Ashes is aiming to bring something the current MMORPG gamer has been deprived of for so long.

Noaani

KaelinTV wrote: »

L2 lasted for nearly 10 years as a sub

Indeed - due to its Korean playerbase.

The NA servers barely paid for themselves. The same was true for Archeage (though notibly not BDO). The games Korean market is what keeps them alive - does anyone actually and honestly think the way Trions Archeage went would warrant a licensed sequel (the game is a licensed IP, after all).

This is because that model of gaming is designed around people playing the game in a cafe with friends, rather than at home by themselves, but with in game friends as Western players play MMO's. Playing a game in this manner alters what you will and will not accept.

Trying to create a Korean MMO and expecting it to survive on a playerbase that consumes MMO's in a totally different manner is not sound business.

Mag7spy

Its not really about appealing to PvE player, its about having that type of content. Sometimes more pvp focused content can make pve feel like there is a lack of content or no content (this has felt like the case with BDO).

Ashes is differently going to have good pvp content i feel will be more meaningful than other games. If they have good meaningful pve content it can be the difference between a good mmorpg and god tier one. Since there is more content that is fun and challenge for players to do and contest over.

Pretty much all other mmorpgs that were more focused on PvP have a lack of actual good pve content and design to create it. Something which i hope is different with AoC as a pvp player. Helps build a more interesting world.

That being said my own indications with AoC seems to be they are having really cool pve content and that is their goal with the more we see every month. The storyline stuff that changes dungeons being one example I find very cool and around the bubble of PvE.

System

This discussion was created from comments split from: We have a new Lead Game Designer: Bill Trost.

Vaknar

Moved some off-topic discussions from another thread. Feel free to carry on here, but let's remember to be polite and respectful

Noaani

Vaknar wrote: »

Moved some off-topic discussions from another thread. Feel free to carry on here, but let's remember to be polite and respectful

Cool, I am happy to address this post now.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Well short form besides instanced content what would you want for more pve?

@Mag7spy

Instanced content is indeed one form of content that would satisfy the points I was making. However, if instanced content were added to Ashes for the sake of the content, as opposed to for the sake of the world/lore etc, then it would need to come with an increased PvP risk of some form.

One suggestion I have made in the past is that the better rewards for killing an instanced boss need to be transported from the location of the instance to the nearest metropolis (a metropolis nearby should be needed to unlock any raid content). Additionally, a world wide announcement of the kill would probably be in order - so as to alert everyone to the fact that you are running a caravan from that location to the metropolis. This should guarantee some PvP - and even better, it will have a totally different feel to it than just fighting over an encounter.

This isn't the only way additional PvP elements could be added to instanced PvE content, but it is one way. Additionally, instanced PvE content isn't the only way to guarantee access to content.

Another form of guaranteed content is forced spawn. Have a guild collect a given number of tokens of some form (it doesn't matter what, body parts, scroll fragments, it's all the same mechanically), and go to either a specific location, or any one of many locations and spawn an encounter. With this, the guild can control when (and potentially where) the encounter takes place.

Another way to guarantee content to people is to have so much open world content (due to both number of encounters and respawn time) that there is not going to be a shortage. I'm not advocating for this specific method, I am just stating that it exists as a method.

KaelinTV

Noaani wrote: »

KaelinTV wrote: »

L2 lasted for nearly 10 years as a sub

Indeed - due to its Korean playerbase.

The NA servers barely paid for themselves. The same was true for Archeage (though notibly not BDO). The games Korean market is what keeps them alive - does anyone actually and honestly think the way Trions Archeage went would warrant a licensed sequel (the game is a licensed IP, after all).

This is because that model of gaming is designed around people playing the game in a cafe with friends, rather than at home by themselves, but with in game friends as Western players play MMO's. Playing a game in this manner alters what you will and will not accept.

Trying to create a Korean MMO and expecting it to survive on a playerbase that consumes MMO's in a totally different manner is not sound business.

Indeed Lineage is a very successful IP in Korea. But you can't disregard the NA base entirely due to that. Lineage 2 came out in the same year was World of Warcraft. Which would greatly diminish any player base considering the blind loyalty blizzard fans have for their releases. We unfortunately don't have the metrics of sub count as they are not public, so can't draw any conclusions if it was profitable or not, as it would be purely
speculation without that data on hand. But you can't denounce the fact that it was successful as a sub model for almost 10 years in NA...I doubt they would keep the servers up for that long if they weren't profitable.

