Balancing ranged vs melee

MMOs have historically had a tough time balancing ranged and melee dps because of the inherent advantages that ranged have. They can attack sooner, have better target uptime, have to move less, can spread out to minimize directionals, and even use the environment to make themselves difficult to attack.

I thought it would be a fun discussion to hear what some of you would like to see in Ashes in an effort to keep both dps types viable and desirable. These are some of the things I've seen games do to varying degrees of success:

-making melee much tankier than ranged through better armor, better defensive cooldowns, or more health

-making melee so mobile that uptime is rarely interrupted

-giving melee some decent ranged attacks to use when they can't be on target

-giving melee DOT effects to counter the lost uptime

-making melee damage profiles very bursty to lessen the loss from movement

-making melee just do more damage assuming some of the damage will be lost from movement

-giving melee strong party buffs (not likely with a bard class around)

-giving melee a number of status ailments like slows, stuns, etc

-making ranged so immobile that when they do have to move it hurts them a lot

So, what types of things have have y'all seen that did or didn't work? What would you do?

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Pyrolol

CROW3 wrote: »

I can’t remember, will trees act as cover to ranged?

In the reveal video, some spells were able to slightly curve around obstacles including rocks/trees however hard LOSing (line of sighting) will not from what i watched anyway

Voeltz

Melee focused classes should have:
-Better access to CC including hard CCs
-More gap closers/speed buffs, maybe some attacks that are gap closers or have incorporated movement
-More durability, whether that be higher base stats or from defensives skills

Pyrolol

Voeltz wrote: »

Melee focused classes should have:
-Better access to CC including hard CCs
-More gap closers/speed buffs, maybe some attacks that are gap closers or have incorporated movement
-More durability, whether that be higher base stats or from defensives skills

Becomes too braindead though, atleast keep it skill dependent to keep on top of ranged classes

Shabooey

In the reveal video, some spells were able to slightly curve around obstacles including rocks/trees however hard LOSing (line of sighting) will not from what i watched anyway

I thought about this when I watched it, I hope there is some LOS, don't think it would be very balanced if range can just spam attacks even if you're behind cover. But don't think it will work like that will it?

If they get their attack off when you're in the open and then move round cover I'm alright with the skill hitting you.

Raven016

CROW3 wrote: »

I can’t remember, will trees act as cover to ranged?

I would like that.

Pyrolol

Shabooey wrote: »

In the reveal video, some spells were able to slightly curve around obstacles including rocks/trees however hard LOSing (line of sighting) will not from what i watched anyway

I thought about this when I watched it, I hope there is some LOS, don't think it would be very balanced if range can just spam attacks even if you're behind cover. But don't think it will work like that will it?

If they get their attack off when you're in the open and then move round cover I'm alright with the skill hitting you.

In the reveal video like i wrote, it curved when it was a slight LOS
When Steve moved his character to the point where he couldn’t see the enemy it didn’t work
And had to move away from the rock
So yes, safe to there will be LOS

Reckful the line of site God

hleV

A melee class that's worse than ranged class is useless. A ranged class that's worse than melee class still has the range advantage. The melee class should always be prioritized when seeking to balance the two.

Shabooey

@Pyrolol ahh thank you for this, much appreciated info!

Rocsek

As a few others have said, all classes can use use all weapons and armors. It wont surprise me if all classes have things they can spec into. Now will they spec into it will be the question. All weapons have skill trees and players have skill trees, SO it should be interesting to see the combos people come up with.

Dygz

CROW3 wrote: »

I can’t remember, will trees act as cover to ranged?

Depends on if it's an action or tab target Active Skill.

Ludullu

CROW3 wrote: »

I can’t remember, will trees act as cover to ranged?

Would definitely prefer if they did. No matter if tab or action. This would most likely require a "dmg check at the end of the cast" instead of at the beginning though and I dunno which one Intrepid want to use.

CROW3

NiKr wrote: »

Would definitely prefer if they did. No matter if tab or action.

Agreed. It would encourage strategic thinking about how to use the environment to your advantage. This was well done in MO2, where you could retreat into a forest to disadvantage mounted and archer specs then take them down in melee.

