Is religion optional or integral?

Can someone explain this system to me? Will religion be a required part of the game to not leave gaps in your characters progression?

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Raven016

RocketFarmer wrote: »

I can see an RP player refuse to heal those who don't follow their religion.

Wait to see the vegetarians when they discover that meat gives superpowers.

Taleof2Cities

Rebutko wrote: »

I don’t think you understand how the systems work. Every node type has religions. It’s not exclusive to divine nodes.

But, as the developer quotes say (the quotes you conveniently keep ignoring), religious affiliation is horizontal progression. In other words they add flavor only … and are not required to maintain status (“parity”) with other players.

To be tested in Alpha 2 of course.

But, I lean towards Steven’s quotes being accurate rather than being baloney.

RocketFarmer

No pun intended, but playing devil's advocate...

As for limiting a game or progression for fear that someone may take offense playing it, I should remind everyone that at one point mathematics was deemed heretical with folks being killed for it. Try making an MMORPG without math. Good luck with that.

And magic...that's even more heretical.

What kind of game does that lead us to? Candyland? Oh wait, some beliefs even have games as heretical or leading one to ruin. Well, crap.

But more seriously, I think religion might be as integral as magic (mysticism), math (RNG, music, abstract concepts), and other things someone could have problems with. Whether that's via systems or player agency. There's more than likely much more that the players could do to offend than anything in game. Part of the social dynamic as long as it isn't abusive or illegal.

Depraved

Rebutko wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Rebutko wrote: »

I think it crosses a line that shouldn’t be crossed in a video game. I think this is a huge mistake.

I disagree.

Religion has been a part of many games for many years. It adds flavor to a games world, and allowing players to gain from being active in an in game religion simply gives players motivation to participate in that gameplay.

If there was no reason to participate in religious content, the game shouldn't have religions at all.

Thus, it is either *have religions in game and make them worthwhile content* or *don't have them at all*. Since the game world is obviously richer and fuller with religion than without, it is a no-brainer that they exist, and as such that they are worthwhile content.

In years of playing MMO's with in game religions, this is the first complaints I've ever seen about religion like this.

Which game(s)?

skyforge comes to mind

Jamation

Rebutko wrote: »

If I’m understanding correctly you’re saying that because these impactful character progression augments, items, and recipes are locked behind a difficult to obtain status in the religion it makes it a non issue?

Eeeeh no, you're not really understanding correctly as I didn't say really say that. This is what I've said so far and made sure to clarify after the quotes on how this isn't going to be impactful to your character progression:

Jamation wrote: »

It's not going to leave a "gap" in the sense that if you don't do it you'll be behind other players. It's just a system that you can choose not to participate in.

Jamation wrote: »

Because we've already said that it WON'T have a "significant impact on character progression".

Jamation wrote: »

They literally said "horizontal progression" and "sidegrades".

Jamation wrote: »

It's a pick and choose system. If you choose not to pick a religious augment because it goes against your moral code, then go pick another type of augment that would fit that slot instead.

So to break it down:

1. The augments will not be impactful when compared to another augment of a different system that would have taken the same slot anyways.
- To clarify how I see what's been explained to us so far even further: Let's say a character has the ability fireball. The normal skill does 50 damage and has fire streaking behind it. The secondary class augment now makes it do 75 damage. With me so far? Archetype and class skills, everyone's equal so far. Now let's say a character has a religious augment on top of that. Now the skill does 100 damage and changes the trail to be sparkles instead of fire streaks. This would see impactful right? Except the person could go down the social organization route instead as that's related to the node. Now that person has a chance to augment their fireball skill but the skill still does 100 damage but now instead of sparkles it displays rainbows. Both additional augments are doing 100 damage so everyone is the same "impact"-wise regardless if they went social or religious augments but the difference is whether the skill looks sparkly or rainbowy. Are you truly claiming horizontal progression of sparkles or rainbows is going to have an impact on your progression? Cause that's how horizontal works. It alters things, it doesn't empower them. Heck, the racial augments might even take the same slot the other augments take too since you won't be able to apply all of them hence why I said the pick and choose.

