Aggro/Threat mechanics don't work in PvX

MMORPG's have traditionally used a system of mob AI called Aggro in which a mob will preferentially attack player characters which perform certain actions, primarily that of dealing damage to the mob but later expanded to things like healing friendly characters. This was a simple AI which fit the constraints of early computer processor cycles while producing mob behavior which was better than the most primitive system of just attacking the nearest target or most recent attacker. Such simplistic AI would have allowed trivially easy control of what character a mob attacked making for dull and unchallenging PvE.

Under aggro systems Tanking classes were given special skills which move them up the mob priority list despite a low damage output from the Tank. In essence they break the otherwise effective AI of a mob and force it into inefficiently attacking the character most resistant to that attack. So long as mobs are balanced around this mechanic the gameplay is reasonably compelling mix of puzzle, timing and teamwork and it makes the Tanks role of being a meat-shield far more skillful and enjoyable then it would otherwise be if it was completely passive.

The problem is that these whole dynamic collapses when the opponent is not an AI but instead another player with full awareness of how the game works and full freedom to attack whomever they wish. And yet Tanking IS a viable class in most PvP games because Tanks are built differently in such games so as to make opposing players either rationally choose to attack the tank rather than another target or allow the Tank to create situations in which opponents have no other option but to attack them thus expending offensive potential inefficiently.

AoC would be far better off replicating Tank design from PvP games such as Overwatch and LoL and pairing them with mob AI's that seek to replicate the rational choices that a human would make in combat that cause them to attack Tanks. This will allow Tank gameplay to be consistent from PvE to PvP.

Well established PvP Tank mechanics include targeted pull effects, silence or other enemy DPS reductions, 'vaulting' into the middle of enemy groupings, increased damage potential when surrounded, projectile shields and movement barriers.

Some new methods which might be explored would be 'blinding' type effects on opponents which allow only nearby characters to be seen and attacked. An effect which leashes a melee opponent to remain within a short distance of the Tank. A damage redirection from nearby allies towards the Tank. I'm sure other skills can be created which provide control of enemy damage which would be effective on both players and AI.

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Ruerik

Of all the games I have played, SWTOR got tanks in PVP right.

What I mean is, having threat in PvE only content is the best way to do it, and there is good reason its been the standard in RPG games for decades.

For pvp?
Forced target is a big no thank you for me, theres already so many different forms of crowd control around, dont need stacked tanks to effectively have a 'come over here' features to pull enemies into aoe for easy wins.

In SWTOR, tank threats caused massive damage reduction to the target, unless that target changed to attack the tank.

This allows the player that is the target of the taunt to keep thier agency, and gives them the decision to make. Do I keep on the target I was already attacking and do massive less damage, or do I go to the tank, or do I disengage to try to find a better opening.

Something similar to that allows the tank threat mechanic to have purpose and meaning in pvp.

Ludullu

Vaknar point out that I'm a forgetful dumdum. Wiki literally has a quote from steven about pvp taunts. The quote doesn't amount to anything more than "we'll need feedback on this stuff", but Steven's preference is forced target (I'd assume cause L2).

In other words, my previous ping to Vaknar about having a dev discussion about these kinds of mechanics still applies. This thread is just too small in its feedback scope.

Songcaller

Vaknar collects the general points of decent threads when feedback is wanted. The thread has 3000 views. It is not our issue if most prefer to read than comment. That is what you get when the same titans go in circles in every thread.

Ludullu

Neurath wrote: »

Vaknar collects the general points of decent threads when feedback is wanted. The thread has 3000 views. It is not our issue if most prefer to read than comment. That is what you get when the same titans go in circles in every thread.

Oh, I don't have a problem with that. If anything, we kinda did exactly what Steven asked - gave our feedback. It's just that instead of a general feel for the mechanic across all forum-goers, we have just a few people going waaaaaay too deep on the topic. So, I'd imagine, when Intrepid get around to building their taunt ability for a showcase or the alpha itself (cause we still haven't seen a taunt) - they'll make a dev discussion about it.