I didn't bring up Archeage for a reason, as what truly killed it wasn't the contested content, it was just pure greed as they broke the balance and potential of the game with predatory p2w. Something that is rampant in every Korean MMORPG now-a-days...Which is truly sad to say as I believe Korean MMORPG's offer something that NA ones just do not have.

The Korean lifestyle around gaming is indeed quite different. I believe using that as an example is a false way of looking at it. I doubt the mass majority of L2 players were all holed up in lan cafes in Korea (Was mostly Warcraft and Starcraft at the time). Considering alliance wars and what not would sport 100-200 people per side, organizing in such in a noisy environment and sheer scale would take up an entire cafe, that seems farsical to state such. Yes the game would of been played in gaming cafes, but I believe that's painting a picture too vividly and based on speculation.

In essence, Ashes is borrowing a very large portion from a couple Korean MMO's, specifically more so Lineage 2. But I don't see this as a bad thing. It's an MMO that has roots tied to old school Korean risk vs reward mentality, but with a twist combining it with NA MMO roots and design philosophies. We already see a massive interest in Ashes based solely around the design and principles the game is trying to create.

In terms of your last sentence...

Noaani wrote: »

Trying to create a Korean MMO and expecting it to survive on a player base that consumes MMO's in a totally different manner is not sound business.

No offense meant once again...But this is hardly in any form a Korean MMO, to state such is disingenuous and shows your hand. This game will never be like any of the themepark MMO's that we currently have. There is already a massive amount of interest in Ashes of Creation, as we have seen it grow over it's life time. Yes it has roots that came from the inspiration and nostalgia that Steven has experienced from a couple of Korean MMO's...But that doesn't mean it's a Korean MMO in entirely. What is and has been killing MMO's has been this lax and casual style that lacks any risk vs reward delivered with every new MMO. They literally have no substance to keep players invested after completing said PvE boss content, and fail miserably, or stagnate till a new expansion. L2 had none of this, and lasted for a decade as a sub model...That says a lot for a style of game that lacked any depth in systems compared to the plethora that AoC will be giving us built upon said style.

The amount of systems that are being developed for this game is truly insane by MMO standards. With the depth they are planning in animal husbandry, social organization, religions, freeholds, naval content, crafting and artisan classes, a gathering system with actual depth and limited resources. The Node system itself is a break through in fixing the problems of MMO's of old. Overall, with the careful thought and amount of systems being developed...There will be plenty to do.

The clear fact though, is large scale instanced PvE content that is super rewarding loot wise has no place in this game. It actually is counter productive and hurts this games main point and identity immensely. Stating they need to cater to this type of audience, which it's style has led to the position we are in, is honestly the wrong path to take. We shifted gears from MMO's of old, such as L2, Everquest, and so on...Games of their type that focused around community and cooperation...Once WoW was released, and we went on this band wagon of new MMO's trying to "Be the next WoW" and emulate their systems over the years, has led to the downfall of the genre along with P2W....Just as the course altered many years ago, a course correction is need. If you want to play a PvE centric MMORPG, there are plenty around, no need to taint this game and ruin its attempt for changing the landscape and giving a different experience than players are use to. It's good thing to try something different and be adventurous. I did nearly 20 years ago in L2, and glad to see that current players might be able to experience something similar.

Noaani

KaelinTV wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

KaelinTV wrote: »

L2 lasted for nearly 10 years as a sub

Indeed - due to its Korean playerbase.

The NA servers barely paid for themselves. The same was true for Archeage (though notibly not BDO). The games Korean market is what keeps them alive - does anyone actually and honestly think the way Trions Archeage went would warrant a licensed sequel (the game is a licensed IP, after all).

This is because that model of gaming is designed around people playing the game in a cafe with friends, rather than at home by themselves, but with in game friends as Western players play MMO's. Playing a game in this manner alters what you will and will not accept.

Trying to create a Korean MMO and expecting it to survive on a playerbase that consumes MMO's in a totally different manner is not sound business.

