DPS Meter Megathread

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Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

There aren't any over all stats like this.

All the more reasons to ask for this from Intrepid. I'm sure EQ's devs had these stats behind the scenes and decided how to design future encounters based off of that info, but I wish that was more publicly known as well.

They did at one point say that 65% of all active accounts for a given content cycle had been credited for at least one raid kill.

I don't think that information means too much (considering a number of people had multiple accounts, that could well mean every active player), but it is a thing that was once stated.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

Your head is in the way of your AP though which, in the context of this thread, is REALLY FUNNY.

Yeah, I dunno if its adhd or forgetfulness or whatever, but I'm pretty sure I had the thought of "I need to reposition myself" either before starting the stream or during it, but then completely forgot about that

I do it later on in this video though.

Or maybe it was my subconscious dislike for any types of dps trackers

my data can't be fully analyzed because I'm blocking all the info

Ludullu

Btw, @Azherae what's your opinion on the statement that the first boss (the helicopter) is the tutorial for Balteus?

It keeps its distance from you, has some quick moves across the location, it shoots rockets and being aggressive against it is quite beneficial. And if you die to it, the game literally gives you the tutorial for how to treat rockets (mainly the "ground blast can still dmg you" part).

And the first mech you get is obviously built to beat it, so if you could overcome the helicopter through your skill (which was also a gate for some people afaik) then you can obviously overcome balteus with the same build. And my gameplay is the showcase of that cause I have pretty much the exact build, just with double the shoulder rockets.

Tragnar

NiKr wrote: »

If the entire game becomes "advanced math" because that's what the pvers are asking for, then you're excluding majority of players from said game.

every game is "advanced math" it is a matter of how far the math will be calculated by players, which directly correlates to how big the player base is.

The more people play the more thorough theorycraft is being done regardless of the existence of trackers. Trackers make it accessible for players to verify theorycrafts to widen the meta

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Btw, @Azherae what's your opinion on the statement that the first boss (the helicopter) is the tutorial for Balteus?

It keeps its distance from you, has some quick moves across the location, it shoots rockets and being aggressive against it is quite beneficial. And if you die to it, the game literally gives you the tutorial for how to treat rockets (mainly the "ground blast can still dmg you" part).

And the first mech you get is obviously built to beat it, so if you could overcome the helicopter through your skill (which was also a gate for some people afaik) then you can obviously overcome balteus with the same build. And my gameplay is the showcase of that cause I have pretty much the exact build, just with double the shoulder rockets.

I don't have any opinion on that statement.

AC6 is so different from something like, say, AC3, that it kinda doesn't 'work' mentally from the structure previously established. It tilted towards being a Souls game because that's what people expect and shop for.

It still definitely contains enough elements of the 'Core' gameplay that it won't disappoint anyone, but the feeling is quite removed.

That's another relatively good point for the thread. Because AC6 is, for most non-veterans, a Souls game with adaptation requirements, they are more likely to follow the meta because that's 'what the game encourages'. So if the first boss was supposed to help you win against Baltheus but you didn't 'get' that the game is like that (either because you never played a Soulslike OR because you played way too MUCH old Armored Core), it doesn't register at all.

So your focus at Baltheus would have been on 'optimization' not 'adaptation', which somewhat matters if you didn't grind for cash, particularly because if you 'know that you normally use a different leg model' or 'normally use a heavy core or generator', you spent your money on that, by the time you hit Baltheus you haven't necessarily got the funds to retry .

It's just different approaches to games and information, though. I'm not going to tell you 'go try it again and see if your win was directly skill or not', because even if it wasn't, you are exactly the type to do it for 8 hours anyway.

What I'll definitely say is that everyone I know set out to beat Baltheus 'with whatever they planned to use for the game in general', and used it as their testing ground for improving with those things.

Basically it's all just entirely out of scope for veterans anyway, it's just 'Hey who got their Dark Souls in my Armored Core?'

Interestingly, AC3 did have, in some situations, a way to measure your hitrate so you could know when you were using the wrong weapon/FCS combination.

AC6 has simplified all this down, especially at the start of the game, presumably for similar reasons to Steven's decision. Depending on your preferences, it makes the game better. Or, of course, alternately, makes the game worse. But I can definitely say that overall, the 'PvE is not as good'.

Ludullu

Tragnar wrote: »

every game is "advanced math" it is a matter of how far the math will be calculated by players, which directly correlates to how big the player base is.

I'm sure Noaani would disagree with that

Azherae

I thought of one more thing to quick-add to that, actually, @NiKr.

Do you know what the damage reduction/ricochet rate on your handgun rounds were in the fights?

This is my usual understanding of the types of player that engage with games like this, in order from 'Meter-hating casuals' to 'Meter using sweatlords' (this is an exaggeration).