Songcaller

I too feel the taunts from Warhammer Online and SWTOR are superior to L2 taunt. Javelin cancels a cast so taunt doesn't need to cancel a taunt and you don't need forced target in a hybrid game. However, I feel some decisions are on the poor end due to nostalgia so I don't expect any real changes.

Mag7spy

Neurath wrote: »

I too feel the taunts from Warhammer Online and SWTOR are superior to L2 taunt. Javelin cancels a cast so taunt doesn't need to cancel a taunt and you don't need forced target in a hybrid game. However, I feel some decisions are on the poor end due to nostalgia so I don't expect any real changes.

And why feed back is important, wish more people spoke up against these things (my guild included). THey want a good mmorpg, and have insane strong reactions to things like this but people don't really type and voice their thoughts enough.

So it generally comes down that IS takes feed, back but also looks at potential issues that can be caused and understand what players want at the same time (even if it is many voiceless ones), and of course what players won't want. Finding the right balance to apply things in reason.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

L2, SWTOR and Warhammer Online.

Some of these instances were all on the tank, other instances were pulls from a third party and a taunt applied by the tank after the pull.

Assuming taunts have an appropriate range, if you are getting taunted while you are at the back, you got outplayed.

Taunt range should be fairly short - a third to a quarter of a mage or rangers range. AoE taunt should be basically melee range.

Tank/ranger may be something of an issue with this, but not necessarily.

As to the tanks from the above two games - I'm not going to.bother with L2, but both Warhammer and SWTOR had taunts that turned tanks in to a debuff class,rather than a tank.

Put that version of a taunt in a game with serious PvP (WAR was somewhat serious, SWTOR is not,
Ashes by all accounts should eclipse both games) and tanks will literally be used to maintain that DPS debuff on as many people as possible.

That will be their role in PvP - DPS debuffer.

This is a scenario I am personally specifically attempting to prevent.

Songcaller

The question wasn't about the functionality of the taunt. The question was about the pull effect. Javelin already does the work you want, it's just javelin won't be so effective in pve.

Forcing a player to choose whether to hit the tank or not is a debuff same applies yo the howling gale. Its a classic and much loved system of taunts. To state no one else can have a debuff other than bard is a misnomer.

Also, the debuff only works on players. Warhammer Online was a crap game with excellent interplay between the classes. Ashes combat is trash in comparison right now. You can apply a band aid and call it force target but the band aid will not fix anything.

People will be force taunted, won't hit the tank, will dance around the tank and then go back to killing others. Though I suspect you would also want targets to be disabled by a forced taunt so tank can limp in for the kill. A short range taunt is also crap for pve when you only have one charge.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

L2, SWTOR and Warhammer Online.

Some of these instances were all on the tank, other instances were pulls from a third party and a taunt applied by the tank after the pull.

Assuming taunts have an appropriate range, if you are getting taunted while you are at the back, you got outplayed.

Taunt range should be fairly short - a third to a quarter of a mage or rangers range. AoE taunt should be basically melee range.

Tank/ranger may be something of an issue with this, but not necessarily.

As to the tanks from the above two games - I'm not going to.bother with L2, but both Warhammer and SWTOR had taunts that turned tanks in to a debuff class,rather than a tank.

Put that version of a taunt in a game with serious PvP (WAR was somewhat serious, SWTOR is not,
Ashes by all accounts should eclipse both games) and tanks will literally be used to maintain that DPS debuff on as many people as possible.

That will be their role in PvP - DPS debuffer.

This is a scenario I am personally specifically attempting to prevent.

Full vibe if tanks don't do what you want how you want it isn't a tank to you. Makes absolutely 0 sense, it isn't about a debuff, etc it is how it is applied and functions. You are just using the argument to try to refute other suggestions.

