AoC isn't as Niche as everyone thinks

So here's my take...

WoW Hardcore, Extraction Shooters, Survival, Classic WoW. We are definitely seeing a trend in what gamers want. Theme Park/Railroad content games are going the way of Guitar Hero.

Blizzard saw so much success with Classic and Hardcore they made them official.

Survival games,some if not most have come with hardcore rule sets,( dropping all gear, open PVP) Ark being one of the biggest had both of these. Now even Blizzard is jumping in although I suspect it will be a watered down for everyone experience.

Extraction shooters stemming from Tarkov's success(very hardcore style game) have started popping up everywhere.

If I know one thing it's when companies and investors start putting their money in to it you know the numbers are there in some fashion and they like what they see.

All I hear from everyone, Including Asmongold and other streamers is this is a niche game and it's not for everyone. Don While I don't disagree I think the degree of which they are implying is over stated, to the point that they think it might not be a very big game at all.

While it certainly won't be COD, I also think it's potential could be much higher then New World saw at its peak. Which would be considered a massive success.

I Understand that people don't want to get their hopes up and there's a lot of cynical people and deservedly so but if I am going to be real about it, the more I see the better it gets. It's like going from a narcissistic relationship to a healthy one, sometimes it just seems too good to be true but that's more about your past relationship then your current one. Just like that I think it's only fair we treat AoC and the devs with their fair shake. They have done nothing but be completely upfront and honest and currently in my eyes have the most integrity I have seen in a while and I have been around for a while.(I played UO and EQ1 a lot)

There is a lot to look forward to and don't let your past disappoints ruin your experience. Judge it on its own merits. Don't buy into the cynical majority and copy past the copium quotes. I might be disappointed, that's definitely a possibility but I am also ok with that. At least as far as I can tell they are putting their best foot forward and for now that's enough.

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Mag7spy

iccer wrote: »

JamesSunderland wrote: »

iccer wrote: »

It all depends what you consider a game developer to be.

Steven isn't directly creating the game by writing the code, or by designing systems, assets, or anything by himself. He has hired people to do that though.

If you consider someone to be a game dev just because they're telling people what to design/create, then sure, Steven is a game dev. I wouldn't agree with that definition though.

He's just a guy with a vision, and his team of game devs, and other people, are the ones who are making that vision a reality. Now he obviously knows a lot of stuff about game development, as he's been at it for 7+ years at this point, but just because he knows stuff about it, doesn't mean that he knows how to do it.

You see, the term "game developer" is quite a broad term that encompasses a multitude of different roles and functions in game development and not just coders/designers as you seems to think, but your are free to maintain your assumptions or disagree with that.

Guess what is also a direct role/fuction in game development? Creative Director, pretty much the brain guiding the body of the game development team alongside Lead Game Designer towards the game as whole.

Here, let me give you some examples of game developer fuctions:

https://www.coursera.org/articles/game-developer
Develop new ideas for game design
Translate visual ideas into code
Prototype, iterate, and polish gameplay
Collaborate with designers, producers, artists, and quality analysts
Monitor game stability across platforms
Review existing code and recommend improvements
Port games or elements from one system to another

Saw any that reminds you of the Creative Director role?

If you would've read the link you quoted, you would understand that he is not something superficial like "just a guy with a vision".

I know a lot of stuff about cooking, it doesn't mean I'm a chef nor a great cook at that.

That's just a basic false equivalence fallacy.

Game dev is someone that does most of those things, or at least a few.
- Develop new ideas for game design - I think Steven does that, but so do the devs. Can't really say he's a dev though.
- Translate visual ideas into code - Steven doesn't do that
- Prototype, iterate, and polish gameplay - Steven doesn't do that
- Collaborate with designers, producers, artists, and quality analysts - I mean I'm sure he does that, but that doesn't mean he's a dev just because he 'collaborates' with them.
- Monitor game stability across platforms - I'm sure that's done by a dedicated team of people, and not Steven. Though again, you could argue he does monitor it, because his team will provide him with information about it.
- Review existing code and recommend improvements - Again, not something he does.
- Port games or elements from one system to another - Again, he might suggest the devs add x to y, but he doesn't do it himself, he himself doesn't port anything.

Those bolded points are what someone would consider a dev to be. Other 2 are just extras that could be applied to anything.

