DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

good analogy. ive done everyboss in wow when i played with 0 addons. never used trackers in any games. just learned everything doing it and reacting.

Unless you are talking about the easy versions of encounters (in which case you are literally saying that you don't think a calculator is needed for advanced hydrothermal dynamics because you can do mental arithmatec right now), then I guarantee someone in your raid was.

Even though WoW isn't the game with the most top end encounters ever (it has had I think 6 encounters in it's almost 20 year history that I would consider top end), I can without hesitation tell you that you were not defeating top end encounters in WoW at any point in it's history without trackers being used in the raid.

George_Black

Noaani wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

Yet this is just a game.

Yes it is.

Do you understand the point of an analogy?

Do you understand apples and oranges?
Advanced hydrothermal dynamics?

Noaani

George_Black wrote: »

The rest of the ppl should get a a chance to play a nice mmo without visual clutter.

So, you edited this post.

What visual clutter?

A combat tracker can and should be run completely in the background. When I run one, I start it up at the start of a play session, and the first time I see any evidence that it is even running is when the game client closes (or if I alt+tab out of the game for some reason).

If your argument against combat trackers is a visual thing, then that isn't an argument against them in general, it is an argument against the specific implementation of some of them - and to be honest, it is an argument I agree with.

Ludullu

PvPers just live in the old past where those chunky calculations were made by hand.
https://www.history.com/news/human-computers-women-at-nasa

Steven wants those uber PvErs to just write down their encounters and figure out how to beat the bosses w/o any additional tools.

It's just the good ol' "back in my day we had to walk 20 miles in 10 feet snow to get to school. Woke up at 3am to do that as well".

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

PvPers just live in the old past where those chunky calculations were made by hand.

No, PvP'ers have content that make combat trackers unnecessary.

You and I have talked many times about the differences in PvE content in PvE games vs PvP games. If content in PvP focused games is all you know, and if you think it's great, then you won't see a need for combat trackers.

George_Black

I still dont see the need. Played eso for 5 years and never once used such an addon. Cleared all veteran hard mode trials as dps, no problem.

Noaani

George_Black wrote: »

I still dont see the need. Played eso for 5 years and never once used such an addon. Cleared all veteran hard mode trials as dps, no problem.

You may note that when I talk about games with top end PvE, ESO is never in the conversation.

ESO content is that basic arithmetic. You don't need a calculator for it.

playerEra

I think Steve is right in what he said, DPS meters create toxics group and meta builds.
Play the game, learn it yourself, find what works for you.

Raid and dungeon groups are not are friendly thing in the MMORPG world, if you underperform for any reason you're out, it doesn't give people the chance to improve and makes them steer away from such content.

I'm sure some people are saying they wouldn't have this toxic mindset but its a straight lie.

WOW is a clear indicator on why they're bad.

They do have their upsides but the downsides greatly outweigh them.

Mag7spy

Erahh wrote: »

I think Steve is right in what he said, DPS meters create toxics group and meta builds.
Play the game, learn it yourself, find what works for you.

Raid and dungeon groups are not are friendly thing in the MMORPG world, if you underperform for any reason you're out, it doesn't give people the chance to improve and makes them steer away from such content.

I'm sure some people are saying they wouldn't have this toxic mindset but its a straight lie.

WOW is a clear indicator on why they're bad.

They do have their upsides but the downsides greatly outweigh them.

Ya most people agree, its just a handful you can count on like one hand that try to push for it as most people don't want it or don't want people being able to read them and posting it online wanting their privacy.

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

good analogy. ive done everyboss in wow when i played with 0 addons. never used trackers in any games. just learned everything doing it and reacting.

Unless you are talking about the easy versions of encounters (in which case you are literally saying that you don't think a calculator is needed for advanced hydrothermal dynamics because you can do mental arithmatec right now), then I guarantee someone in your raid was.

Even though WoW isn't the game with the most top end encounters ever (it has had I think 6 encounters in it's almost 20 year history that I would consider top end), I can without hesitation tell you that you were not defeating top end encounters in WoW at any point in it's history without trackers being used in the raid.

maybe other people used them? for sure. but i didnt. according to you, you cant carry a bad player in a top pve encounter. so i either got carried or i just didnt need the tracker

Noaani wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

I still dont see the need. Played eso for 5 years and never once used such an addon. Cleared all veteran hard mode trials as dps, no problem.

You may note that when I talk about games with top end PvE, ESO is never in the conversation.

ESO content is that basic arithmetic. You don't need a calculator for it.

give us example of top pve content in different games.

Mag7spy

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

good analogy. ive done everyboss in wow when i played with 0 addons. never used trackers in any games. just learned everything doing it and reacting.

Unless you are talking about the easy versions of encounters (in which case you are literally saying that you don't think a calculator is needed for advanced hydrothermal dynamics because you can do mental arithmatec right now), then I guarantee someone in your raid was.

