AoC isn't as Niche as everyone thinks

So here's my take...

WoW Hardcore, Extraction Shooters, Survival, Classic WoW. We are definitely seeing a trend in what gamers want. Theme Park/Railroad content games are going the way of Guitar Hero.

Blizzard saw so much success with Classic and Hardcore they made them official.

Survival games,some if not most have come with hardcore rule sets,( dropping all gear, open PVP) Ark being one of the biggest had both of these. Now even Blizzard is jumping in although I suspect it will be a watered down for everyone experience.

Extraction shooters stemming from Tarkov's success(very hardcore style game) have started popping up everywhere.

If I know one thing it's when companies and investors start putting their money in to it you know the numbers are there in some fashion and they like what they see.

All I hear from everyone, Including Asmongold and other streamers is this is a niche game and it's not for everyone. Don While I don't disagree I think the degree of which they are implying is over stated, to the point that they think it might not be a very big game at all.

While it certainly won't be COD, I also think it's potential could be much higher then New World saw at its peak. Which would be considered a massive success.

I Understand that people don't want to get their hopes up and there's a lot of cynical people and deservedly so but if I am going to be real about it, the more I see the better it gets. It's like going from a narcissistic relationship to a healthy one, sometimes it just seems too good to be true but that's more about your past relationship then your current one. Just like that I think it's only fair we treat AoC and the devs with their fair shake. They have done nothing but be completely upfront and honest and currently in my eyes have the most integrity I have seen in a while and I have been around for a while.(I played UO and EQ1 a lot)

There is a lot to look forward to and don't let your past disappoints ruin your experience. Judge it on its own merits. Don't buy into the cynical majority and copy past the copium quotes. I might be disappointed, that's definitely a possibility but I am also ok with that. At least as far as I can tell they are putting their best foot forward and for now that's enough.

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Ayeveegaming1

I think AoC is more focused on player interaction and building relationships with people. Investing time and work into building things, working together to defend and take freeholds. Becoming emotionally invested.
Most games today are based on the dopamine rush. The instant flashy graphics and leaderboards. The focus on individual stats.
AoC in my opinion will take a lot of effort in game to reach the pinnacle of the game, and great group coordination to keep it. So I do not think AoC is targeting the audience of first person shooters or games that cater to solo play. I would not discourage solo play in AoC but I do think it would be very hard to do with any great expectations. For RP and stuff like that I think it could be great, and personally am looking forward to the storyline as to flesh out a character I want to build.
Looking forward to alpha 2 we will get more of a feel of how the world works and maybe see what features that are actually playable.

KingDDD

@Dygz

When you say challenge do you mean an artificial challenge-one you create through your own means? This seems like an incredibly difficult playstyle to make content for as there is a wide range of statistical possibilities for players entering said content.

For example, you say your EQ 2 character used starter rags. I'm assuming you used that gear because of RP/personal reasons. Other players probably had better gear which negated content you found challenging specifically because of a vertical gear progression.

Dygz

CROW3 wrote: »

All pejoratives aside, I think the question is how you approach rewards being meaningful for proportionate effort. Right?

I don’t think that’s a niche concept. WoW raiders and rated pvpers have had a chip on their shoulder for over a decade about ‘welfare epics,’ even when their efforts rewarded them with higher tier purples.

Actually? No.
The context Steven was using "participation trophy" most recently was with regard to Freeholds.
In his view not everyone should get a Freehold eventually just for playing the game.
(He also has reaching Grandmaster Crafting gated behind access to a Freehold - so, you don't necessarily reach max level Crafter eventually just by focusing on Crafting stuff.)

With regard to Freeholds. I don't necessarily have a side.
Housing has kind of been rather low on the list of features I contemplate.
The basics are:
There's tons of instanced Apartments pretty much anyone can obtain.
There's in-Node, Open World Houses that a bunch of citizens can own.
And there's Freeholds, that some people can own.

When I think about housing, it's usually with regard to the in-Node Housing.
I egotistically imagine I will be among the first citizens to found the TheoryForge Node and will be able to grab an in-Node House close to the time they become available. Then I think about visiting and befriending the other Citizens who own in-Node Houses and play at the same time I play. (I would do that regardless of whether I actually own a House.) Instead of using LFG to find players to group with, I would prefer to actually visit the Houses in the Node and interact with the people who I'm helping build and defend the Node.
When I think of Freeholds, I typically just think about helping Fantmx run his Farm Freehold.