He's a creative director, a game designer if you will. What he is not is a game dev, who builds the game (programming systems, coding in general, creating graphics, animations, etc.). His role is really important, and you can't just have a bunch of devs and expect a great game, you also need someone to lead them and direct them, which is why he's a creative DIRECTOR.

"A creative director is a person who makes high-level creative decisions; oversees the creation of creative assets such as advertisements, products, events, or logos; and directs & translates the creative peoples whom produce the end results." - Here's what wiki considers a creative director to be. He oversees the creation, but he doesn't create, he makes creative decisions, but he doesn't create. Devs are the creators of the game.

Btw this whole discussion is stupid and pointless.

This game is so bad it shows you are so out of touch. Effectively you could use this and say a ton of the industry are not developers...

Honestly if you aren't even in the industry you shouldn't' be saying who is a developer and who isn't you are not equipped for this discussion that should be baseline atleast.

Like legit out here giving a game programming dev list on who is a game developer.

Mag7spy

Liniker wrote: »

I just disengaged from the conversation because this is literally the definition of stupidity

this is the reason why intrepid should completely ignore or just delete 90% of the feedback they get

OP about AoC being niche and low IQ people arguing the game's creative director for 6 years and lead game designer for the past 2 years isn't game developer because he doesn't code

oh dear god

Least triple post, this is why nooani is a problem on the forum and the kind of toxic elements he is spreading over time. Little by little misinformation since going to extreme lengths at the start would just get him the ban.

Fiddlez

Liniker wrote: »

I just disengaged from the conversation because this is literally the definition of stupidity

this is the reason why intrepid should completely ignore or just delete 90% of the feedback they get

OP about AoC being niche and low IQ people arguing the game's creative director for 6 years and lead game designer for the past 2 years isn't game developer because he doesn't code

oh dear god

If anyone thinks Steven hasn't put in a ton of work and doesn't influence the game in a large way then you may need to just sit down and chill. I can tell you right now that in this day and age he is the most important person.

Kotaku had a good article on Anthem and the development process and woes, it's a good read for perspective. Infact in every game you play hardly anyone is blaming the developer. The guy coding Blizzard games is not the reason it has a Battle Pass, he just helps develop it because that's his job. Not sure why anyone thinks that being a developer or not somehow disqualifies Steven. We aren't asking him how to code, we are asking about the direction of the game of which he is directly in charge of.

Really though anyone who is part of game development could be a developer, what everyone seems to be arguing is semantics. Whether he is or isn't a game developer has no relevance on anything. If you think he is great, if not, cool. How does that benefit anything?

I will say this again to make it easier and hopefully save people some time.The entire conversation rooted from whether or not " participation trophy" was a valid term from Steven. He is the creative director and CEO. Participation Trophy is a philosophical view point on what adds the experience.

Just because you play it doesn't mean you will get everything in the game, some things will be out of reach no matter how much you play. Flying Mounts and Freeholds are examples. Apartments would be the everyone gets one feature, just play and it will eventually become yours. That there should be some things in the game that are hard to get for anyone is and should be the discussion.

If you want to be cynical and negative, fine but stop pretending like you need to be cynical/negative to be reasonable or logical. It's a common theme and it's tiring.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Are we going to argue bioware aren't developers then? Or any other studio that has issues....

I'm not arguing that Intrepid doesn't have developers. I'm arguing that Steven isn't one.

Mag7spy wrote: »

He is the creative director, you can simply argue him having like 5 years experience is not enough (or more so the start of his career in development)

Yes, and he bought himself that place with his money. I guess I could say that I'm a creative director too. I just lack the money to prove that. I've got a shitton of ideas for several games though. And I've posted some of my "designs" on this very forum as well. Who's here ready to be one of my developers and make mmos great again?

Mag7spy wrote: »

People our here really want to insult

No insult was intended. All I'm saying (and I assume Noaani as well) is that Steven doesn't fit this definition.

He fits the definition of an owner of a development company though. And so far I like what his company is doing and majority of their actions are directed by him. But he has not "developed" anything.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Also the point about him having money is kind of stupid, if we are talking high quality looking games, someone always has money it is one of the most important things...It doesn't get made for free. The bigger the project the higher the cost and risk.