OmegaCasual: Wait those can do less damage/bounce off? I'm ditching this useless weapon then.
SuperCasual: I just use missiles, I didn't pay attention to that part.
AsmonCasual: It works when you're close, right? So just use it then.
SlightlySweaty: I decided after seeing it bounce off a few times that I might not be able to stay at the right range.
SomePerspiring: I was paying attention to the damage values when I could, and watching the Ricochet rate, to learn the optimal range.
GymLord: So I worked out which movement style combo I needed to get this right so that I could both do my reload animation at the end of it and still not get too many ricochets
UltraGymLord: Well ACTUALLY if you perfectly use your Assault Boost just outside the range where a Ricochet would normally happen, the additional momentum causes you to get better damage and possibly avoid it, I think.
JustAPuddleAtThisPoint: Since the stagger value on the Handgun is related to the relative angle and velocity of the attack, you can work out techniques to weave in and out of the Ricochet range by dodging in specific directions after your sword slashes, and then pay attention to the damage values to know when to manually reload since getting a Ricochet at X point indicates that Baltheus is about to retreat from your sword attack.

As I think people know, I don't actually care about the meters themselves. I care if, by refusing to have them, one of two things happens:
1) The game is designed for the AsmonCasual level and I get bored
2) The game is designed for the UltraGymLord but refuses to give the Casuals any proper way to improve due to hiding information (like, just imagine AC6 without the Ricochet indicator, they're still happening, but they're basically a hidden mechanic)

Baltheus is the equivalent of the 'L2 PvE' to me, in the sense that it just lets you solve the problem through simplifying the situation, and gives you the choice to do that, or not do it.

But if you had no Ricochet indicator, and went purely by what the numbers on your AC imply your damage values are, some set of people ends up screwed (especially if they don't know how exactly the Firearm Specialization stat on Arms works). Those people could solve the problem by switching Arms and playing the way they like, but they would end up 'copying you' because of the complexity of the 'hidden information'.

Tragnar

NiKr wrote: »

Tragnar wrote: »

every game is "advanced math" it is a matter of how far the math will be calculated by players, which directly correlates to how big the player base is.

I'm sure Noaani would disagree with that

Actually even I disagree with it, because it isn't complete - it also depends on the competitiveness on the game - either through leaderboards or bottleneck public resources - which both of those are going to be in the game

so you need 2 things for theorycraft to be pursued - motivation to perform better and players that would use the theorycraft

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

I thought of one more thing to quick-add to that, actually, Nikr

You're missing another type of player. DumbassCasual

Cause that's me

I had 0 clue ricochets even existed in the game. If there was any indicator or tutorial for them - I completely glossed over it, even though I read all tutorials. And I've seen the "advanced info" window on someone's stream, but I've never opened up that menu myself.

And it's the "dumbass" type because I just try until I succeed, w/o changing the build, simply because I like it

Why I fail? Because I'm not good enough. EZ as that.

I haven't watched Asmon's attempts of the next boss because I'm yet to fight it myself and I don't wanna spoil myself, but I know that he struggled with that one for 7h until he finally changed his build. My build is somewhat similar to his and he beat Balteus even faster than I did, so I imagine that I'll have issues with the next boss as well, so that's gonna be a test for how far I can take my approach (well, if that boss requires taking it further than my 8h against Sentinel).

So I think Asmon is also the dumbass casual who refuses to change their preference until they either break through the supposed ceiling or get a bit too frustrated and finally cave in.

Also, I tried to go back and attempt the boss again, but I think my hdd is dying even more than it was before and my game keeps crashing before I load into the lvl. And I don't have enough space on my ssd cause genshin+star rail+starfield took up all the space. I'll try to finish Starfield asap to go back to AC before they start changing the game again.

Though my playstyle there is, once again, "dumbass

" so I dunno how long it'll take me. Got several rarest achievements in the game before progressing the MQ beyond, like, 30 minutes of progress

26h of gameplay btw

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I thought of one more thing to quick-add to that, actually, Nikr

You're missing another type of player. DumbassCasual Cause that's me I had 0 clue ricochets even existed in the game. If there was any indicator or tutorial for them - I completely glossed over it, even though I read all tutorials. And I've seen the "advanced info" window on someone's stream, but I've never opened up that menu myself.

And it's the "dumbass" type because I just try until I succeed, w/o changing the build, simply because I like it Why I fail? Because I'm not good enough. EZ as that.

I haven't watched Asmon's attempts of the next boss because I'm yet to fight it myself and I don't wanna spoil myself, but I know that he struggled with that one for 7h until he finally changed his build. My build is somewhat similar to his and he beat Balteus even faster than I did, so I imagine that I'll have issues with the next boss as well, so that's gonna be a test for how far I can take my approach (well, if that boss requires taking it further than my 8h against Sentinel).