Indeed Lineage is a very successful IP in Korea. But you can't disregard the NA base entirely due to that. Lineage 2 came out in the same year was World of Warcraft. Which would greatly diminish any player base considering the blind loyalty blizzard fans have for their releases. We unfortunately don't have the metrics of sub count as they are not public, so can't draw any conclusions if it was profitable or not, as it would be purely speculation without that data on hand. But you can't denounce the fact that it was successful as a sub model for almost 10 years in NA...I doubt they would keep the servers up for that long if they weren't profitable.

I didn't bring up Archeage for a reason, as what truly killed it wasn't the contested content, it was just pure greed as they broke the balance and potential of the game with predatory p2w. Something that is rampant in every Korean MMORPG now-a-days...Which is truly sad to say as I believe Korean MMORPG's offer something that NA ones just do not have.

The Korean lifestyle around gaming is indeed quite different. I believe using that as an example is a false way of looking at it. I doubt the mass majority of L2 players were all holed up in lan cafes in Korea (Was mostly Warcraft and Starcraft at the time). Considering alliance wars and what not would sport 100-200 people per side, organizing in such in a noisy environment and sheer scale would take up an entire cafe, that seems farsical to state such. Yes the game would of been played in gaming cafes, but I believe that's painting a picture too vividly and based on speculation.

In essence, Ashes is borrowing a very large portion from a couple Korean MMO's, specifically more so Lineage 2. But I don't see this as a bad thing. It's an MMO that has roots tied to old school Korean risk vs reward mentality, but with a twist combining it with NA MMO roots and design philosophies. We already see a massive interest in Ashes based solely around the design and principles the game is trying to create.

A few points with this.

First, back in 2004, Blizzard didn't have the fanatical fanbase that it has now. That fanbase is due to WoW, which blew up in popularity in early 2005 (Feburary and March, mostly).

However, L2 launched in 2003 in Korea. This means that the playerbase had the choice of a new game in November 2004, or a game with a years worth of polish. L2 had every advantage here, yet history tells us what way the playerbase went. The western audience saw the game and largely decided it wasnt for them.

Also, you may note that I didn't say the NA servers weren't profitable. I said they were barely paying for themselves. With the Korean market keeping the game in a somewhat state of development, running the NA servers bought in an additional few tens of thousands a year after expenses. As such, they were somewhat worth having, but they would not have been able to continue active development of the game on that.

As to Archeage, the changes they made to things like Thunderatruck Trees, and then further in to the general monetization of the game, these were all done after the game lost a massive chunk of its population. Thus loss happened 6 to 10 weeks after launch. Again, the western audience saw the game, and largely decided it wasnt for them (though I played it for 5 years or so).

By the time we got to where people were complaining about balance and such, the game had lost almost 75% of its launch day population.

In terms of your last sentence...

Noaani wrote: »

Trying to create a Korean MMO and expecting it to survive on a player base that consumes MMO's in a totally different manner is not sound business.

No offense meant once again...But this is hardly in any form a Korean MMO, to state such is disingenuous and shows your hand.

In the ways that matter, it is.

Keep in mind, you just finished saying that Ashes is borrowing heavily from L2, specifically the risk vs reward philosophies.

Now, I'm not saying those things need to change. What I am saying is that they exist, and the way Koreans consume MMO's (in cafes, with friends, even back in 2003 with L2 and earlier with the original Lineage), they are more forgiving of loss. When you are playing with tour friends, if you lose 10 PvP fights in a row, you open another beer and joke with your friends about how bad you are. It's like going bowling - you dont need to be good at it to have fun doing it with your friends.

In the west, it you lose 10 PvP fights in a row, especially in an open world game, you are logging off for the night - or potentially for good.

The other MAJOR difference between Korean and western (specifically BR and NA, but EU to a lesser extent), is the fact that there is a much higher percent of troll's outside of Korea, and those trolls are willing to go to much greater lengths. This was shown well in Archeage again, with most servers having days or weeks on end with people blocking bridges, preventing trade runs. XL ,were told about it, but refuses to believe people would spend their time in game doing that - because in their years of publishing games in Korea, they had literally never seen anything even close to it.

These differences in consumption need to be taken in to account in game design. Intrepid seem to have an idea if the troll aspect of this, but the other issue seems (from my perspective) to be completely missed by them.