Bobby Kotick has the money to run Blizz. Do you consider him a game developer as well? I'm sure he has overseen countless projects by this point.

Fuck, I just checked and it turns out that Bobby at one point developed software for Apple 2. He is literally more of a "dev" than Steven, even though Bob is much more of a businessman than Steven is (that is in the context of their relationship to their respective companies and goals).

Dygz

Um. It's not really about what Steven's title is.
Couple days ago, I reviewed a video from 2018, where the IS dev panel was asked about how they planned to support Casuals.
Akil mentions Bartle's concepts of player styles/interests and that he and Jeffrey frequently discuss what they can do to support a variety of playstyles. How will x affect Casuals? How will it affect Explorers?
I have the confidence they have enough experience designing for these diverse groups that they have reasonable understandings of how to adequately support them.
I have 0 confidence that Steven as enough experience to design for any playstyle except his own.
And I've been skeptical about that since year one, when he would provide bizarre answers for how he plans to support RPers. "Yes. Ashes will have support for RPers in Taverns."
And the RPers are all, "WTF does that mean??" I'm still looking for the clip from a dev stream where Steven tried to answer a similar question. "Yes. Of course, Ashes will have /emotes for RPers." Margaret had to retranslate the question for him, "I think the question is really asking this...?"

Again, Steven is going to do a great job ensuring that Ashes is a game he would love to play.
And it will be awesome for gamers with his playstyle. He has hired veteran MMORPGs devs who can help him accomplish that. And he is a brilliant business manager - he seems to be very capable of generating funds to continue the project. His employees love working at the studio.
But, again, he's a gamer who has the funds to get experienced game devs to build the game he would love to play.
Kind of like of like Curt Shilling did with 38 Studios and Kingdoms of Amalur. He's just better at managing funds than Curt was.

But, you know... when Steven kept saying that Ashes would release before 2020...
Any experienced game dev was saying..."Uh.... if you say so, but... that seems highly unlikely. I guess it's not impossible, but..."
He's hired a great team of game devs who should be able to help him achieve his vision. That's all that truly matters.

Part of the fun of the dev streams when Jeffery was around was watching Jeffery's face when Steven would wax poetic about where he hopes to take the game. You could see it written all over his face, "Wait. Now you want us to do what? And the game is supposed to release when???"

Ludullu

Fiddlez wrote: »

what everyone seems to be arguing is semantics.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Are we going to argue bioware aren't developers then? Or any other studio that has issues....

I'm not arguing that Intrepid doesn't have developers. I'm arguing that Steven isn't one.

Mag7spy wrote: »

He is the creative director, you can simply argue him having like 5 years experience is not enough (or more so the start of his career in development)

Yes, and he bought himself that place with his money. I guess I could say that I'm a creative director too. I just lack the money to prove that. I've got a shitton of ideas for several games though. And I've posted some of my "designs" on this very forum as well. Who's here ready to be one of my developers and make mmos great again?

Mag7spy wrote: »

People our here really want to insult

No insult was intended. All I'm saying (and I assume Noaani as well) is that Steven doesn't fit this definition.

He fits the definition of an owner of a development company though. And so far I like what his company is doing and majority of their actions are directed by him. But he has not "developed" anything.

Mag7spy wrote: »

Also the point about him having money is kind of stupid, if we are talking high quality looking games, someone always has money it is one of the most important things...It doesn't get made for free. The bigger the project the higher the cost and risk.

Bobby Kotick has the money to run Blizz. Do you consider him a game developer as well? I'm sure he has overseen countless projects by this point.

Fuck, I just checked and it turns out that Bobby at one point developed software for Apple 2. He is literally more of a "dev" than Steven, even though Bob is much more of a businessman than Steven is (that is in the context of their relationship to their respective companies and goals).

1.Steven is a developer, he has been working on the game for an extended period of time as a creative director. Trying to argue anything else at this point is actually silly, if someone has a job that is their job at the end of the day. All you can argue is experience at that point and say the product won't be on par with other top mmorpg because he lacks experience. Being up to him to prove you wrong.

2. Money does wonders for a lot of people, if you have money there is less chance people will ignore and you can create chances where a normal person wouldn't have that opportunity. End of that day that is life, life is not fair. If you have the money and put yourself in the position and do the work over the years to grow as a developer as well as show your product to people you to would be a creative director.

