Corruption/pvp

Chicago

How many of you will still be engaging in in world pvp/ ganking reguardless of corruption?

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Abarat

Ravicus wrote: »

Its possible to agree to disagree and move on from this circular argument as well.

its not a circular argument. @Noaani has said things, in defense of his central argument, that are simply NOT true.
i would like to hear his reasoning for using misleading/untrue information is his posts.

Noaani

Abarat wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

As Azherae said above, this is getting in to a semantic argument that Mag has caused.

However, I'm order to illustrate to you the difference, freeholds as they currently are designed are not designed to be a catalyst for third party RMT, however, it will *ACT* as a catalyst for third party RMT among a very small number of players.

That doesnt mean we should label freeholds as a catalyst for third party RMT.

Now, I know you'll want to say "you can't compare RMT to corruption" or some such, and you are right. The thing is, I'm not comparing them. What I am doing is trying to illustrate the concept to you, and the veat way to do that is to give an example where things are much more bold, and thus easier to see.

So, that is what the above is, an example to illustrate to you the difference between something that is a thing, and something that acts as a thing, just using a much bolder example to where the differences are easier to see.

if freeholds *act* as a catalyst to rmt, they ARE a catalyst to rmt and should be addressed.

The problem with this stance is that we also know that corruption being absent from the seas is turning players off the game.

While it is only a few players (from my perspective), if we are going to take the stance of "if it *acts* as this, it IS this and should be addressed", then there are many things we need to address.

As a stance, this is dangerous.

Noaani

Abarat wrote: »

i think Noaani 's internet went out.

No, I'm just busy right now.

Able to post small replies and such, but not much else.

Abarat

Noaani wrote: »

Abarat wrote: »

i think Noaani 's internet went out.

No, I'm just busy right now.

Able to post small replies and such, but not much else.

aka, desperately trying to find a quote to back up my outlandish claims

Abarat

Noaani wrote: »

[

The problem with this stance is that we also know that corruption being absent from the seas is turning players off the game.

changing the subject again. sources?

Abarat

Noaani wrote: »

Abarat wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

As Azherae said above, this is getting in to a semantic argument that Mag has caused.

However, I'm order to illustrate to you the difference, freeholds as they currently are designed are not designed to be a catalyst for third party RMT, however, it will *ACT* as a catalyst for third party RMT among a very small number of players.

That doesnt mean we should label freeholds as a catalyst for third party RMT.

Now, I know you'll want to say "you can't compare RMT to corruption" or some such, and you are right. The thing is, I'm not comparing them. What I am doing is trying to illustrate the concept to you, and the veat way to do that is to give an example where things are much more bold, and thus easier to see.

So, that is what the above is, an example to illustrate to you the difference between something that is a thing, and something that acts as a thing, just using a much bolder example to where the differences are easier to see.

if freeholds *act* as a catalyst to rmt, they ARE a catalyst to rmt and should be addressed.

The problem with this stance is that we also know that corruption being absent from the seas is turning players off the game.

While it is only a few players (from my perspective), if we are going to take the stance of "if it *acts* as this, it IS this and should be addressed", then there are many things we need to address.

As a stance, this is dangerous.

LOL, we are not discussing feelings, but actions... data. people being butthurt about open seas is not a *acts as * or catalyst... it is a made up... we have not played the game. I do respect how you are dodging though... it is admirable.

<incoming 'made up' argument>

Sweatycup

Maybe they should just knock off xp and essentially levels slowly from gaining corruption. So a 50 can be bumped down to a 49 and so on.

Would be cool too to gain buffs from not getting corrupted after successful defense pvp too. Then you can min max your kills.

Noaani

Abarat wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

[

The problem with this stance is that we also know that corruption being absent from the seas is turning players off the game.

changing the subject again. sources?

It isn't changing the topic, it is trying to illustrate the topic to you.

Arguably, you asking for sources is an attempt to change the topic.

That said, I mean, the source for that is these forums. Talking to people that have been watching the development of the game. The same sources that say freeholds will attract a small amount of RMT. The same sources that say people will still gain corruption in Ashes even with the systems in place.

Why do you always ask for sources for these basic things? If you dont have the foundational knowledge of the topic, why are you discussing it?

Every time you ask for sources, all it does is show tour lack of knowledge on the topic.

