Noaani wrote: » None of what I have been talking about is public knowledge. You know this. How can you claim it is bullshit public relations if the public didn't know about it?
JamesSunderland wrote: » But i have this print from the old Trion forums of Trion Staff member Scapes implying "Game better cuz P2W RNG Box Tree by player reports".
Noaani wrote: » JamesSunderland wrote: » But i have this print from the old Trion forums of Trion Staff member Scapes implying "Game better cuz P2W RNG Box Tree by player reports". Oh yeah, the RNG box with it was a mistake. For sure. I'm not saying their execution was perfect. I'm just saying the issue they saw, and the eventual fix to it.
JamesSunderland wrote: » Such "fix" to such "issue" was certainly not welcomed by a huge amount of players that ragequited, as seen in the fairly sharp downfall of population in the following month(s), maybe they did not believed in said "issue" nor in said "fix"? Who knows, we can only make assumptions right Noaani?
Noaani wrote: » wouldn't any attempt at pinpointing these things by you be you making assumptions?
JamesSunderland wrote: » Noaani wrote: » wouldn't any attempt at pinpointing these things by you be you making assumptions? Correct Noaani, it's all about the assumptions out here right? Some of them more based others more baseless.
KingDDD wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » lp KingDDD wrote: » Azherae wrote: » My point was that things are quick to add and the coding and design skill at Amazon, as well as Lumberyard itself, were not good enough to be used as a metric. In short, I would not use New World as a way to estimate how long anything takes to add to any MMO because they did not have the experience required to reach even average development time/quality of an AAA studio at any point during development. If you believe that the latter half of that video's issues, bugs, and design flaws are the result of the design change and not their skill/quality issues, then yeah, we should probably stop. This video focuses more on actual bugs than on the other design flaws I've studied from them (at least until 35:00 or so when it starts really getting into design decisions), but I'd like to say that I truly appreciate your willingness to engage with it enough to clearly give your stance without making accusations or whatever, it is refreshing. I'd say two years to make the amount of content they did is pretty impressive considering they had to code/make art for all the tools needed for designers to make a more indepth pve experience. Bugs like the window drag glitch were never found because QA/coders/designers were in perpetual crunch making the pve content. That has nothing to do with their competence but has everything to do with suits and release dates. Likewise to you. Some of the folks on these forums make me laugh. yo they had no content in that game at launch. I was fighting the same mobs from the tutorial area as end game. The only interesting thing about that game was pvp and politics, everything else was dead boring and extremely basic. Areas, mobs, quest, everything is just copy pasted do to rushing it out. According to the art director for EQN it took their art team roughly 8 weeks (if the same person did everything) to take a basic critter creature (in the example given it was a bunny) from concept art to basic sculpture, to rigging to texture work to in game with 4 or so animations. This gets more and more complicated when you are adding weapon swings, unique abilities, and the like. Is NW or Ashes the same game as EQN, no. But assets frankly take a lot of time to make. I'm a artist i know how work goes lmao. Doesnt change the fact there was no content and the same few mobs you could count on one or two hands were copy pasted, including those animations you are talking about on different races of mobs on top of it. So as an artist does that sound accurate? Did you find the number of models and animations in NW roughly applicable to what you'd expect of 2 years of development from a team of 20 or so?
