Potion spamming and potion cooldown

In my opinion, using potions correctly is a real skill. Spamming healing or mana potions requires no skill. Neither does waiting for a cooldown to end by hiding or running.

So why not a cooldown system that allows spam but for which the amount of resources recovered depends on the time needed before the end of the cooldown?

Example of a healing potion that allows you to recover 1000HP with a cool down of 100 seconds.

- The first potion allows you to recover 1000HP
- A second potion allows you to recover 500HP if it is used 50 seconds before the end of the cooldown, 100HP if it is used 90sec before the end of the cooldown.

Spamming would therefore be useless (at best 1 HP), worse, it will waste potions.

The goal would be to add a skill in PvP (perhaps to a lesser extent in PvE if you are about do die, you burn 1 pots even it gives you only 20% of total amount of HP). This would also enhance the profession of alchemist by greatly increasing the need for potions.

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Comments

Mag7spy

I'm prob not understanding this or it i is jus trying to making potions more convoluted for no reason.
You don't need to add more complex mechanics to everything just for the sake of it.

Myosotys

Mag7spy wrote: »

I'm prob not understanding this or it i is jus trying to making potions more convoluted for no reason.
You don't need to add more complex mechanics to everything just for the sake of it.

This is not complex at all. And I gave two reasons.

Ludullu

This kind of system wouldn't work. People would just complain that they can spam pots but it does nothing. Or that they don't have enough of them for them to do smth. Which then leads to weight/space limit discussions and/or production speeds (which tie into alchemy alts and so on and so on).

If you let people do something stupid - they will do smth stupid and blame you for letting them do it.

Either limit pots in whichever way is the most balanced or don't limit them at all and build your entire game's balance around that.

Azherae

I'd support it, it is technically better at simulating the situation in which you have a healer (or multiple), than 'standard cooldown' potions are.

So I consider it to be both 'automatically better balanced' and 'easier to balance' in terms of high volume simulation.

So I disagree with both Mag and NiKr here.

Raven016

The timer until the potion can have max effect can also be shown on the hotbar by gradually filling the potion.

Mag7spy

Raven016 wrote: »

The timer until the potion can have max effect can also be shown on the hotbar by gradually filling the potion.

This post makes it more clear what he wants. Potion spam is dumb and this just makes it more complex for no reason. People will just count down to the minimal amount and potion spam to heal themselves then do a larger heal when they need it by avoiding dmg.

Having one finger locked to one button to spam potions is one of the worst experiences in game play. It means your finger is going to be going back there and pressing it every few seconds, it adds nothing to game play other than artificially inflating your hp bar from bad mechanics.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

I'd support it, it is technically better at simulating the situation in which you have a healer (or multiple), than 'standard cooldown' potions are.

So I consider it to be both 'automatically better balanced' and 'easier to balance' in terms of high volume simulation.

L2 had a compromise of all healing pots (outside of a rare instant one and a super long cd one) were regen over time pots. They had a 15s effect, but you could refresh it 10 seconds in. So spamming was useless for 2/3 of the duration, but, if you wanted to always be under the pot's effect, you'd usually start spamming that button around 9th second of it, just to be sure that it goes through.

Where does that solution fall on the scale of "you can spam as many instant hp as you want" and "there's a long cd on all your pots"? And is it, in any way, comparable to the OP's suggestion? I feel like they're somewhat similar, but L2's still has enough of "you can't do this thing" kind of design to prevent the potential feelsbad moments that players might have.

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I'd support it, it is technically better at simulating the situation in which you have a healer (or multiple), than 'standard cooldown' potions are.

So I consider it to be both 'automatically better balanced' and 'easier to balance' in terms of high volume simulation.

L2 had a compromise of all healing pots (outside of a rare instant one and a super long cd one) were regen over time pots. They had a 15s effect, but you could refresh it 10 seconds in. So spamming was useless for 2/3 of the duration, but, if you wanted to always be under the pot's effect, you'd usually start spamming that button around 9th second of it, just to be sure that it goes through.