Phlight

Sweatycup wrote: »

Maybe they should just knock off xp and essentially levels slowly from gaining corruption. So a 50 can be bumped down to a 49 and so on.

Would be cool too to gain buffs from not getting corrupted after successful defense pvp too. Then you can min max your kills.

In FF11 when you died you could potentially level down if your stored experience wasn't high enough. Getting a rez helped with the exp debt loss. What if dying as a red target gave you such a harsh penalty to exp debt that you could/would lose a level. I hate the idea but a buddy of mine reminded me of how awful that system was. Sounds perfect to add to the risk of being Mr. Gank.

I don't mind the forced interactions of PvP. I welcome them. I have never been the dude who attacks a person for self-satisfaction. However, I'm down to ward off others from a location as part of a joint effort.

Dygz

Abarat wrote: »

was it not recently revealed that pvp death penalties were removed in teh open ocean? did i dream that?

"If you are not Corrupt and enter the Open Seas, you take a mitigated form of the death penalties, you will have a debuff applied upon death and in addition, you will still suffer the gear degradation and gear decay upon death as well. But you will either be significantly reduced in the experience debt accrued through death in the Open Seas if you're not Corrupt or there won't be experience debt if you're not Corrupt."
--- Steven on The Ashen Forge 100th Episode July 9, 2023

The Open Seas has death penalties. The Open Seas might not have experience debt.
I don't understand why you mentioned death penalties, though. I have no issues with the death penalties.
Even if we die while Green, it's the same death penalties as dying from a mob.
I simply don't want other players to force me to experience PvP combat when I'm not in the mood for PvP combat - because PvP combat is more intense/hardcore than PvE combat and I am a Casual Challenge player.

If people forced me to eat cake when I'm not in the mood for cake, I would become engraged.
And, the retort, "Well, why are you at a birthday party if you don't want to eat cake...?" would enrage me more.
I would avoid being in any space where people could force me to eat cake when I'm not in the mood for cake.
And, I would also avoid being near people who think it's OK to force people to eat cake when they aren't in the mood for cake.
I like to eat cake sometimes. That doesn't mean I'm OK with other people making me eat cake when I'm not in the mood for cake. And really, there is no magic number above 1 time where I will be OK with that.

I'm not butthurt about anything related to Ashes.
The people who are OK with people being forced to eat cake should get to go to the parties where people like to do that. I'm not gonna go to those parties. And I don't have to experience those parties to know that I don't want to be there.
I don't ever want to experience being forced to eat cake when I'm not in the mood. If do experience, I damn well better be able to report that as an assault and have the culprit punished.
But, also... I don't really want to be hanging out in a space where I'm watching other people being forced to eat cake when they aren't in the mood to eat cake.
If there are people who love that - great! I'm not going to say there should not be spaces for people who think that is fun. They can have those spaces and be happy. It doesn't hurt me to know those spaces exist.
I'm just not interested in being in a place where people think that behavior is OK - and where there is some possibility that I could be forced to do something I'm not in the mood for without "criminal" punishment/Corruption.

PvPers be like, "Oh! You are afraid of being forced to eat cake when you don't want to. Just stay near us! If any one tries to make you eat cake, we will force THEM to eat cake. And then you can still enjoy the party!!"
And, I'm all, "Uh... that's OK. I really don't want to be in any space where people are forcing other people to eat cake. You can have fun with that if you want, but... I'm gonna go hang out at a party where people can't do that."

Noaani

Abarat wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Abarat wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

As you and I have discussed, it may *ACT* as a deterrent in a very limited number of cases, but only in its function as a means of adding weight.

Noaani I am not a semantics expert like you, but I AM pretty sure that something that *ACTS* like a deterrent IS a deterrent.

You must be a VERY bored person, lol. still awaiting your sourcing on the FACT that Intrepid did not design corruption to deter unwanted pvp/griefing.

I think you're once again imagining that Noaani said either of those specific things.

I am NOT imagining that Noaani said intrepid specifically indicated Corruption was not designed as a deterrent.

Please be clear with what it is I are and are not saying.

Corruption isn't in the game as a *PvP* deterrent.

I did not once say it wasn't in the game as a deterrent. It is. Intrepid said it is. It is in the game as a griefing deterrent.