Sudden tank taunt as very limited rng compared to all other mmorpgs, and the aoe taunt is only melee range. So pve aggro skills are now suddenly nerfed conveniently. So if you are suggesting range be a lot more limited I'm already sensing flaws in you suggesting it works the same, which can raised a bunch of other red flags. Though i already talked about all this

Songcaller

Also, the taunts in Warhammer and SWTOR weren't DPS Debuffs, they caused DPS to drop against any target but the tank for the duration. You could still hit the tank at full keel. Thus, the taunt isn't actually a debuff, its more of a soft forced target. Its actually really effective when a tank is grouped. More effective than a forced target taunt in fact. As with all taunts, a lone tank won't get mileage out of any taunt unlike my Threat Stacks. I still believe you can use Threat Stacks and Taunts. I just don't feel a Forced Target Taunt will be a magic fix it all. The tank will still have all of the current skills. It will be interesting to see tank in Phase 2.

Mag7spy

Neurath wrote: »

Also, the taunts in Warhammer and SWTOR weren't DPS Debuffs, they caused DPS to drop against any target but the tank for the duration. You could still hit the tank at full keel. Thus, the taunt isn't actually a debuff, its more of a soft forced target. Its actually really effective when a tank is grouped. More effective than a forced target taunt in fact. As with all taunts, a lone tank won't get mileage out of any taunt unlike my Threat Stacks. I still believe you can use Threat Stacks and Taunts. I just don't feel a Forced Target Taunt will be a magic fix it all. The tank will still have all of the current skills. It will be interesting to see tank in Phase 2.

I loved with Sith juggernaut in pvp, felt powerful and impactful, though i leaned a lot more to a dps side of things. Most fond memories was pushing someone into fire and killing them, and getting jumped by two jedi only to take them both out lol.

Songcaller

I've tried to replicate the Sith Juggernaut in the thread. I feel there are treasures untold in hidden troves. Its all well and good to state 'SWTOR wasn't a hardcore PvP Game' but neither is Ashes because otherwise we'd have full loot on death. I've played a lot of tanks and I understand the pitfalls, bad decisions, good decisions and the ebb and flow of raids. I've tried to impart my knowledge to give the best advice. I still believe tank needs at least two charges and I still believe tank should have Taunt, Goad and Irritate too.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

To state no one else can have a debuff other than bard is a misnomer.

I didn't state that only bards should have debuffs.

In fact, if you look back through this thread, you'll see me say several times that most of all classes should have debuffs of some sort - bards should just be the best debuffers in the game.

A 30-50% DPS debuff is massive. That one debuff is in itself past the damage debuffing cap in a number of games (a number of games have a hard limit of 25%).

You had better believe that players like myself will use that as a debuff rather than as a taunt, meaning you and yours will be going in to any PvP setting with me and mine doing a fraction of the damage we will be doing - unless you also treat it as a debuff rather than a taunt.

People will be force taunted, won't hit the tank, will dance around the tank and then go back to killing others.

Indeed that absolutely will happen.

However, while they are dancing around the tank, they are not attacking the healer or the DPS. Then when they do back to attacking said healer or DPS, the tank can just taunt them again (well, eventially).

So, even in this situation where the taunt is not having the lasting impact that it will often have - when players are doing everything they can to ignore it, it is still having an effect.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are just using the argument to try to refute other suggestions.

No.

I am telling you and Neurath how I wouldput a taunt that is a DPS debuff to use.

If that is in the game, and you come up against me and my guild in PvP (or any other outcome focused guild), expect to have that effect on your DPS as a debuff, rather than as a taunt.

Songcaller

You don't understand the dynamic at all. Your most heavily defensive class is now a taunt stick left to taunt a dancing distraction whilst the rest of the raid bypass the tank and decimate your force. You can't just taunt someone in pvp and expect the scenario to pan out like a raid. TTK will be 30 to 60 seconds for a 1vs1. Tank will also have hard counters against them. I'm really sure tanks will love to be a useless taunt stick who's only task in pvp is to make someone else dance whilst the friendly raid is wiped.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

You are just using the argument to try to refute other suggestions.

No.

I am telling you and Neurath how I wouldput a taunt that is a DPS debuff to use.

If that is in the game, and you come up against me and my guild in PvP (or any other outcome focused guild), expect to have that effect on your DPS as a debuff, rather than as a taunt.

You you are describing the point, use the debuff on the issue player to protect your team. If that player attacks other players they are less effective, if they attack the tank they don't do reduced damage.