Mag7spy wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » lp KingDDD wrote: » Azherae wrote: » My point was that things are quick to add and the coding and design skill at Amazon, as well as Lumberyard itself, were not good enough to be used as a metric. In short, I would not use New World as a way to estimate how long anything takes to add to any MMO because they did not have the experience required to reach even average development time/quality of an AAA studio at any point during development. If you believe that the latter half of that video's issues, bugs, and design flaws are the result of the design change and not their skill/quality issues, then yeah, we should probably stop. This video focuses more on actual bugs than on the other design flaws I've studied from them (at least until 35:00 or so when it starts really getting into design decisions), but I'd like to say that I truly appreciate your willingness to engage with it enough to clearly give your stance without making accusations or whatever, it is refreshing. I'd say two years to make the amount of content they did is pretty impressive considering they had to code/make art for all the tools needed for designers to make a more indepth pve experience. Bugs like the window drag glitch were never found because QA/coders/designers were in perpetual crunch making the pve content. That has nothing to do with their competence but has everything to do with suits and release dates. Likewise to you. Some of the folks on these forums make me laugh. yo they had no content in that game at launch. I was fighting the same mobs from the tutorial area as end game. The only interesting thing about that game was pvp and politics, everything else was dead boring and extremely basic. Areas, mobs, quest, everything is just copy pasted do to rushing it out. According to the art director for EQN it took their art team roughly 8 weeks (if the same person did everything) to take a basic critter creature (in the example given it was a bunny) from concept art to basic sculpture, to rigging to texture work to in game with 4 or so animations. This gets more and more complicated when you are adding weapon swings, unique abilities, and the like. Is NW or Ashes the same game as EQN, no. But assets frankly take a lot of time to make. I'm a artist i know how work goes lmao. Doesnt change the fact there was no content and the same few mobs you could count on one or two hands were copy pasted, including those animations you are talking about on different races of mobs on top of it.
KingDDD wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » lp KingDDD wrote: » Azherae wrote: » My point was that things are quick to add and the coding and design skill at Amazon, as well as Lumberyard itself, were not good enough to be used as a metric. In short, I would not use New World as a way to estimate how long anything takes to add to any MMO because they did not have the experience required to reach even average development time/quality of an AAA studio at any point during development. If you believe that the latter half of that video's issues, bugs, and design flaws are the result of the design change and not their skill/quality issues, then yeah, we should probably stop. This video focuses more on actual bugs than on the other design flaws I've studied from them (at least until 35:00 or so when it starts really getting into design decisions), but I'd like to say that I truly appreciate your willingness to engage with it enough to clearly give your stance without making accusations or whatever, it is refreshing. I'd say two years to make the amount of content they did is pretty impressive considering they had to code/make art for all the tools needed for designers to make a more indepth pve experience. Bugs like the window drag glitch were never found because QA/coders/designers were in perpetual crunch making the pve content. That has nothing to do with their competence but has everything to do with suits and release dates. Likewise to you. Some of the folks on these forums make me laugh. yo they had no content in that game at launch. I was fighting the same mobs from the tutorial area as end game. The only interesting thing about that game was pvp and politics, everything else was dead boring and extremely basic. Areas, mobs, quest, everything is just copy pasted do to rushing it out. According to the art director for EQN it took their art team roughly 8 weeks (if the same person did everything) to take a basic critter creature (in the example given it was a bunny) from concept art to basic sculpture, to rigging to texture work to in game with 4 or so animations. This gets more and more complicated when you are adding weapon swings, unique abilities, and the like. Is NW or Ashes the same game as EQN, no. But assets frankly take a lot of time to make.
Mag7spy wrote: » lp KingDDD wrote: » Azherae wrote: » My point was that things are quick to add and the coding and design skill at Amazon, as well as Lumberyard itself, were not good enough to be used as a metric. In short, I would not use New World as a way to estimate how long anything takes to add to any MMO because they did not have the experience required to reach even average development time/quality of an AAA studio at any point during development. If you believe that the latter half of that video's issues, bugs, and design flaws are the result of the design change and not their skill/quality issues, then yeah, we should probably stop. This video focuses more on actual bugs than on the other design flaws I've studied from them (at least until 35:00 or so when it starts really getting into design decisions), but I'd like to say that I truly appreciate your willingness to engage with it enough to clearly give your stance without making accusations or whatever, it is refreshing. I'd say two years to make the amount of content they did is pretty impressive considering they had to code/make art for all the tools needed for designers to make a more indepth pve experience. Bugs like the window drag glitch were never found because QA/coders/designers were in perpetual crunch making the pve content. That has nothing to do with their competence but has everything to do with suits and release dates. Likewise to you. Some of the folks on these forums make me laugh. yo they had no content in that game at launch. I was fighting the same mobs from the tutorial area as end game. The only interesting thing about that game was pvp and politics, everything else was dead boring and extremely basic. Areas, mobs, quest, everything is just copy pasted do to rushing it out.