It would also make someone think twice before crossing a big open field or skylining themselves.

hleV wrote: »

A ranged class that's worse than melee class still has the range advantage.

Not when ranged weapons have a minimum distance. Another reason to have the environment usable for cover.

Shabooey

If there isn't some sort of LoS and you're defending in a siege you lose some of the advantage of the walls. Wouldn't particularly like it if a player can tab target you and just hit you regardless of what's in front of you.

I agree with @CROW3, I really like it when you need some strategic thinking in PvP, I think it makes it more meaningful.

Dygz

And then you're moving the game even more away from RPG.

Depraved

what is an rpg? what is a roleplaying game?

Azherae

Depraved wrote: »

what is an rpg? what is a roleplaying game?

It's not a MOBA.

Yeah I know you're poking to have a semantic argument, so I'm setting it up so you have it with me to save the poor forum database.

Won't someone please think of the Text Columns?

HumblePuffin

NiKr wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

I can’t remember, will trees act as cover to ranged?

Would definitely prefer if they did. No matter if tab or action. This would most likely require a "dmg check at the end of the cast" instead of at the beginning though and I dunno which one Intrepid want to use.

I thought it was pretty cool in the mage showcase.

I scrubbed through it to see if they ever showed what happened if you didn’t aim the electrical arc around the rock but did not find it. They did however talk about collision when talking about the electricity so my hopes is that it will fizzle.

My hope would be that they use that tech for abilities that it makes sense on, but also use your standard LoS mechanics and collision for others.

Solvryn

Boneshatter wrote: »

MMOs have historically had a tough time balancing ranged and melee dps because of the inherent advantages that ranged have. They can attack sooner, have better target uptime, have to move less, can spread out to minimize directionals, and even use the environment to make themselves difficult to attack.

I thought it would be a fun discussion to hear what some of you would like to see in Ashes in an effort to keep both dps types viable and desirable. These are some of the things I've seen games do to varying degrees of success:

-making melee much tankier than ranged through better armor, better defensive cooldowns, or more health

-making melee so mobile that uptime is rarely interrupted

-giving melee some decent ranged attacks to use when they can't be on target

-giving melee DOT effects to counter the lost uptime

-making melee damage profiles very bursty to lessen the loss from movement

-making melee just do more damage assuming some of the damage will be lost from movement

-giving melee strong party buffs (not likely with a bard class around)

-giving melee a number of status ailments like slows, stuns, etc

-making ranged so immobile that when they do have to move it hurts them a lot

So, what types of things have have y'all seen that did or didn't work? What would you do?

It's too early to really examine game balance, as the kits aren't done yet.

Honestly, mechanical aptitude addresses a lot of the issues melee has vs range. But I'm not seeing much in many requirements in the games combat so far.

We will have to wait, really.

Depraved

Azherae wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

what is an rpg? what is a roleplaying game?

It's not a MOBA.

Yeah I know you're poking to have a semantic argument, so I'm setting it up so you have it with me to save the poor forum database.

Won't someone please think of the Text Columns?

not semantics. im asking what are the characteristics that make a game an rpg

Azherae

Depraved wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

what is an rpg? what is a roleplaying game?

It's not a MOBA.

Yeah I know you're poking to have a semantic argument, so I'm setting it up so you have it with me to save the poor forum database.

Won't someone please think of the Text Columns?

not semantics. im asking what are the characteristics that make a game an rpg

The character has a choice of a role.

The expression of that choice is through representative values normally referred to as 'stats' that are innate to the character.

Those stats, which are usually not easily changed as they are a representation of the character's strengths and weaknesses, are either not easily reset or are known/limited when changed (often so others can recognize the role if it is an MMORPG).

The expression of that choice affects the game world in some specific way (usually through the interaction of those numbers with opposed numbers).

Some people consider that there is some persistence involved, i.e. that previous choices of role, stats, and expression lead to further specific choices, and that the character is not entirely reset commonly.

All debatable of course, but thankfully we're talking about moving closer or further from an RPG, not 'which games are RPGs or not', so anything that moves away from those is 'less RPG' and anything that enforces them is 'more RPG'.

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