The reality is though he has far more experience than you and has been working on the project for many years, all that equals to experience. Again not as much experience as others but you can't say all the years he has spent on the game meant nothing. He is a developer in contrast on what you want to believe.

Yet at the same time it is funny because there is a lot of contradiction going here, as some people like to complain (without knowing the full picture of their development) And blame everything on Steven. If you are going to complain about his direction or approach in development, than by default you are already saying he is a developer else he would not have any impact if he was not. The complaining would have to go towards the other members of the teams and not focused as if it was the fault of one person.

Being in the industry even if I'm focused on movies at the moment, I'm getting a wiki thrown in my face -sighs- He fits the description, you are going to notice how it says etc there. Development is a large process, between art, design and programming and key word ETC. There are other roles as well and even between those roles based on the size of the studio it can be broken down further. His role as a creative director in a large company with many employees is not sitting down doing all the art, programming, design, etc himself. It is about directing the creative vision of the whole project between he different departments artist direction, gameplay, marketing, design, team collaboration, etc.

Again if you are not in the industry at the very least no one should be saying who is not a developer. You are not equipped for the discussion. Back in the day when we were all children how much experience do you think people had making games, everything was learning and growing trying to put things together and fueled with a lot of passion. Not being in the industry and trying to tell people that are working in the industry they aren't a developer unless they have 10+ years of experience is actual non sense.

3. What is this argument you are even using with Bobby, you are reaching for no reason to what, discredit someone?

The answer is simply if Bobby is working on a creative director position or something to do with the development of the game sure he is. You are free to look up his past and see what he did in terms with games if he worked on any projects.

Steven is working on a project and actively showing it. You don't realize you are being influenced by some ones negative (noaani) aspects and I can confirm you most definitely are. You very well might not realize it or want to believe it. There is no reason to be having a conversation like this making a ton of bad points over someone that has spent like 6+ years working on development. Dealing with challenges, their inexperience, learning and growing along the way. Someone that clearly has the passion for development which is what leads to great games int he first place, something that was lost do to the importance of money.

End of the day you look at the project and see what it brings, the growth of the studio, the talent they take, the products they produce, the concept of the game, the reception of peoples engagement with it, is it growing or is it dying.

If you view any of the above as positive indication that can be attributed to IS it means the direction of the product, management, etc are doing well and that should speak for itself and there for Steven is doing his job well enough at this point.

If you think everything is bad and negative, there is no reason to follow or be interested in, people are being let go, no good talent is coming, nothing looks good product wise, or any other negative points, You can say the creative direction is going in a bad way.

Based on interest alone without any true marketing and it only being early game play I'd say their direction is going very positive speaking well on their creative direction....

This post was too large but honestly just seeing things like this with all the work I know goes into things, irks me in the worse ways...So much passion and care going into the game from all their developers than people trying to say things like this lol.

KingDDD

You know it's a slow day when people are arguing semantics. The weird cult like status of Steven is hilarious though, I do wonder if he'll get his own Netflix "documentary" soon.

Fiddlez

NiKr wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Are we going to argue bioware aren't developers then? Or any other studio that has issues....

I'm not arguing that Intrepid doesn't have developers. I'm arguing that Steven isn't one.

Your own wikipedia post discredits what you are trying to say you know. The second sentence is a counter argument to how you feel, basically anyone part of the process could be considered a video game developer

Also, Bobby isn't an Owner or Creative director. He is someone who answers to shareholders essentially and considering there's no shareholders at Intrepid it's not even close to the same thing.

People can argue or point out mistakes Steven has made all they want. I can give you 10000 examples of long time developers who have made the same mistakes and worse that Steven has. Has everyone here suddenly forgot the state of modern gaming? The drama around Redfall, Starfield, Cyberpunk and all the bad PC ports? Etc

Stupid aggressive and too early of a launch date? You don't say!!? A very unspecific or strange description of support for RP players In taverns while trying to create an transparent development cycle!?!! Holy shit what a noob!

Seriously, understand when you are just being cynical and arop trying to convince us it's anything but your feelings.

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Again if you are not in the industry at the very least no one should be saying who is not a developer. You are not equipped for the discussion.

Guess only Dygz and Azherae are equipped for it then (dunno if we have other people in the industry here).