KaelinTV

Noaani wrote: »

A few points with this.

First, back in 2004, Blizzard didn't have the fanatical fanbase that it has now. That fanbase is due to WoW, which blew up in popularity in early 2005 (Feburary and March, mostly).

However, L2 launched in 2003 in Korea. This means that the playerbase had the choice of a new game in November 2004, or a game with a years worth of polish. L2 had every advantage here, yet history tells us what way the playerbase went. The western audience saw the game and largely decided it wasnt for them.

Also, you may note that I didn't say the NA servers weren't profitable. I said they were barely paying for themselves. With the Korean market keeping the game in a somewhat state of development, running the NA servers bought in an additional few tens of thousands a year after expenses. As such, they were somewhat worth having, but they would not have been able to continue active development of the game on that.

As to Archeage, the changes they made to things like Thunderstruck Trees, and then further in to the general monetization of the game, these were all done after the game lost a massive chunk of its population. Thus loss happened 6 to 10 weeks after launch. Again, the western audience saw the game, and largely decided it wasnt for them (though I played it for 5 years or so).

By the time we got to where people were complaining about balance and such, the game had lost almost 75% of its launch day population.

Blizzard was huge even back in the day, Starcraft was enormous in the Korean scene, absolutely massive. The esports scene blew up in the early 2000's. It wasn't do to World of Warcraft, and to think that is truly inaccurate. The reason why World of Warcraft became so popular, is due to the massive following Blizzard has had in it's fan base, reaching all the way back to Warcraft, Starcraft, and Diablo. I would know, I was an addict to Starcraft back in the day, as well as the Warcraft titles. Diablo also being huge, but wasn't my biggest cup of tea as I'm not a fan of isometric dungeon crawlers. All this gave way to the massive success of World of Warcraft. When you have three mega IP's like this, it gives you all the advertising you need...As we've seen with all their titles after, and the backlash they honestly deserved from their newer games and failings.

In terms of L2, you are correct It came out in 2003, in Korea. The North American release was in April 2004. With World of Warcraft closed beta dates happening in March, June, and July of 2004, leading to it's quick turn around to release. This was not by coincidence, I find it funny how you say the western audience didn't find L2 was for them, as it was the complete opposite. The servers grew in population as more servers were added through the first few chronicles.

NC Interactive came into existence in 2001, and bought arena net (Guild Wars), then changed it's name shortly after into NCWest as it lead into the launch of Lineage 2 in the west of 2004. It was their first official NCSoft developed title to be published to the west. It had no where near the marketing power or exposure as Blizzard, not in the slightest...I only found out about the game from a friend who offered me his CBT key since he was planning to play World of Warcraft, and was able to enjoy the game starting from the beta phases.

I once again find it Humorous you're stating it brought in tens of thousands a year after expenses...not having any data and actual statistics to go by...That is just purely speculation with a lack of any evidence. Judging by the fact that it lead to further studio development in NCWest, increasing headcount and leading into the eventual release of Aion would prove otherwise. Let's agree to disagree. There isn't any data going back this far that is accurate, or that is public, so you can't state anything as fact when there isn't the data to back it up. Stating so is completely disingenuous and misinformation. But to say they only brought in profit in the 5 figures after expenses a year, is honestly laughable. But what I can state, is that the population of the game grew with new servers added over the first few expansions (chronicles). Once again, no offense meant if it sounds as such.

In terms of Archeage...Let's be honest here, it wasn't solely thunderstruck trees that killed the game. Archeage didn't "die" because people didn't like what the game had to offer. It died from gross negligence on Trion's side, as well as the adopted p2w models that XLGames was embracing. Receiving patch 1.2 for the NA launch was a sign of what was to come. The whole head start fiasco, labor point exploitation that was made worst along with predatory stances taken by trion in the cash shop...Apex duping destroying the economy, cash shop rng gambling with regrade, and the list goes on. The game was an utter disgrace from launch. It literally had no chance to be successful considering the P2W climate taking over, and the catastrophe that is Trion Worlds.