Intrepid have always been clear about what they consider PvP in Ashes to be. It is a fight over a thing. It could be an in game thing, or it could be that you are upset with a person (your feelings are a thing).

What PvP is not, is attacking and killing a person for no reason. If *you* consider this to be PvP, then the issue you are having here is that your definition of what PvP is ever so slightly at odds with Intrepids definition of PvP.

Based on this, corruption doesn't function as a PvP deterrent. If you have a reason to try and kill someone in game, you will. If you have no reason to try and kill someone, then it isn't PvP.

Now, I'm sure you will ask me for sources - the thing is, I am not your researcher. It is on YOU to understand the game before getting in to a debate - it is not my responsibility to educate you. That said, I have been known to educate others in the past, but only those that are respectful and/or actually give off the appearance of wanting to know more as opposed to what ever the fuck it is you are doing.

So, three sources for everything I say are this, this and this. Next time you ask me for sources, expect me to copy/paste this.

BlackBrony

Abarat wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Abarat wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

As you and I have discussed, it may *ACT* as a deterrent in a very limited number of cases, but only in its function as a means of adding weight.

@Noaani I am not a semantics expert like you, but I AM pretty sure that something that *ACTS* like a deterrent IS a deterrent.

You must be a VERY bored person, lol. still awaiting your sourcing on the FACT that Intrepid did not design corruption to deter unwanted pvp/griefing.

I think you're once again imagining that Noaani said either of those specific things.

I am NOT imagining that @Noaani said intrepid specifically indicated Corruption was not designed as a deterrent. but, as of now, he is unable to provide any back up for that... @Azherae since you are apparently auditioning for the new sidekick position, since @BlackBrony has been defeated, can you provide any actual references for this claim?

Only someone who doesn't want to argue would see a forum discussion as a war.

Dizz1

Chicago wrote: »

How many of you will still be engaging in in world pvp/ ganking reguardless of corruption?

I don't know other people but I was born in a generation and environment that promote and educate public 'Do not do others what you would not have them do to you.' no matter it's in real life or internet.

So I never initiated any fight/harassment(or anything like those) to others in contents or areas not purely designed for PVP. Not means that I don't like PVP contents, it's just I don't like and don't want to force others or be forced by others to participate any kind of PVP situation when I or other don't want to participate PVP.

Open world PVP is a fun gameplay and I'd like to participate when the content has a clear state of hostility for example: factions in WOW or declare wars to other guilds or node war or raiding caravans. But you can do open world PVP doesn't mean that you should do it at any where in any time to anyone as you like(or even all the time) IMO.

Don't build you happiness on someone else's pain for short.

Caww

Dizz wrote: »

.... Don't build you happiness on someone else's pain ......

too many people will do this anyway and nothing will stop it

Depraved

Dygz wrote: »

Abarat wrote: »

was it not recently revealed that pvp death penalties were removed in teh open ocean? did i dream that?

"If you are not Corrupt and enter the Open Seas, you take a mitigated form of the death penalties, you will have a debuff applied upon death and in addition, you will still suffer the gear degradation and gear decay upon death as well. But you will either be significantly reduced in the experience debt accrued through death in the Open Seas if you're not Corrupt or there won't be experience debt if you're not Corrupt."
--- Steven on The Ashen Forge 100th Episode July 9, 2023

The Open Seas has death penalties. The Open Seas might not have experience debt.
I don't understand why you mentioned death penalties, though. I have no issues with the death penalties.
Even if we die while Green, it's the same death penalties as dying from a mob.
I simply don't want other players to force me to experience PvP combat when I'm not in the mood for PvP combat - because PvP combat is more intense/hardcore than PvE combat and I am a Casual Challenge player.

If people forced me to eat cake when I'm not in the mood for cake, I would become engraged.
And, the retort, "Well, why are you at a birthday party if you don't want to eat cake...?" would enrage me more.
I would avoid being in any space where people could force me to eat cake when I'm not in the mood for cake.
And, I would also avoid being near people who think it's OK to force people to eat cake when they aren't in the mood for cake.
I like to eat cake sometimes. That doesn't mean I'm OK with other people making me eat cake when I'm not in the mood for cake. And really, there is no magic number above 1 time where I will be OK with that.