Here is some more information about augments that also explains how augments work: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Augments

2.The items and recipes are unknown to us at the time and as such you can't claim they are impactful to progression just as I can't claim they won't be impactful. It's a moot point. The reason I bring up the "difficult to obtain status" in this regard as well is because even if it has an impact it's not going to be something an average player will use. So in regards to your personal progress of not choosing to follow a religion - no it has no impact on your personal character progression because realistically most of us won't be the pope, or won't be the king or even mayor, or be the leader of a castle, etc etc. These positions of power are limited for a reason. So in this point yes I concede it's a non issue as you'll have other systems to focus on that will provide similar or equivalent benefits. Ashes isn't meant to be a "do everything" kind of game.

But we also gotta remember we aren't even in Alpha 2. A lot of this isn't even implemented fully yet so things are subject to change and in a future live stream they may say something that makes me eat my words and I'm alright with that.
But we need to have a separation between reality and fiction regardless. I love Conan Exiles and generally always pick and upgrade the goddess Derketo. But I understand this has nothing to do with my faith as it's a video game and she isn't real.

Dygz

Rebutko wrote: »

It’s creepy to even talk about tbh. If you can’t tell the difference between fantasy combat in which characters respawn, limited gore, fictional monsters etc and a realistic religion system in which deity worship is encouraged via shrines, temples, quests etc. I’m not sure how to explain it to you.

Ashes is a High Fantasy RPG.
One of the core roles is Cleric.
In RPGs, Clerics gain unique powers from gods.
Also, in RPGs, gods are real.

Religion rewards are horizontal progression, rather than vertical progression.
The rewards from Religion progression are not better than rewards from Racial progression or rewards from Social Org progression.

You could also choose to not pursue Naval progression or Social Org progression or Racial progression.

But, if you wish to roleplay worshipping one of the gods of Verra, the option is there.
You could also choose to not worship any god and still have an excellent character build.

What line is crossed by having the option to worship gods in a High Fantasy RPG??
Same line that’s been crossed in the past by D&D and Harry Potter???

CROW3

Dygz wrote: »

Same line that’s been crossed in the past by D&D and Harry Potter???

Prof Umbridge is outraged.

Liniker

I'm sorry to tell you @Rebutko but you made a pact with the Ancients and their demons the moment you signed up to this game, your soul is now corrupted and you must worship our dark lord.

cyanideinsanity

Since it doesn't seem to have be explicitly said here and more just implied and perhaps ignored, religion augments are just one type of augment. Multiclass, social organizations, and race all offer augments as well.

If there happens to be a religious augment that would be BiS for you, oh well. That's how it is. Very often there are rewards locked behind content that some players don't want to do. Ashes is very much not a 1 player/character does/unlocks everything, unlike how ff14 and runescape are.

Rebutko

Dygz wrote: »

Rebutko wrote: »

It’s creepy to even talk about tbh. If you can’t tell the difference between fantasy combat in which characters respawn, limited gore, fictional monsters etc and a realistic religion system in which deity worship is encouraged via shrines, temples, quests etc. I’m not sure how to explain it to you.

Ashes is a High Fantasy RPG.
One of the core roles is Cleric.
I’m RPGs Clerics gain unique powers from gods.
Also, in RPGs, gods are real.

Religion rewards are horizontal progression, rather than vertical progression.
The rewards from Religion progression are not better than rewards from Racial progression or rewards from Social Org progression.

You could also choose to not pursue Naval progression or Social Org progression or Racial progression.

But, if you wish to roleplay worshipping one of the gods of Verra, the option is there.
You could also choose to not worship any god and still an excellent character build.

What line is crossed by having the option to worship gods in a High Fantasy RPG??
Same line that’s been crossed in the past by D&D and Harry Potter???

I’m not a big d&d or Harry Potter fan - I’ve seen the movies, but I don’t remember any direct god worship or religious practice gatekeeping character progression in either of these. Ofc they have evil/good themes and personalities - just like any other mmo does, but I think you are completely missing my point and putting forth a straw man argument. Please refer to above posts I’ve written to understand clearly what I’m saying. I don’t feel a need to directly respond to your points here because you are completely misrepresenting what I’m saying.

Rebutko

Liniker wrote: »

I'm sorry to tell you @Rebutko but you made a pact with the Ancients and their demons the moment you signed up to this game, your soul is now corrupted and you must worship our dark lord.