It had the potential to be massive...But XLGames and pretty much all Korean MMO's shifting to P2W, Trion's adopting of the cash shop patch for the western market at launch, as well as complete mishandling of the game led to it's demise...It wasn't losing players due to lack of interest in the game. It died before the game could even realize it's potential due to greed and stupid decisions. Saying player's largely decided it wasn't for them is incredibly disingenuous....Many people wanted the game in a non p2w form that was handled correctly to let it flourish...We never got that, it was never delivered, but the interest was there.

Noaani wrote: »

In the ways that matter, it is.

Keep in mind, you just finished saying that Ashes is borrowing heavily from L2, specifically the risk vs reward philosophies.

Now, I'm not saying those things need to change. What I am saying is that they exist, and the way Koreans consume MMO's (in cafes, with friends, even back in 2003 with L2 and earlier with the original Lineage), they are more forgiving of loss. When you are playing with tour friends, if you lose 10 PvP fights in a row, you open another beer and joke with your friends about how bad you are. It's like going bowling - you dont need to be good at it to have fun doing it with your friends.

In the west, it you lose 10 PvP fights in a row, especially in an open world game, you are logging off for the night - or potentially for good.

The other MAJOR difference between Korean and western (specifically BR and NA, but EU to a lesser extent), is the fact that there is a much higher percent of troll's outside of Korea, and those trolls are willing to go to much greater lengths. This was shown well in Archeage again, with most servers having days or weeks on end with people blocking bridges, preventing trade runs. XL ,were told about it, but refuses to believe people would spend their time in game doing that - because in their years of publishing games in Korea, they had literally never seen anything even close to it.

These differences in consumption need to be taken in to account in game design. Intrepid seem to have an idea if the troll aspect of this, but the other issue seems (from my perspective) to be completely missed by them.

A lot of your thoughts here are based once again on speculation. Just out of curiosity, have you lived in Korea and experienced all this first hand? Because there is a lot of assuming here, which seems to be a trend with a lot of your takes, once again, no offense, you know how the internet and tone can be taken in the wrong light. But I've been in these situations you speak of, in filled party with guildies as we constantly fight for a room in Cruma Tower...Whether we were on the side coming back to fight again after dying, or clearing those trying to take the room from us, you can flip a coin depending on the day...But it was the most memorable experiences I've ever had in an MMO. Just because players haven't experienced such a PvX system in the current times, shouldn't automatically take the stance that players won't enjoy it or are up for it...They haven't tried it yet. It was also MUCH more punishing in L2, what AoC is giving us is a much tamer and watered down variant of the harsh penalties that L2 brought upon you, so if you are worried about it being too hardcore, fear not, it won't be based on Steven's design direction...You need to give the player base some leeway and credit, and stop assuming that players will hate it.

Judging by the fact that Lineage 2 was successful in the west for a long life span, and that Archeage had over 2 million registered users at launch for the west, shows that this style of system has interest...Lineage 2 was not very well known, but those that did get to enjoy it find themselves lucky to play such a gem, Steven included, considering many of his systems tie around L2's. Archeage had the chance of following up on that trend with a very large amount of interested players, especially having the original creator of Lineage at the helm was a huge boon, but collapsed due to negligence and P2W infesting the game...These two facts prove there is a market, that is just untapped, and assuming Ashes needs to about face and cater to the Themepark style of PvE is a huge misread.

I will not denounce that people troll in the west, I can not speak for Korea, but in the west I can attest to this many times over in the games I've played and agree with you...It's rather annoying actually at how childish players can be. But why would you even bring this point up? We literally have a developer that has experienced all of this and came from the west. Do you honestly believe Steven has not thought about appropriate actions and design choices to combat these issues?

For example, Steven has already shown he understands the flaws in L2's Karma system with his corruption system, applying appropriate counter measures to reign in excessive pk'ing, eliminating the possibility of PK alts entirely, and so on. Every time I hear his responses to possible exploitation or problems that arise in MMORPG's he's played, and plans he has in place, he's shown an impressive amount of understanding and realization of the problems at hand that need to be addressed.

There are not many players who have been able to experience an untainted version of what the PvX system that Steven is embracing has to offer, except old school L2 players. We are definitely in the minority. But for all the fires I see being started, or sounding the alarm considering the game doesn't have Themepark like PvE boss instances with legendary loots is just a bad take imo.