KingDDD wrote: » Azherae wrote: » My point was that things are quick to add and the coding and design skill at Amazon, as well as Lumberyard itself, were not good enough to be used as a metric. In short, I would not use New World as a way to estimate how long anything takes to add to any MMO because they did not have the experience required to reach even average development time/quality of an AAA studio at any point during development. If you believe that the latter half of that video's issues, bugs, and design flaws are the result of the design change and not their skill/quality issues, then yeah, we should probably stop. This video focuses more on actual bugs than on the other design flaws I've studied from them (at least until 35:00 or so when it starts really getting into design decisions), but I'd like to say that I truly appreciate your willingness to engage with it enough to clearly give your stance without making accusations or whatever, it is refreshing. I'd say two years to make the amount of content they did is pretty impressive considering they had to code/make art for all the tools needed for designers to make a more indepth pve experience. Bugs like the window drag glitch were never found because QA/coders/designers were in perpetual crunch making the pve content. That has nothing to do with their competence but has everything to do with suits and release dates. Likewise to you. Some of the folks on these forums make me laugh.
Azherae wrote: » My point was that things are quick to add and the coding and design skill at Amazon, as well as Lumberyard itself, were not good enough to be used as a metric. In short, I would not use New World as a way to estimate how long anything takes to add to any MMO because they did not have the experience required to reach even average development time/quality of an AAA studio at any point during development. If you believe that the latter half of that video's issues, bugs, and design flaws are the result of the design change and not their skill/quality issues, then yeah, we should probably stop. This video focuses more on actual bugs than on the other design flaws I've studied from them (at least until 35:00 or so when it starts really getting into design decisions), but I'd like to say that I truly appreciate your willingness to engage with it enough to clearly give your stance without making accusations or whatever, it is refreshing.
Fiddlez wrote: » I mean New World is doing fine, now at least. It's actually one of my favorites as far as atmosphere.
Fiddlez wrote: » You get caught up on the participation trophy side. Plus two different games can have fishing and only one will be good. Not to mention but those same systems also play off each other as well. The argument that similar games will nullify the other completely lacks any logic whatsoever. It avoids all creativity.
Fiddlez wrote: » I am not saying this game will be successful because it has open world PVP. I am saying it is attempting to create its own thing and open world PVP will most likely help it more then hurt it.
Fiddlez wrote: » If you told me Tarkov would be so popular it would create its own genre I would have called you crazy. Here we are though and I don't think anything out there that I've seen has much in common with AoC. Might have open world pvo, crafting, combat, housing etc but each of those obviously can all be different substantially
Dygz wrote: » Fiddlez wrote: » I mean New World is doing fine, now at least. It's actually one of my favorites as far as atmosphere. I didn't say New World wasn't doing fine. I said I don't consider Amazon to be a AAA game dev company. One successful MMO out of many attempts is still a horrible track record. I jump back into NW sometimes. It's a fairly fun game. I can play with PvP turned off, so... I will likely be jumping into NW way more often than I jump into Ashes, after Ashes launches. Fiddlez wrote: » You get caught up on the participation trophy side. Plus two different games can have fishing and only one will be good. Not to mention but those same systems also play off each other as well. The argument that similar games will nullify the other completely lacks any logic whatsoever. It avoids all creativity. I don't even really know what you're trying to say by "participation trophy side". But, I am a Casual Challenge player. "Participation trophy" seems to be a pejorative used by Hardcore Challenge players - similar to using "carebear" as a pejorative. I have no clue why you mention fishing. I have no clue how you, personally, determine something is good. What same systems are you talking about and why am I supposed to care if they play off each other? I haven't made the argument that similar games will nullify each other - and I agree that completely lacks any logic whatsoever as far as I can tell - I have no clue what you are even trying to say. Fiddlez wrote: » I am not saying this game will be successful because it has open world PVP. I am saying it is attempting to create its own thing and open world PVP will most likely help it more then hurt it. I agree. Especially since I never said that Open World PvP would hurt the game. I also never said that auto-flag Purple on the Open Seas would make the game unsuccessful. What I said is that it's a ruleset I won't play - and since all the servers share that ruleset - that means I won't be playing Ashes. And, I'm pretty sure it's going to alienate all the other MMORPG players who find non-consensual PvP to be distasteful. The gamers who loved, UO, EvE Online, ArcheAge and Lineage II should love playing Ashes. That's great! I expect them to have tons of fun in the Open Seas. Fiddlez wrote: » If you told me Tarkov would be so popular it would create its own genre I would have called you crazy. Here we are though and I don't think anything out there that I've seen has much in common with AoC. Might have open world pvo, crafting, combat, housing etc but each of those obviously can all be different substantially I dunno what that has to do with the price of tea in China, but...OOOKKAAAYYY.