Even though WoW isn't the game with the most top end encounters ever (it has had I think 6 encounters in it's almost 20 year history that I would consider top end), I can without hesitation tell you that you were not defeating top end encounters in WoW at any point in it's history without trackers being used in the raid.

maybe other people used them? for sure. but i didnt. according to you, you cant carry a bad player in a top pve encounter. so i either got carried or i just didnt need the tracker

Noaani wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

I still dont see the need. Played eso for 5 years and never once used such an addon. Cleared all veteran hard mode trials as dps, no problem.

You may note that when I talk about games with top end PvE, ESO is never in the conversation.

ESO content is that basic arithmetic. You don't need a calculator for it.

give us example of top pve content in different games.

Ludullu

Noaani rn

Ruerik

Almost 200 pages of back and forth when the discussion was already ended by Steven saying he will not build a tracker for us to use.

Ashes will not have a dev supported tracker, this is clearly stated.

The discussion should probably focus on
What should the stance be about 3rd party programs, because they do exist, and nothing Intrepid can do will stop them from existing.

Do they, go full stop ban anyone that has one? (A risky stance since they have to install a program on your computer to look at what else is running, which is illegal in many eastern countries, a big market for them to not sell the game in just to snoop on us)

Do they, ban people caught using one? A common stance in the industry of dont ask dont tell, and what I personally think is the best solution, since it allows people to use what they want anyway, and gives the pitchfork wielders a sense of victory that they get to be 'right'. Everyone wins.

Do they just acknowledge the existence and warn against use because its not their program and they cant gaurantee its not malware? And then we all go along with our daily grind?

DPS meters dont hurt anyone, meta gamers going to meta game one way or another, tools or no tools. Toxic gamers going to be toxic tools or no tools.

**Deadly Boss Mods** style addons **DO** hurt everyone as a community, and should be a different discussion than DPS meters.

Really though, its a live and let live kind of situation. Me or anyone use measuring dps doesnt affect you or anyone else that doesnt use one.

In the words of Mr. Rogers. "Cant we all just get along?"

Ludullu

Taerrik wrote: »

Really though, its a live and let live kind of situation. Me or anyone use measuring dps doesnt affect you or anyone else that doesnt use one.

It ultimately influences everyone if Intrepid decide to keep making harder encounters to keep the top pvers in the game (that is if they even manage to get any in the first place).

Trackers will make fights easier, so pvers with them will ask for harder fights. If Intrepid comply, people who were maybe able to do those encounters before would either have to go use trackers or completely forget about any future encounters.

If Intrepid don't comply - they lose hardcore pvers. At which point I'm not even sure if it would be worth it to advertise their game as "having good pve". The latest Steven appearance kiiiiinda touched on this, but he just weaseled himself out of a comparison between super basic pve of games like AA by saying "well, you'd have to give a direct example, but we're definitely making difficult pve for Ashes, sir yes sir".

The worst thing in all of this, as you and others have pointed out already, is that Intrepid wouldn't ever know if the top pvers even have trackers on their PCs. Obviously it would be logical to assume they do, but you'd never know for sure. And at that point Intrepid would be trying to figure out if their current pve encounters are just the right amount of fun for the most amount of players or if it's so damn hard for the 95%, while it's super easy for the 5% who have trackers.

And there'd be a super vocal minority on both sides, so it's not like Intrepid could simply look at feedback and just decide which way it is.

Ruerik

There is a big difference between DPS meters, and 'deadlybossmods' style addons.

people with DPS meters arent any better at the game than people without. source: I've cleared every content in wow and ff14 (every content, meaning the ultimates too). I am a speedrunner type of player, I like to study encounters and optimize my ability use to squeeze out even the tiniest bit more damage to go faster. I am not the best player, but I am certainly a tryhard and I like to do the big damages, and usually find myself measured in the top 5% or better.

Doesnt make me a better player, or the fights easier that I can measure my teams performance. Just gives me a way to look at the fights after the raid night is over before we go back the next day.

I still have to learn and understand all the mechanics, by watching video recordings of my or other players at the same prog point I am on, and that research has nothing to do with a dps meter, this research right here is what seperates good players that clear fast from decent players. Not a dps meter, but hours spent during prog reviewing footage.

I still have to perform, the mechanics dont simply do themselves just because I know what damage is. the meters just allow me to analyze and science things better to develop better solutions to the raid.

Mixed into this entire 200 page "debate" is DBM addons, or their equivalent in other games.
DBM style addons however, play the game for people, to the point where is there even a point to calling yourself a gamer if you rely on them. There is no fun or challenge when I have something on my screen that says "GO STAND OVER HERE, AND USE THIS ABILITY!!" and then draws an arrow for me telling me where to go. In my eyes that is a totally different discussion than a dps meter. This garbage ruins the game for everyone in my opinion.