Where does that solution fall on the scale of "you can spam as many instant hp as you want" and "there's a long cd on all your pots"? And is it, in any way, comparable to the OP's suggestion? I feel like they're somewhat similar, but L2's still has enough of "you can't do this thing" kind of design to prevent the potential feelsbad moments that players might have.

I don't consider it relevant to the OP's suggestion at all.

I prefer not to discuss design beyond my current level of engagement, in this thread.

Depraved

yeah no potion spam pls. pvp turns into a fight of who has the most potions ughh.

Mag7spy

Depraved wrote: »

yeah no potion spam pls. pvp turns into a fight of who has the most potions ughh.

That is a thing for sure you need to go back and bring more constantly, but besides holding tons of potion thing my issues is your finger needing to press healing every few seconds (whatever would be the time be it 3 or 5 seconds)

Just creates a worse gameplay experience BDO literarily created a auto heal function because potion spamming was tiresome and not fun to do.

Myosotys

Raven016 wrote: »

The timer until the potion can have max effect can also be shown on the hotbar by gradually filling the potion.

Yes, exactly. Everyone is free to use their potions as they see fit. A design along the lines you suggest seems a simple solution.

I find it hard to understand those who see this as a potion spamming system when it's not.

My example shows that those who spam their potions will waste them, so there's absolutely no point of spamming them.

It's also incomparable to BDO, and nobody will get tired of clicking on their potions after 30 seconds instead of 50 or 100.

And it's not "whoever has the most potions wins the fight" either. It's the one with the best potion management.

I'm totally against Potion spamming. But running around waiting for a cooldown to end is a system that can be improved by adding potion management variables. I didn't want to create a controversy. I just thought it looked interesting.

Depraved

i didnt say your suggestion was a suggestion for potion spamming. i just said that i dont like potion spamming.

and yes, it turns into whoever has the most potions wins. you played ragnarok didnt you? you also had line of sight and food spam + plus potions in nw to go back to full health.

i once spent a good 30 minutes fighting the same dude in amrine ruins in nw because we both kept healing back to full using potions and the life staff (none of us were healers). extremely boring fight tbh

we have talked about this before.

edit: also think that time to kill in ashes is around 30 seconds (according to steven, and probably longer in 1v1). that makes potions even more powerful because you can heal everytime you are low on hp with some los, and you dont need to spam, making your anti spam suggestion pointless.

probably the best potion usage would be one strong potion that heals you a lot with a 5-10 mins cooldown.
alternative potions could be made that cant be used if you are purple, and are intended to give you more consistent heals during pve

Jamation

Myosotys wrote: »

In my opinion, using potions correctly is a real skill. Spamming healing or mana potions requires no skill. Neither does waiting for a cooldown to end by hiding or running.

I have to disagree on the hiding or running not requiring skill. Knowing when to retreat from a fight is an important tactical skill used across history. You can't fight on to win the war if you died during the battle.

Myosotys wrote: »

Spamming would therefore be useless (at best 1 HP), worse, it will waste potions.

I think this may actually be relevant (or might not) depending on what all the skills are across classes. I know there are other games that have mechanics that prevent a person from dying for a short time (I think it was 8 or 10 seconds) by blocking their death at 1 HP, but if they get hit again while at 1HP they will die. So in that regard they could just spam their potions to bring them to 2 HP and essentially be invulnerable during that time. Niche point sure, but more so to say we don't know how that could play around the AoC skills+augments.

Myosotys wrote: »

This would also enhance the profession of alchemist by greatly increasing the need for potions.

I think alchemist's will be plenty in demand as it is not only for their HP/MP potions, but I'm sure they'll also be brewing up some status effect potions or buff type potions. No need to so something for the purpose of impacting the market on that end.