Depraved wrote: » AAA company doesnt mean successful. you can make an AAA game that fails and no one wants to play. AAA means high budget, lots of employees, specialists, etc as opposed to an indie studio.
Mag7spy wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » lp KingDDD wrote: » Azherae wrote: » My point was that things are quick to add and the coding and design skill at Amazon, as well as Lumberyard itself, were not good enough to be used as a metric. In short, I would not use New World as a way to estimate how long anything takes to add to any MMO because they did not have the experience required to reach even average development time/quality of an AAA studio at any point during development. If you believe that the latter half of that video's issues, bugs, and design flaws are the result of the design change and not their skill/quality issues, then yeah, we should probably stop. This video focuses more on actual bugs than on the other design flaws I've studied from them (at least until 35:00 or so when it starts really getting into design decisions), but I'd like to say that I truly appreciate your willingness to engage with it enough to clearly give your stance without making accusations or whatever, it is refreshing. I'd say two years to make the amount of content they did is pretty impressive considering they had to code/make art for all the tools needed for designers to make a more indepth pve experience. Bugs like the window drag glitch were never found because QA/coders/designers were in perpetual crunch making the pve content. That has nothing to do with their competence but has everything to do with suits and release dates. Likewise to you. Some of the folks on these forums make me laugh. yo they had no content in that game at launch. I was fighting the same mobs from the tutorial area as end game. The only interesting thing about that game was pvp and politics, everything else was dead boring and extremely basic. Areas, mobs, quest, everything is just copy pasted do to rushing it out. According to the art director for EQN it took their art team roughly 8 weeks (if the same person did everything) to take a basic critter creature (in the example given it was a bunny) from concept art to basic sculpture, to rigging to texture work to in game with 4 or so animations. This gets more and more complicated when you are adding weapon swings, unique abilities, and the like. Is NW or Ashes the same game as EQN, no. But assets frankly take a lot of time to make. I'm a artist i know how work goes lmao. Doesnt change the fact there was no content and the same few mobs you could count on one or two hands were copy pasted, including those animations you are talking about on different races of mobs on top of it. So as an artist does that sound accurate? Did you find the number of models and animations in NW roughly applicable to what you'd expect of 2 years of development from a team of 20 or so? I'm guessing you mean 2 years before release of the game?
Dygz wrote: » Depraved wrote: » AAA company doesnt mean successful. you can make an AAA game that fails and no one wants to play. AAA means high budget, lots of employees, specialists, etc as opposed to an indie studio. Um... AAA and indie studio are not the only options. It's not that binary. And I would say that Amazon Games (and NW) is AA, at best. But, we don't have to agree. I don't think it really moves the original topic forward.