😂

Dygz

Rebutko wrote: »

I’m not a big d&d or Harry Potter fan - I’ve seen the movies, but I don’t remember any direct god worship or religious practice gatekeeping character progression in either of these. Ofc they have evil/good themes and personalities - just like any other mmo does, but I think you are completely missing my point and putting forth a straw man argument. Please refer to above posts I’ve written to understand clearly what I’m saying. I don’t feel a need to directly respond to your points here because you are completely misrepresenting what I’m saying.

Religion progression is a side progression. It does not gatekeep character progression.
Ashes doesn't really have Good/Evil themes for players beyond what individual players choose to RP.

I already read what you wrote in previous posts and cannot clearly understand your concern - which is why I asked for clarification.
I haven't misrepresented anything. I asked some questions.
You are free to elucidate... or remain murky.

Spif

So many games have god(s) and demon/devils...or just good gods and evil gods...and better games have gods in varying shades of grey IMO. If you need an example, play BG3. All clerics need to choose a deity. No correlation to real world religion at all.

Garrtok

Rebutko wrote: »

Nevermind I think I found the answer to my question. Needless to say I think this is a huge mistake forcing players into “practicing” a religion in a game that may interfere with their own deeply held religious beliefs. Major disappointment this is direction that has been chosen.

What is your issue? It is a fantasy universe with in that context existing gods. Are you just touchy about the word "religion"?

Noaani

Rebutko wrote: »

Nevermind I think I found the answer to my question. Needless to say I think this is a huge mistake forcing players into “practicing” a religion in a game that may interfere with their own deeply held religious beliefs. Major disappointment this is direction that has been chosen.

As an aside, what religious beliefs is it that one would need to hold where playing a character in a fantasy setting that worships a fantasy god is against them, but playing a character in a fantasy setting that kills others isn't?

If you plan on playing Ashes in a way where your make believe character doesn't kill other make believe characters, you have bigger concerns with the minor dent in character progress that not having a religion would cause.

Its_Me

Rebutko wrote: »

Yes of course everyone understands it’s a game. The issue is there are religions that people follow in real life that would never feel comfortable being forced through character progression into a “practice” of worship to fictional Gods. It’s one thing for there to be themes in the game about this for context of the fictional world, but it’s quite another to lock character progression behind a game programmed religious practice with realistic real-world religious actions that must be followed.

It does not appear that you do understand that this is just a game though. Your statement that religion is fine for context of the fictional world appears to suggest you understand it, but you then twist to fit some biased narrative by suggesting that it only fits the fictional game world IF other people cannot utilize the option and benefit from it if you or others 'elect' not to do the same.

Like others have already stated, people need to try to separate their real world biases from their pixelated world. Most of us would not condone violence in the real world and yet, we freely engage in this sort of activity in games understanding just that, we are playing a game.

With your logic, next we will be hearing from vegans that demand other players cannot achieve nourishment or buffs on non-vegan pixel food items in AoC because their biased RL vegan agenda conflicts with items in game that are meat based so others should not benefit from said items.

AoC is based on fantasy and looking over the various religion choices, they are as well. We should not be dragging real world issues/biases/beliefs into games, so let's leave things like gender/diet/religion/politics in the real world and all consider ourselves pixels the minute we log in.

While I am not an atheist, I do believe in a religion that suggests I should not idolize or worship other Gods and yet, I will have no issue selecting a 'fantasy' religion in this 'fantasy' game and I also have no doubt that if I were an atheist, I would have no issue selecting a 'fantasy' religion in this 'fantasy' game.

I suggest all those that want to drag real world personal agendas into fantasy games just pull up their big boy/girl panties and use common sense in realizing that a pixelated fantasy game is just that and partake or do not partake in portions of the game they do/do not feel comfortable with, but please, just stop trying to push personal biased real life agendas/beliefs on others that have no issue with/or enjoy those mechanics in a 'fantasy' pixelated game.

Imoxator

While unique, religion is a horizontal progression, not necessarily vertical. You have more cards you can use, but they aren’t necessarily better than the others you already had.

Goalid

I agree, if Moloch found out that I'm playing a fantasy video game where my character worships another god, who knows the punishment he'd dole out to me in the real world!

Demostrathe

i mean there are going to be a ton of other things that may clash with your IRL beliefs even with religions excluded so if you cant handle that then simply dont play

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