All in all I don't think the current system isn't bad since it's kind of a blend of both. There's a cooldown for potions sure, but only of the same tier (as of now). So you could technically spam potions in the way you're describing and it would already have a reduced efficacy. I think this system is more beneficial to the market of alchemists anyways because it'll help alchemists of all levels stay relevant and profitable.
From Live stream at 2:20:10 - https://youtube.com/watch?v=JvsXn43Gak0&t=8410s

Myosotys

Depraved wrote: »

i didnt say your suggestion was a suggestion for potion spamming. i just said that i dont like potion spamming.

and yes, it turns into whoever has the most potions wins. you played ragnarok didnt you? you also had line of sight and food spam + plus potions in nw to go back to full health.

i once spent a good 30 minutes fighting the same dude in amrine ruins in nw because we both kept healing back to full using potions and the life staff (none of us were healers). extremely boring fight tbh

we have talked about this before.

Yeah I remember, it was a loong time ago. I have been for potion spamming in the past. But Im not anymore for it concerning AOC and it's not what Im suggesting now. Ragnarok it is different because there were litterrally a potion spamming system. In my suggestion, you cannot spam potions. If you do you will loose the fight and be out of potion before your opponent.

tautau

Yes, we discussed this before at some length. But one thing not yet mentioned in this thread is that potion availability also makes healers less necessary. Why bring a healer and share drops with them if you can just spam pots?

In my opinion (which of course matters little), I would rather have potions very rare & weak or not have them at all.

Myosotys

tautau wrote: »

Yes, we discussed this before at some length. But one thing not yet mentioned in this thread is that potion availability also makes healers less necessary. Why bring a healer and share drops with them if you can just spam pots?

In my opinion (which of course matters little), I would rather have potions very rare & weak or not have them at all.

But is there ONE person who is for spamming potion in this thread ? According to my suggestion the amount of HP recovered is the same (if you wait the end of the cooldown) and even less if you decide to use a potion before the end of the CD. So you should be pleased that it makes the presence of a healer even more useful.

I didn't say anything about the level of rarity of potions, because that's another debate.

Raven016

tautau wrote: »

Yes, we discussed this before at some length. But one thing not yet mentioned in this thread is that potion availability also makes healers less necessary. Why bring a healer and share drops with them if you can just spam pots?

In my opinion (which of course matters little), I would rather have potions very rare & weak or not have them at all.

Alternatively NPCs can become stronger. So if you take any arbitrary NPC which you can kill with 1 tank, 1dd and 2 healers, you can increase the NPC output damage and the same team will compensate it with potions.
If you increase the NPC strength even more, then they need one more team member.

Raven016

Potions can have additional effects too, not only healing, to say that the potion makes healers less useful.
But the game could be designed to make potions and buffs work in a combo, to amplify effects or get additional effects, if used with correct timing. Then both buffing and potions will be needed.

Myosotys

Raven016 wrote: »

Potions can have additional effects too, not only healing, to say that the potion makes healers less useful.
But the game could be designed to make potions and buffs work in a combo, to amplify effects or get additional effects, if used with correct timing. Then both buffing and potions will be needed.

But in general, it's the healing or mana potions that are used the most and that are mainly concerned in my proposal. I sincerely believe that my idea would bring a plus to combat and some new strategies.

As for the other potions, I'm not really in favor of combos, as they're more reserved for cooking/food/recipes, which are already in some way combos that need to be mastered. After that, it depends on the means available to alchemists and cooks. Nor should there be too many variables to study, which would complicate the task in PvP.

Raven016

Myosotys wrote: »

Raven016 wrote: »

Potions can have additional effects too, not only healing, to say that the potion makes healers less useful.
But the game could be designed to make potions and buffs work in a combo, to amplify effects or get additional effects, if used with correct timing. Then both buffing and potions will be needed.

But in general, it's the healing or mana potions that are used the most and that are mainly concerned in my proposal. I sincerely believe that my idea would bring a plus to combat and some new strategies.

As for the other potions, I'm not really in favor of combos, as they're more reserved for cooking/food/recipes, which are already in some way combos that need to be mastered. After that, it depends on the means available to alchemists and cooks. Nor should there be too many variables to study, which would complicate the task in PvP.

Makes sense. Then maybe healing potions will not be very useful.
How many potions types will we have? Will it be worth being a potion crafter?
And food will heal too just like potions?

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