Now is there a possibility that problems would arise that have not been accounted for? Absolutely...But do you honestly think that Steven would not quickly and decisively patch said issues? Here's a man who is a player like us, who has spent a fortune of his own money building up this game from scratch...No massive corporation overlords, or shareholders to be beholden to...The game will live or die by the choices he makes, and his wallet along with it. I find it incredulous that he would not fix any broken elements that arise...But in terms of design direction, that will not change, he's stated it before, he's seen it work as I have, and Archeage's initial registered player base prove there's a market for such a game...as long as it's handled properly, and greed is kept out of the equation, I believe the game will flourish and bring a breath of fresh air to the genre.

/end wall of text...apologies...haha *drinks beer*

Mag7spy

@Noaani I can get behind summoned bosses. Also had an idea while back based on the higher barrier to entry to the content the least likely you have to deal with as much pvp. Though I'd have to find the post again il do that later though.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

@Noaani I can get behind summoned bosses. Also had an idea while back based on the higher barrier to entry to the content the least likely you have to deal with as much pvp. Though I'd have to find the post again il do that later though.

I could potentially get behind an idea like this, though my initial instinct is for all content to have the same "amount" of PvP in total - if you remove it from one area you simply add it to another area.

I guess an argument could be made that in achieving that higher barrier to entry for some content, you will have had to have completed a good amount of PvP.

In regards to summoned encounters, my actual preference is for a game like Ashes to have many different types of encounters. Some instanced (assuming PvP is added back in some way), some summoned, some cage fights (as per another thread), some pure open world fights that are to be fought over. As long as there is a philosophy whereby people can't use content to escape PvP, literally all of them would fit just fine in to the concept of Ashes.

The more varied the content available, the better - at least initially. If it is found that one type of encounter is greatly favored they can make more, or if one is disliked as a concept they can simply not make any more.

Noaani

KaelinTV wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

First, back in 2004, Blizzard didn't have the fanatical fanbase that it has now.

Blizzard was huge even back in the day, Starcraft was enormous in the Korean scene, absolutely massive.

You'll note that I said the Blizzard fan base wasn't fanatical, not that it wasn't large. The Blizzard fanbase back then wouldn't simply buy every Blizzard game like they do now or did a few years ago).

leading into the eventual release of Aion would prove otherwise.

While L2 did indeed fund much of Aions development, it wasn't with the proceeds from the NA servers. You can agree to disagree if you want, but the information is out there if you look (I went from not knowing a lot about L2 to knowing a reasonable amount about the behind the scenes over the last 3 or so years - there are people happy to talk about it).

In terms of Archeage...Let's be honest here, it wasn't solely thunderstruck trees that killed the game.

I specifically said that it wasn't Thunderstruck trees that killed it - the server population had already dropped off dramatically by that point. By the time Trion made that change, they had come to the realization that the games population would never be very high, and so started monetizing it as much as they could.

its funny you talk about things like labor point exploits, item duping and regrading as being issues with Archeage - these were all things that were present in the Korean version of the game, but simply weren't considered issues due to the way players in Korea play MMO's.

Keep in mind - Archeage is still somewhat popular in Korea. It only dropped off the top 50 games played in Korea last year. it is worth pointing out though, Lineage 2 is at number 20. This is not a list of MMO's - it is a list of all games in Korea. Aion is also on this list - at number 10 (the notion that Aion was made FOR the west is laughable, sorry).

Point is, these games are massive in Korea, which is why they are the games that Korean developers make. They aren't nearly as big in NA/EU though, and need alterations to reach that level.

I mean, is anyone even willing to argue that Lineage 2 was in the top 1000 games played in NA last year?

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

I mean, is anyone even willing to argue that Lineage 2 was in the top 1000 games played in NA last year?

After having watched the TL beta streams - western players don't even fucking know what L2 is, let alone having played it

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I mean, is anyone even willing to argue that Lineage 2 was in the top 1000 games played in NA last year?

After having watched the TL beta streams - western players don't even fucking know what L2 is, let alone having played it

Yeah, and yet at least in May last year, it was the 20th most played game in Korea - at least in cafes.

This is what I mean by these games being huge in Korea, but not here.

For reference, WoW was 16 - 6 places behind Aion.

KaelinTV

Noaani wrote: »

You'll note that I said the Blizzard fan base wasn't fanatical, not that it wasn't large. The Blizzard fanbase back then wouldn't simply buy every Blizzard game like they do now or did a few years ago).