Steven mentioned the concept of Scarcity being a key aspect of Risk v Reward and the notion that no everyone should get a "participation trophy".
All the Citizens of a Node do not get to own an in-Node House just for logging into the game.
Everyone does not get to plop down a Freehold just for logging into the game.
There is not enough space in the game for that.
So... in that sense I am not on a "participation trophy side" advocating for all players to be able to plop down a Freehold.

I think I have bit of an issue with max Crafter being gated by access to a Freehold.
I stopped being interested in what happens with Freeholds the moment The Open Seas was revealed.
Especially since I won't be trying to max Crafting after launch.
I think I do believe that Crafters should not have to break down Freehold gates to reach max Crafter. And that yes, if you focus on pursuing a Profession, you should eventually be able to hit max. Just as I would not expect owning a House to be a gate for reaching max Primary Archetype Level.
My gut reaction is I don't particularly like that you can only reach Journeyman Crafter if you don't have a access to a Freehold, but I haven't given it enough thought and I don't know enough about how it will feel to be on a "side".

On the other hand, I have bought a few Freehold skins.
In those cases, I was just looking at what cool-looking stuff was available for purchase and thought, "Oh! That would be a cool skin to have over my dwelling."
I wasn't thinking about scarcity.
From that avenue of thinking, yes, when I made the purchases, I was in the mode of thinking I could fairly easily use any cosmetic I purchase.
I expect to be able to obtain gear and a Caravan and pets and mounts relatively easily just by logging into the game. I would fall into the "participation trophy side" there, I guess. I don't know why Risk v Reward would be gating me from access to those things.
And from the purchasing cosmetics avenue - when I was looking at cool skins - it was with the expectation that when I wanted a Freehold I would be able to have one. But, Steven set that expectation by including Freeholds in the Cosmetics store.
So... with that in mind, yeah, I think it's pretty shitty that Freeholds are as gated as they are.
Or maybe I think it's pretty shitty that Freehold skins are available for purchase in the Cosmetics shop as if everyone who owns Freehold skins would be able to use them as easily as those who own pet skins or mount skins or Caravan skins.

Dygz

KingDDD wrote: »

When you say challenge do you mean an artificial challenge-one you create through your own means? This seems like an incredibly difficult playstyle to make content for as there is a wide range of statistical possibilities for players entering said content.

For example, you say your EQ 2 character used starter rags. I'm assuming you used that gear because of RP/personal reasons.

I mean that I'm not seeking competition and adrenaline rush and high risk. I'm never going to be motivated by stealing loot from other players. I'm not seeking the thrill of battle with other players.
Since I'm not trying to be a top end raider and I'm not trying to complete mythic dungeons, I don't need uber gear. I'm not necessarily racing to "beat the game" as fast as possible.
My top priority is usually uncovering the map - I'm happy to spend hours just swimming around continents.
Each time I level, I typically try to gain as much xp as I can from Exploration.
And, I'm usually maximizing Stealth to avoid combat.
I would prefer to be Healing the world, rather than killing everything in sight. And, I'm not really motivated by Risk v Reward.
If I am seeking combat, mobs and NPCs are about the highest degree of Challenge I'm interested because mobs and NPCs are designed to be reasonably predictable. And if I'm seeking combat, it's probably due to some quest. Even though I would prefer to have quests that I can complete via Diplomacy rather than combat.
Unfortunately, those quests are rare in MMORPGs.
Gamers are too tenacious, ruthless and greedy for me to be interested in competing with them for long.
In TT D&D, I typically use CHA skills to avoid combat as much as possible.

Also, I typically have a few alts doing the Carebear Challenge of reaching max level just by Harvesting/Crafting.
You have to reach max level with 0 kills.
I am Fashion over Function, so before transmogs were a thing, upgrades would have to fit my fashion appearance restrictions for that particular character. I would never just plop on whatever piece of gear gave me the highest gear score.

Yes, that means that I would probably be fighting mobs slightly below my Level rather than slightly above my Level. So my progression to max would take longer, but, I am Hardcore Time/Casual Challenge, so... that's not an issue for me.

Why would it be difficult to make content that is Casual Challenge?

KingDDD wrote: »

Other players probably had better gear which negated content you found challenging specifically because of a vertical gear progression.

I don't understand what you mean.
How would the gear of other players negate content?

KingDDD

Dygz wrote: »

KingDDD wrote: »

When you say challenge do you mean an artificial challenge-one you create through your own means? This seems like an incredibly difficult playstyle to make content for as there is a wide range of statistical possibilities for players entering said content.