I'm not butthurt about anything related to Ashes.
The people who are OK with people being forced to eat cake should get to go to the parties where people like to do that. I'm not gonna go to those parties. And I don't have to experience those parties to know that I don't want to be there.
I don't ever want to experience being forced to eat cake when I'm not in the mood. If do experience, I damn well better be able to report that as an assault and have the culprit punished.
But, also... I don't really want to be hanging out in a space where I'm watching other people being forced to eat cake when they aren't in the mood to eat cake.
If there are people who love that - great! I'm not going to say there should not be spaces for people who think that is fun. They can have those spaces and be happy. It doesn't hurt me to know those spaces exist.
I'm just not interested in being in a place where people think that behavior is OK - and where there is some possibility that I could be forced to do something I'm not in the mood for without "criminal" punishment/Corruption.

PvPers be like, "Oh! You are afraid of being forced to eat cake when you don't want to. Just stay near us! If any one tries to make you eat cake, we will force THEM to eat cake. And then you can still enjoy the party!!"
And, I'm all, "Uh... that's OK. I really don't want to be in any space where people are forcing other people to eat cake. You can have fun with that if you want, but... I'm gonna go hang out at a party where people can't do that."

what if you are doing an easy quest or killing some easy mobs, then someone else starts killing all your mobs, forcing you to not kill mobs and wait there doing nothing or go to another area, would you get enraged too?
just curious.

Depraved

Dizz wrote: »

Chicago wrote: »

How many of you will still be engaging in in world pvp/ ganking reguardless of corruption?

I don't know other people but I was born in a generation and environment that promote and educate public 'Do not do others what you would not have them do to you.' no matter it's in real life or internet.

Don't build you happiness on someone else's pain for short.

Basically, don't fk girls because you don't want them to fk you? unless you are secretly into pegging, wink wink

Abarat

HumblePuffin wrote: »

@Abarat while not always true it seems many use “corruption isn’t a good enough deterrent” when they really mean “anyone who can attack me without my permission is a problem”

I wholeheartedly agree this is a thing.

Dygz

Depraved wrote: »

what if you are doing an easy quest or killing some easy mobs, then someone else starts killing all your mobs, forcing you to not kill mobs and wait there doing nothing or go to another area, would you get enraged too?
just curious.

I don't own mobs. And I prefer to play MMORPGs where we all share mobs, rather than MMORPGs where we compete over mobs. So, no, I don't become enraged over kill stealing because, for me, kill stealing is not really a thing.
Especially now that WoW, after 10 years, has solved the Endgame conundrum for me - I'd be playing WoW, where there is no competition for mobs, way more than I would play Ashes.

Dygz

HumblePuffin wrote: »

@Abarat while not always true it seems many use “corruption isn’t a good enough deterrent” when they really mean “anyone who can attack me without my permission is a problem”

I think this is claim is false.
Attacking without permission is not a problem - because Corruption should mean that if I don't fight back, there is a decent chance that the attacker will hit me once or twice and then choose to combat someone interested in PvP combat - so they can avoid Corruption.
So, just hitting once or twice and then moving on is no issue.
Continuing the battle when your player opponent is not in the mood to do that activity is a problem - for people who don't love PvP.

So... Corruption has to be enough of a deterrent that a bunch of my time is not wasted by unwanted PvP combat. And, for me, the Corruption mechanic would have to be in play across the entire map.
I wouldn't have a problem with the people who hit me once or twice and move on when I don't fight back.
I would have a problem with the people who prolong the combat encounter when I'm not in the mood for that encounter.

Depraved

Dygz wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

what if you are doing an easy quest or killing some easy mobs, then someone else starts killing all your mobs, forcing you to not kill mobs and wait there doing nothing or go to another area, would you get enraged too?
just curious.

I don't own mobs. And I prefer to play MMORPGs where we all share mobs, rather than MMORPGs where we compete over mobs. So, no, I don't become enraged over kill stealing because, for me, kill stealing is not really a thing.
Especially now that WoW, after 10 years, has solved the Endgame conundrum for me - I'd be playing WoW, where there is no competition for mobs, way more than I would play Ashes.

yeah but lets say i go to where you are and follow you around killing all the mobs you want to kill and gathering all the flowers you want to gather

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