To this point, I agree to an extent. There was already a massive following of Blizzard, which was rightly earned due to their three famous IP's, WoW tipped them past and was the icing on the cake.

While L2 did indeed fund much of Aions development, it wasn't with the proceeds from the NA servers. You can agree to disagree if you want, but the information is out there if you look (I went from not knowing a lot about L2 to knowing a reasonable amount about the behind the scenes over the last 3 or so years - there are people happy to talk about it).

Where did I ever stated it funded Aion's development on the NA side?, I stated Lineage 2's success in the west lead to an increase in staff at NCWest (Western subsidiary of NCSoft), which lead into Aion from a release perspective for the west, which further increased staff at NCWest. Which lends completely against the 5 figures of profit you pulled out of thin air for the western market profits of L2 yearly. NCSoft saw the NA market as a potential option for additional revenue...They would hardly invest their time and effort if it wasn't an option for a good source of income. They also skipped the idea of allowing a publisher take the reins and not invest heavily, but instead launched it themselves at additional cost under NCWest...To think they only made 5 figures of profit yearly for the west is quite a thing to say.

In regards to people happy to talk about L2, I can attest to this, as I have done many times myself. The game has fond memories for the player base that experienced it from launch.

I specifically said that it wasn't Thunderstruck trees that killed it - the server population had already dropped off dramatically by that point. By the time Trion made that change, they had come to the realization that the games population would never be very high, and so started monetizing it as much as they could.

Ahhh, mb on that. I misread that portion, but everything else I stated was valid and completely accurate. The game had P2W right after launch, and failed rapidly due to mishandling and the rapid adoption of p2w elements in the cash shop. Assuming that the western market looked at the game and disregarded Archeage as you stated is hugely inaccurate. It had a very large interested majority of 2 million, yet was doomed from the get go. It wasn't given an appropriate launch to reach it's true potential, which is one of the reason why we even have Ashes of Creation to begin with, as Steven has previously mentioned it was the straw that broke the camel's back. In regards to L2, it fostered growth in NA in its early years, which adds to the point of NA interest. Blanketing both games as having a lack of interest from the western audience due to their style, and therefore should adopt more PvE themepark content is an absolute wrong take.

its funny you talk about things like labor point exploits, item duping and regrading as being issues with Archeage - these were all things that were present in the Korean version of the game, but simply weren't considered issues due to the way players in Korea play MMO's.

Keep in mind - Archeage is still somewhat popular in Korea. It only dropped off the top 50 games played in Korea last year. it is worth pointing out though, Lineage 2 is at number 20. This is not a list of MMO's - it is a list of all games in Korea. Aion is also on this list - at number 10 (the notion that Aion was made FOR the west is laughable, sorry).

Point is, these games are massive in Korea, which is why they are the games that Korean developers make. They aren't nearly as big in NA/EU though, and need alterations to reach that level.

I mean, is anyone even willing to argue that Lineage 2 was in the top 1000 games played in NA last year?

They weren't an issue due to the fact that we have fundamentally different playing restrictions and standards between the West and Korea. They have to register there game account to a Korean social security number. So getting your account banned for being an idiot who cheats would leave you in a very tough bind. You are completely disregarding this fact and painting the games as having a lack of interest in the west as a result of the developer and publisher's failings, when it's clearly the opposite.

The failures of Archeage fall on the developer for not properly adapting said content and systems to the west. We've seen it time and again from Korean MMO's, where the developer either restricts their publishers from modifying the game to the appropriate standards for the target audience. Or worse, hand control to a predatory publisher that's aim is to milk as much as they can while being completely incompetent (Trion). None of these factors have anything to do with interest in the game, which you said is lacking, which both games showed the exact opposite.

In regards to your point in Korea. I don't doubt both games are popular in Korea, especially from NCSoft. Lineage has a massive fan base, as can be seen by the amount of their players and quarterly earnings reported by NCSoft. Which has many lineage titles btw (Unfortunately now mostly all mobile p2w garbage), as well as Aion and BnS. I'll disregard the Aion for the west comment, as I clearly never stated that and touched on already...