Neurath explained this.

*edit

You can take fruther steps in how it works, (i also explained this already) and make it so it can be cleansed. It becomes annoying stopping your dmg where if you kill the tank you won't be as nerfed.

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

You don't understand the dynamic at all. Your most heavily defensive class is now a taunt stick left to taunt a dancing distraction whilst the rest of the raid bypass the tank and decimate your force. You can't just taunt someone in pvp and expect the scenario to pan out like a raid. TTK will be 30 to 60 seconds for a 1vs1. Tank will also have hard counters against them. I'm really sure tanks will love to be a useless taunt stick who's only task in pvp is to make someone else dance whilst the friendly raid is wiped.

So, due to my history in a PvE game where exact strategies were literally never discussed (there is still a lack of information to be found on 18 year old encounters), I have not and will not talk about how I would use this ability past stating what the end result will be.

That end result is that if you come up against me, that effect on the taunt will be used as a debuff.

That does not mean the rest of my guild will be left undefended.

I never expect PvP to play out like a raid. There is far less variation in PvP. People are predictable.

Mag7spy

Noaani wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

You don't understand the dynamic at all. Your most heavily defensive class is now a taunt stick left to taunt a dancing distraction whilst the rest of the raid bypass the tank and decimate your force. You can't just taunt someone in pvp and expect the scenario to pan out like a raid. TTK will be 30 to 60 seconds for a 1vs1. Tank will also have hard counters against them. I'm really sure tanks will love to be a useless taunt stick who's only task in pvp is to make someone else dance whilst the friendly raid is wiped.

So, due to my history in a PvE game where exact strategies were literally never discussed (there is still a lack of information to be found on 18 year old encounters), I have not and will not talk about how I would use this ability past stating what the end result will be.

That end result is that if you come up against me, that effect on the taunt will be used as a debuff.

That does not mean the rest of my guild will be left undefended.

I never expect PvP to play out like a raid. There is far less variation in PvP. People are predictable.

People that know how to PvP are not predictable, this most likely is a case of the depth of PvP you played had a system in place that did not allow for enough of a skill gap, tab being part of that reason. The more action elements the less predictable things will be with more elements you need to react and take account for than just doing your rotation.

Noaani

Mag7spy wrote: »

People that know how to PvP are not predictable, this most likely is a case of the depth of PvP you played had a system in place that did not allow for enough of a skill gap, tab being part of that reason. The more action elements the less predictable things will be with more elements you need to react and take account for than just doing your rotation.

My dude, your fighter game background is showing! How embarrassing for you!

Literally none of what you are talking about here applies to MMO PvP - this is even more true when you consider that we are talking about medium to large scale PvP.

In an MMO, especially at large scale, you are essentially fighting the same people all the time. If I am the second best guild on my server, it is only really the second and third best that I am going to be fighting against.

Those guilds are going to always have the same basic leadership and communication structure during PvP, and that is what shapes PvP variation - not skill caps or action combat.

If you are playing a fighting game with 500 people around your skill level, you have 500 people that will all play the game just a little differently. In an MMO, when we are talking guild scale PvP, you guild leadership is fighting guild leadership, not players. Realistically, guilds only have two or three sets of leadership that they are ever fighting against - and that gets really predictable.

Songcaller

The only predictability in pvp is the eventual tactics to be used. The problem is when those tactics will be and in what order. Sometimes new tactics will enter the mix in response to opposition tactics. There are tons of tactics and there are tons of variations in who will engage first.

Tactics are grown from situational awareness. 'Kill the healer' becomes kill 'Shady Shrooms first'. Yet, if Shady Shrooms can't be killed the target list will change. Someone else claimed aoe forced target taunt would prevent focused fire which it would not.

Raid guilds are typically the best at focused fire and coordination. However, taunts are difficult to handle in large scale. A tank simply can't be in all places at once. Thus, you would not create broad tactics around taunt because taunt is not a constant.

Sure, taunt might sway localised fights but taunt won't sway larger fights. Javelin on the other hand can sway large fights because Shady Shrooms might creep forward and all of a sudden the target list is operational due to the pull.

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