So I think Asmon is also the dumbass casual who refuses to change their preference until they either break through the supposed ceiling or get a bit too frustrated and finally cave in.

Also, I tried to go back and attempt the boss again, but I think my hdd is dying even more than it was before and my game keeps crashing before I load into the lvl. And I don't have enough space on my ssd cause genshin+star rail+starfield took up all the space. I'll try to finish Starfield asap to go back to AC before they start changing the game again.

Though my playstyle there is, once again, "dumbass " so I dunno how long it'll take me. Got several rarest achievements in the game before progressing the MQ beyond, like, 30 minutes of progress 26h of gameplay btw

Well, you said it, not me (I hope you can take this lightheartedly).

It's not that I have any issue with the 'Dumbass Casual' player, it's moreso that just like games shouldn't be made for the UltraGymLords, it shouldn't be made for the 'Dumbass Casual' either.

It's the same situation. You could get a bunch of people going 'why the hell do you need a DPS meter for Armored Core, you're just trying to make the game easier or tell other people what to do', while never knowing that there are Ricochets.

I think it can be harder for the 'Dumbass Casual' to see why someone else has to care about the data. My bigger concern, always, is that they are also often the type to cause a meta, and without your level of openmindedness, it's normally a dismissive meta.

But I 'have to know how Ricochets work' because I don't use missiles, even for Baltheus. And while I'm lucky enough to be able to fight and track approximate Ricochet percentage at the same time, and I know enough to not only know how it is different from previous, but also how it nerfs things that should intuitively work...

Other people are not so lucky.

Or I guess I should say... 'For everyone else, there's missiles'.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

It's not that I have any issue with the 'Dumbass Casual' player, it's moreso that just like games shouldn't be made for the UltraGymLords, it shouldn't be made for the 'Dumbass Casual' either.

Which brings us to the toxic middle of "I pretend I do not see it". The dumbasses will just do their dumb things, while ultragyms will just analyze the shit out of everything they need/want w/o really pushing it onto others.

Btw, I did manage to launch AC. 5 tries on the boss, with 2 of the non-win tries ending up at ~10% of his hp cause I got a bit too greedy and overconfident. I changed my build to the one I had before, so I assume I did acquire skill in beating this boss after those first 20 tries. Obviously rockets probably hit me less as well, but I feel like they weren't too much of a problem on my initial runs either way (well, on the later half of those attempts).

Still a shit score, cause I managed to die fucking twice on the penultimate mob

Depraved

what game is that

Ludullu

Depraved wrote: »

what game is that

Armored Core 6. Mechs with hybrid combat.

Got a B with a Better build now

either way it's time to come back to the Starfield grind.

Meters are inevitable so we just gotta take this thread to 200 pages for the hell of it

Depraved

lol. i liked mech warrior back then xD just saying

Fiddlez

Yeah I am not a fan of DPS meters. I think it's one of those things that players think they want but don't.

When WoW introduced cross server everything they essentially destroyed the community of the game. Just pointing out that sometimes things feel good but undermine what the game actually is.

I think best case scenario we let the settle for a while and see if they are needed. The DPS meter will just pressure performance over innovation or utility. Everyone needs to remember that you won't care as much about DPS when people who are speced for PVP come.

Best comprise I can think of is training Dummies that provide some feedback. Maybe an NPC you talk to will provide information back to you. This way it works like more of a training area and it keeps it out of the raid and the negative side effects that comes with it

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

AC6 has simplified all this down, especially at the start of the game, presumably for similar reasons to Steven's decision. Depending on your preferences, it makes the game better. Or, of course, alternately, makes the game worse. But I can definitely say that overall, the 'PvE is not as good'.

Btw, what would be the best representative single player game for pve that kinda requires you to figure out and analyze its combat and all the details related to it? MHW? Smth else? Is there even such a solo player game?

MybroViajero

Ludullu

MybroViajero wrote: »

I can stop once we're at page 200. Otherwise

MybroViajero

Azherae

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

AC6 has simplified all this down, especially at the start of the game, presumably for similar reasons to Steven's decision. Depending on your preferences, it makes the game better. Or, of course, alternately, makes the game worse. But I can definitely say that overall, the 'PvE is not as good'.

Btw, what would be the best representative single player game for pve that kinda requires you to figure out and analyze its combat and all the details related to it? MHW? Smth else? Is there even such a solo player game?

Until 6, I'd have answered "Armored Core" personally.

Since 6 is simplified, I'd have to explain a lot about the differences between 3 or 4, and 6. Hopefully there will be a remaster with a more modern control scheme.

That's what AC6 makes me wish for. AC3.

You'll get to a certain Balam mission in Chapter 3 that embodies it toward the end of the mission. But I can't say if I just think so because I happen to not use whatever is simplest to just counter it.

Either way, the consensus from my group has been 'This only starts being like any older Armored Core game after Chapter 2'.

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