The games indeed are massive in Korea...NCSoft has always had a large fanbase in Asia since their initial release of Lineage 1. Korean's do enjoy a certain style of MMO's that differ from the western counterparts. But once again, stating that they aren't nearly as big in the NA/EU is a distorted viewpoint to take considering everything mentioned. Lineage 2 was successful in the west for some time, but did not have enough market penetration, presence to the public, and advertising to make it self known. Archeage was a catastrophe in the making, whose actions by Trion and the p2w nature of XLGames destroyed aby hope of the game succeeding in the west. The interest of 2 million registered users evaporating in a very short window...Just as it would any other western MMO of that time that would be released in the same manner.

I mean, is anyone even willing to argue that Lineage 2 was in the top 1000 games played in NA last year?

lol. This honestly made me laugh. Of course it wouldn't. The game is nothing but a shell of it's former self, once it went F2P the game was doomed, we don't enjoy P2W mechanics, and gameplay changed for the worst after a few years which resulted in the F2P model. You really need to stop reaching for straws with your views/arguments, they are incredibly filled with holes. No offense meant once more. But you point Korean MMO's need to adapt their model, and AoC in hand...Which is EXACTLY what they are doing. The game has heavy inspiration from Korean MMO's, but is being developed for the west, which none of the Korean MMO's obviously have been. All the problems that we see in Korean MMO's brought to the west will be non existent. There won't be any P2W with a sub model, content that is designed around the western market, but with a flair of what made the old school Korean MMO's, as well as MMO's of the gold era so successful without the P2W and Korean POV in gaming...You are literally getting exactly that. Yet not having a themepark instanced loot boss pinata will cause the game to lose appeal? Give me a break.

KaelinTV

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I mean, is anyone even willing to argue that Lineage 2 was in the top 1000 games played in NA last year?

After having watched the TL beta streams - western players don't even fucking know what L2 is, let alone having played it

Man, watching Project TL was extremely depressing, especially as a former L2 player. When Steven added his 2 cents during the last dev update, I could feel the hurt in his soul...haha. Took a few things that made L2 good, and stripped out everything else, dumbed down the rest, and slapped in mobile p2w and state it's in the Lineage universe...Sad panda.

It's quite insulting, blatant attempt at mashing mobile p2w mechanics into a desktop MMORPG with the release of TL. Trying to expand that filth into the desktop sphere and water down PC standards and acceptability of mobile mechanics is just downright depressing. Corporate and shareholder obligations at its absolute worst. Sad to see what NCSoft has turned into, every single game they release now is mobile...A mega money maker that has shifted all their IP's to mobile p2w garbage...Sad day...

Ludullu

KaelinTV wrote: »

It's quite insulting, blatant attempt at mashing mobile p2w mechanics into a desktop MMORPG with the release of TL. Trying to expand that filth into the desktop sphere and water down PC standards and acceptability of mobile mechanics is just downright depressing. Corporate and shareholder obligations at its absolute worst. Sad to see what NCSoft has turned into, every single game they release now is mobile...A mega money maker that has shifted all their IP's to mobile p2w garbage...Sad day...

I mean, they're just making what people are buying. If majority of their consumers (especially the big spenders) were truly not ok with this shit, NCsoft wouldn't be doing it.

KaelinTV

NiKr wrote: »

KaelinTV wrote: »

It's quite insulting, blatant attempt at mashing mobile p2w mechanics into a desktop MMORPG with the release of TL. Trying to expand that filth into the desktop sphere and water down PC standards and acceptability of mobile mechanics is just downright depressing. Corporate and shareholder obligations at its absolute worst. Sad to see what NCSoft has turned into, every single game they release now is mobile...A mega money maker that has shifted all their IP's to mobile p2w garbage...Sad day...

I mean, they're just making what people are buying. If majority of their consumers (especially the big spenders) were truly not ok with this shit, NCsoft wouldn't be doing it.

Agreed. It's just truly sad to see though. I was holding on to a sliver of hope that they would deliver based on their TL developer preview months back. But after what we were given, literally have none left for Lineage 3 anymore. With the embracement of monetary transactions in every NCSoft title now, with mobile leanings, not holding my breath for a shift unless Korean gamers get fed up with it. Unfortunately, it's too ingrained into their society for that to happen from the looks of it.=*(.

Child Item