Fiddlez wrote: »

Your own wikipedia post discredits what you are trying to say you know. The second sentence is a counter argument to how you feel, basically anyone part of the process could be considered a video game developer

Does it though? It says that it's either a solo developer (who directly creates stuff for the game) or just the company itself (and I already said that Intrepid is in fact a dev studio).

If we count everyone employed for a dev company a game dev then I guess the secretaries and janitors are devs too, cause they directly influence the company's environment, make it more positive and lead to a more successful development.

Liniker

https://youtu.be/-QPcjVFHm2A

Raven016

Dygz wrote: »

Again, Steven is going to do a great job ensuring that Ashes is a game he would love to play.
And it will be awesome for gamers with his playstyle. He has hired veteran MMORPGs devs who can help him accomplish that. And he is a brilliant business manager - he seems to be very capable of generating funds to continue the project.

So he actually spends time on another bussiness too?
What kind of bussiness?
Maybe he has little time for AoC?

Fiddlez

Fiddlez wrote: »

Your own wikipedia post discredits what you are trying to say you know. The second sentence is a counter argument to how you feel, basically anyone part of the process could be considered a video game developer

Does it though? It says that it's either a solo developer (who directly creates stuff for the game) or just the company itself (and I already said that Intrepid is in fact a dev studio).

If we count everyone employed for a dev company a game dev then I guess the secretaries and janitors are devs too, cause they directly influence the company's environment, make it more positive and lead to a more successful development.

Yes. The process and related disciplines

Raven016

Actually @Vaknar is the most important person because he compiles to Steven what we post here.
I hope my suggestions are not censored

JamesSunderland

iccer wrote: »

Btw this whole discussion is stupid and pointless.

Yep definitely, reading your post made it even more clear, predictable negligence of reality for personal opinion. Truly meaningless.

Abarat

Liniker wrote: »

I just disengaged from the conversation because this is literally the definition of stupidity

this is the reason why intrepid should completely ignore or just delete 90% of the feedback they get

OP about AoC being niche and low IQ people arguing the game's creative director for 6 years and lead game designer for the past 2 years isn't game developer because he doesn't code

oh dear god

i feel like the forums have become meaningless.

Ayeveegaming1

Abarat wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

I just disengaged from the conversation because this is literally the definition of stupidity

this is the reason why intrepid should completely ignore or just delete 90% of the feedback they get

OP about AoC being niche and low IQ people arguing the game's creative director for 6 years and lead game designer for the past 2 years isn't game developer because he doesn't code

oh dear god

i feel like the forums have become meaningless.

It is def kind of crazy. So many threads that say the same thing. So many people just spewing crap off topic. I am not a fan of overmoderation but I think they could use a little crowd control about now.

Raven016

Abarat wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

I just disengaged from the conversation because this is literally the definition of stupidity

this is the reason why intrepid should completely ignore or just delete 90% of the feedback they get

OP about AoC being niche and low IQ people arguing the game's creative director for 6 years and lead game designer for the past 2 years isn't game developer because he doesn't code

oh dear god

i feel like the forums have become meaningless.

We should be able to loot the likes when we win debates!

Percimes

Raven016 wrote: »

Abarat wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

I just disengaged from the conversation because this is literally the definition of stupidity

this is the reason why intrepid should completely ignore or just delete 90% of the feedback they get

OP about AoC being niche and low IQ people arguing the game's creative director for 6 years and lead game designer for the past 2 years isn't game developer because he doesn't code

oh dear god

i feel like the forums have become meaningless.

We should be able to loot the likes when we win debates!

Pfft! People would ask for full loot debates!

Fiddlez

EverQuest Next, please tell me more on how experience is the determining factor. We have a Massive Industry of game developers but seemingly limited innovation. I seriously doubt that's because of develops too. 38 Studios made a popular game and I bought the remastered version, financially ruined or not.

Anyone remember Ultima Online 2? Richard Garriots failed SoTA? Redfall? You can make lots of arguments as to why they all failed but they were all lead by people with experience in the industry.

All I am seeing is very cynical people with a desire to see the project fail. Who deal in absolutes and have 0 foresight. Unwilling to accept, whether it's ego or they feel threatened, can't accept that this guy might do the job better and having experience in the industry might help him more then hurt him.

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