For example, you say your EQ 2 character used starter rags. I'm assuming you used that gear because of RP/personal reasons.

I mean that I'm not seeking competition and adrenaline rush and high risk. I'm never going to be motivated by stealing loot from other players. I'm not seeking the thrill of battle with other players.
Since I'm not trying to be a top end raider and I'm not trying to complete mythic dungeons, I don't need uber gear. I'm not necessarily racing to "beat the game" as fast as possible.
My top priority is usually uncovering the map - I'm happy to spend hours just swimming around continents.
Each time I level, I typically try to gain as much xp as I can from Exploration.
And, I'm usually maximizing Stealth to avoid combat.
I would prefer to be Healing the world, rather than killing everything in sight. And, I'm not really motivated by Risk v Reward.
If I am seeking combat, mobs and NPCs are about the highest degree of Challenge I'm interested because mobs and NPCs are designed to be reasonably predictable. And if I'm seeking combat, it's probably due to some quest. Even though I would prefer to have quests that I can complete via Diplomacy rather than combat.
Unfortunately, those quests are rare in MMORPGs.
Gamers are too tenacious, ruthless and greedy for me to be interested in competing with them for long.
In TT D&D, I typically use CHA skills to avoid combat as much as possible.

Also, I typically have a few alts doing the Carebear Challenge of reaching max level just by Harvesting/Crafting.
You have to reach max level with 0 kills.
I am Fashion over Function, so before transmogs were a thing, upgrades would have to fit my fashion appearance restrictions for that particular character. I would never just plop on whatever piece of gear gave me the highest gear score.

Yes, that means that I would probably be fighting mobs slightly below my Level rather than slightly above my Level. So my progression to max would take longer, but, I am Hardcore Time/Casual Challenge, so... that's not an issue for me.

Why would it be difficult to make content that is Casual Challenge?

KingDDD wrote: »

Other players probably had better gear which negated content you found challenging specifically because of a vertical gear progression.

I don't understand what you mean.
How would the gear of other players negate content?

Content has to be designed where players have an intended damage output. If you choose to use a 1 dps sword because you like it, and I use a 10 dps sword because its meta, then we are unable to do the same content at its intended difficulty. The world is either a cakewalk for me and fun challenge for you, or the world is mathematically undoable for you and just right for me. By choosing not to participate in vertical progression you are giving designers an unwinnable scenario.

At the end of the day, I believe these two play styles existing in the world form a symbiotic relationship. Any content implemented for you is a net gain for me and vice versa. If both players in the above scenario are happy (and paying) then we'll see a larger game with more content for both of us. Metas definitely destroy the fun of rping and the feel of the world, I guess I'm asking for your thoughts on how devs can appeal to both players while simultaneously not invalidating the playstyle of either of them.

Dygz

I mean... in this case, my weapons were upgraded, so we would be doing the same damage.
Also meta is irrelevant. You never have to use the most efficient tactics available. You just have to find a way to defeat the challenge. Which I am able to do. I might be at a higher level when I defeat that content than you were when you defeated the content.

The devs don't have to design different content for us in this scenario.
Mathematically undoable is hyperbole and not really a thing.
All of the content in an RPG does not have to be about damage.
Again, WoW has the Carebear Challenge - reaching max level with 0 kills.
The devs don't have to create different content. It just means I would reach max Level via Crafting - and it would take more hours for me to Level than you, but - I play 8 hours per day, so we might hit max Level in the same number of days.

So... I really have no clue what you are talking about because it is not any kind of problem at all.

I would say that it just depends on how PvP-centric the devs want to push things and how Hardcore Challenge the devs want to push things. Steven should just go with what he likes.
I don't have to play the same game as you. I don't have to play the same game as Steven.
I already know that I never want to play on the same server(s) as Steven because he is way too Hardcore Challenge than I am. I'm not obsessed with the thrill of adrenaline.
And, you know, I am not at all interested in contemplating economic warfare when I'm choosing which bag to take with me to pick some flowers.
The Ashes devs don't have to design content for the both of us.
I'm happy for them to design content just for you. I just wish Steven had been better at communicating that when I point blank asked him about it in 2018.

acki02

Dygz wrote: »

(He also has reaching Grandmaster Crafting gated behind access to a Freehold - so, you don't necessarily reach max level Crafter eventually just by focusing on Crafting stuff.)

Where did you pull that one from??

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