KingDDD wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » KingDDD wrote: » Mag7spy wrote: » lp KingDDD wrote: » Azherae wrote: » My point was that things are quick to add and the coding and design skill at Amazon, as well as Lumberyard itself, were not good enough to be used as a metric. In short, I would not use New World as a way to estimate how long anything takes to add to any MMO because they did not have the experience required to reach even average development time/quality of an AAA studio at any point during development. If you believe that the latter half of that video's issues, bugs, and design flaws are the result of the design change and not their skill/quality issues, then yeah, we should probably stop. This video focuses more on actual bugs than on the other design flaws I've studied from them (at least until 35:00 or so when it starts really getting into design decisions), but I'd like to say that I truly appreciate your willingness to engage with it enough to clearly give your stance without making accusations or whatever, it is refreshing. I'd say two years to make the amount of content they did is pretty impressive considering they had to code/make art for all the tools needed for designers to make a more indepth pve experience. Bugs like the window drag glitch were never found because QA/coders/designers were in perpetual crunch making the pve content. That has nothing to do with their competence but has everything to do with suits and release dates. Likewise to you. Some of the folks on these forums make me laugh. yo they had no content in that game at launch. I was fighting the same mobs from the tutorial area as end game. The only interesting thing about that game was pvp and politics, everything else was dead boring and extremely basic. Areas, mobs, quest, everything is just copy pasted do to rushing it out. According to the art director for EQN it took their art team roughly 8 weeks (if the same person did everything) to take a basic critter creature (in the example given it was a bunny) from concept art to basic sculpture, to rigging to texture work to in game with 4 or so animations. This gets more and more complicated when you are adding weapon swings, unique abilities, and the like. Is NW or Ashes the same game as EQN, no. But assets frankly take a lot of time to make. I'm a artist i know how work goes lmao. Doesnt change the fact there was no content and the same few mobs you could count on one or two hands were copy pasted, including those animations you are talking about on different races of mobs on top of it. So as an artist does that sound accurate? Did you find the number of models and animations in NW roughly applicable to what you'd expect of 2 years of development from a team of 20 or so? I'm guessing you mean 2 years before release of the game? Yes around two years previous to the launch in 2021, they decided to switch focus from an open pvp game to a standard pve mmo.
Ravicus wrote: » I wonder how the covid lockdowns affected game development. Intrepid is based in San Diego I believe. Was the team able to work remotely? Did they have to do the lockdowns there? I guess I do not know, but it could attribute to at least one year delay if not 2 years.
Fiddlez wrote: » "Participation Trophy" is a design philosophy difference. It is what you seem to be leaning heavily towards and assuming others want too. It's what I disagree with. It's the idea that if I spend my time playing a game that I should have the opportunity to have something or in other words a participation award. So that might not be first prize but I am always going to get rewards.
Fiddlez wrote: » You're experience with Open World PVP seems limited. You are still focusing on this aspect on it as this big hurdle. Really, only L2 , UO And AA had this type of system, might have been others but I wouldn't consider them relevant.
Fiddlez wrote: » I could be wrong there but not enough to invalidate my point. So basically this type of world or game design really hasn't been iterated or improved on very much. There's a reason that Intrepid is adding it. They are not creating a PVP or PVE game, they are creating a true MMORPG. Where the focus is on the world.
Dygz wrote: » I mean... I bought Crowfall.
Dygz wrote: » Ravicus wrote: » I wonder how the covid lockdowns affected game development. Intrepid is based in San Diego I believe. Was the team able to work remotely? Did they have to do the lockdowns there? I guess I do not know, but it could attribute to at least one year delay if not 2 years. Well... there was a lockdown. The team did work remotely. But... the game was supposed to release before 2020. And lockdowns happened after that. Alpha 1 was 2 years ago. After the lockdowns were over, but I think they IS devs were not back in the studio - maybe due to some renovation? Anyway, I was not expecting a 2-year gap between Alpha 1 and Alpha 2, but... The devs are making significant changes to the design and also moved from UE4 to UE5. I'm not sure what the "delay" in release schedule is intended to add to this discussion.