I dont care about triggers that say an aoe is about to go off, when I can also just look with my own eyes to see that yes indeed, the aoe is about to go off. Doesnt really impact things in my view. I do care when a third party app plays the game for someone however.

George_Black

Noaani wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

I still dont see the need. Played eso for 5 years and never once used such an addon. Cleared all veteran hard mode trials as dps, no problem.

You may note that when I talk about games with top end PvE, ESO is never in the conversation.

ESO content is that basic arithmetic. You don't need a calculator for it.

Those mmos are in your head. If you ever get 40mil to start with, go make them. And least when I talk about stuff I base them on reality.

Ludullu

Taerrik wrote: »

I still have to perform, the mechanics dont simply do themselves just because I know what damage is. the meters just allow me to analyze and science things better to develop better solutions to the raid.

So they make it easier for you to perform better. Which precisely my point and one of Noaani's points (but for a different reason).

Say there's a super hardcore boss. With a tracker that explains to you everything that has happened in the fight to the minute detail you can manage to beat the boss after 50 tries (I know this is a super low attempt quantity, but whatever). W/o said tracker it'd take you way longer to figure out where exactly you could max out your output or where you had issues with boss mechanics, so instead of 50 it'd be 100 tries (again, purely for example).

If said boss respawns twice a week that's a difference of half a damn year, which is supposedly the content release schedule for Intrepid. So instead of consuming all the top tier content in half the time, you give devs more time to feed you content.

And as I said already, in the context of trackers, once you're done with that kind of difficulty of bosses you'd want a great new challenge. And in this scenario you'd want that challenge halfway till expansion, while other players (of supposedly same skill) that weren't using the tracker would be still figuring out how to beat the boss.

And for the next expansion Intrepid might look at groups of tracker people and say, well if we don't give them good new challenges they might get bored with the game, but if we introduce even harder bosses then everyone w/o trackers would never keep pace with the updates nor with tracker people (which is bad in the context of a pvx game).

At which point Intrepid would have a few choices: disregard the tracker people, disregard the non-tracker people, separate the content into difficulty ranges (pretty much impossible for open world content so this is kinda out of the picture) or make twice as much content in half the time. All of those choices are shite for a dev company, as far as I understand it.

And for the non-tracker players there'd pretty much be no other choice other than to start using trackers as well, at which point it's no longer "live and let live", it's just a "my way or the highway" approach.

Songcaller

I'm a big boy and can survive toxicity. What's harder to survive is a lack of balance. Really Steven should rethink the policy of no official dps meter. Better everyone has one rather than some in my opinion.

Ruerik

I'm going to be real honest with you, and I dont meant to say this in a toxic or negative way, its just how it is.

If it takes someone half a year to clear a boss, trying every week

1) Either the boss is extremely over tuned, and probably not meant to be cleared except by less than 1% of the playerbase anyway.

2) or they have major issues performing mechanics that have nothing to do with pushing more DPS numbers, and more to do with very basic raid requirements such as awareness and coordination.

The real path forward to clearing bosses in a reasonably fast measure of time is reviewing video footage that you or others record to figure out the tricks to mechanics. DPS checks do exist, but have only ever held back groups for a little while, on the scale of a few weeks at best. Never in the history of RPG games held back groups for half a year.

But maybe I am wrong, maybe Intrepid plan to go with mechanically simple bosses where the entire focus is on tank and spank pushing big damage, who knows I guess. I would personally not like that, I am hoping for mechanically complex encounters like in Wildstar or FF14.

In the case Intrepid make fights very simple, I yield to you that a DPS meter is a bigger advantage here than it would be in other games.

Mag7spy

Taerrik wrote: »

I'm going to be real honest with you, and I dont meant to say this in a toxic or negative way, its just how it is.

If it takes someone half a year to clear a boss, trying every week

1) Either the boss is extremely over tuned, and probably not meant to be cleared except by less than 1% of the playerbase anyway.

2) or they have major issues performing mechanics that have nothing to do with pushing more DPS numbers, and more to do with very basic raid requirements such as awareness and coordination.

The real path forward to clearing bosses in a reasonably fast measure of time is reviewing video footage that you or others record to figure out the tricks to mechanics. DPS checks do exist, but have only ever held back groups for a little while, on the scale of a few weeks at best. Never in the history of RPG games held back groups for half a year.

But maybe I am wrong, maybe Intrepid plan to go with mechanically simple bosses where the entire focus is on tank and spank pushing big damage, who knows I guess. I would personally not like that, I am hoping for mechanically complex encounters like in Wildstar or FF14.

In the case Intrepid make fights very simple, I yield to you that a DPS meter is a bigger advantage here than it would be in other games.

They literarily aren't going for ff14 or WoW, their challenges and mechanics are going to revolve around more pvx and open dungeons. So if you are expecting something like one person does not do the mech right so its a raid wipe instantly, that wont be a thing.

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