DPS Meter Megathread

This discussion was created from comments split from: DPS Meter Megathread.

I’ve instructed the mods to focus any dps meter threads into a single mega thread to help focus and centralize the discussion 👍

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Ruerik

Those damage and healing values we see as we play the game? What else will we math with.

Dygz

In Ashes, we won't be using "maths" much either because Health will be more graphical than numerical.
We don't need "maths" to help us in combat. And, I don't know that people want those "maths".
Some people don't want Health bars at all.

Numerical Health and Damage numbers are just a quick and easy way to indicate the amount of damage occurring in an encounter because we lack a considerable amount of sensory info that would allow us to understand what's happening.
It should be the least amount of "maths" calculations by the players as possible.
Combat analysis should be happening in real time, rather than "maths" analysis by players occuring after the encounter ends.
Which is why Steven is against DPS Meters and Combat Trackers.

Ashes will have a personal combat log, so... you can have that open if you wish to do some "maths" during combat.

Ruerik

Its a big world, with all sorts of interests.

Just because you or I dont know a group of people interested in x or y topic, doesnt mean they dont exist.

Just because Im going to be doing maths does nothing for my skill at a game. It just gives me context and understanding of how my skills work, not something you learn without math.

I am a researcher IRL, its a lifestyle that has invaded even my hobbies haha, but I take real world data for whatever I am looking to, break it down into the most basic components, and it gives me insight into how the pieces interact, and more importantly how I can apply those same pieces to other pieces or situations. The same principle applies in video games, and its fun for me.

Korela

Dygz wrote: »

In Ashes, we won't be using "maths" much either because Health will be more graphical than numerical.
We don't need "maths" to help us in combat. And, I don't know that people want those "maths".
Some people don't want Health bars at all.

Numerical Health and Damage numbers are just a quick and easy way to indicate the amount of damage occurring in an encounter because we lack a considerable amount of sensory info that would allow us to understand what's happening.
It should be the least amount of "maths" calculations by the players as possible.
Combat analysis should be happening in real time, rather than "maths" analysis by players occuring after the encounter ends.
Which is why Steven is against DPS Meters and Combat Trackers.

Ashes will have a personal combat log, so... you can have that open if you wish to do some "maths" during combat.

To save time for anyone reading this or planning to respond, could you briefly remind us how you plan to play?

Songcaller

Of course there will be maths. There's a stat school and min/maxing will exist. There will be soft caps and hard caps, thus, maths and formulas will definitely be used.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

This would only apply to instanced encounters and those instanced encounters would only reward cosmetics/titles.

I was considering the viablility of what you were talking up to this point, much as Azherae pointed out, but when I got to this point it became somewhat moot for me - it is a content paradigm I wouldn't play.

Ignoring the fact that the game can't tell me what I did wrong because it doesn't know how I was trying to beat the encounter (combat trackers are less useful if there is just one way to take on an encounter), if the instanced content in the game in question is only offering cosmetics (titles are cosmetics as far as I am concerned), that tells me enough about the developers motives to not be interested in the game.

Content is supposed to reward players in character progression that unlocks the next set of that content type. This applies to leveling, to questing and to raiding. People look at the gear as being the reward, but they are doing it wrong - the gear is the key to the next content.

A game with instanced raids that reward cosmetics clearly doesn't understand this concept, and so I wouldn't be interested.

And an additional question for Noaani. Would you still use your own tracker on top of that for ow stuff, even if it was way easier to parse on the fly?

Yes.

Noaani wrote: »

It is THIS process that is what encounters should be about - not about watching an animation to know what ability is coming.

Noaani wrote: »

This is why I have a dislike to having too much like this built in to the game, and prefer things built in to each encounter.

Maybe I'm mistaken in this take (and I'd ask @Azherae as a third party to check me), but it feels to me that I want a much more difficult and complex design than you, Noaani

To me, "reacting to the ability post-factum" and "every mob has the same basic set of features" seems like the laziest possible game design ever. Maybe I'm just still misunderstanding Noaani's point? Or missing (forgot?) some context?

Perhaps I worded the point I was making there poorly.

I don't want things like cast bars to be a thing in the game because then they are a thing all the time. Anything built in to the games core systems is built in to every encounter by default. I don't want the game itself to have that complexity, because then that complexity is the same in every encounter.

Rather, I want the game itself to be more basic, that way complexity can be built in to each encounter individually - and thus differently

An examples of this could be that some games decide to save development time for encounters by creating a simple formula for working out HP of encounters. Mob level * mob difficulty (ie, solo, group, raid). The problem is, this means every mob at the level cap now has the same number of HP, meaning all other mechanics need to be tuned to the encounter having that many HP.

If you decouple the mobs HP from the game system, and set it to where you want it for that specific encounter, it allows you to create a greater variety of encounters.

This applies to every single thing that is a part of the core game.

To me, the less there is in that core, the more variation and complexity there can be in the games content.

To me, it seems you are keen on a more complex game, either accepting or unaware that this means individual encounters will by necessity be mroe similar. I am the opposite - I want a more simple core game, allowing for far greater variation between individual encounters.

Noaani

Dygz wrote: »

In Ashes, we won't be using "maths" much either because Health will be more graphical than numerical.

No, we still will.

ACT in EQ2 has no access to a mobs HP total, nor remaining HP.

This clearly has not stopped people from using combat trackers - I fail to see why that same restriction would result in a different outcome in Ashes.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

To me, it seems you are keen on a more complex game, either accepting or unaware that this means individual encounters will by necessity be mroe similar. I am the opposite - I want a more simple core game, allowing for far greater variation between individual encounters.

I think we're talking about the same thing. The only thing I'd want "all mobs to have as a base" is hp/mp and good AI. Everything else is a variable, from "this mob only hits you with a stick" to "this boss encounter has 7 personal mechanics to track, 5 party mechanics, 10 raid-wide mechanics, 5 environmental hazards, 7 types of adds - all with their own passives and skills".

This is why I said that I'd want cast bars to be more environmental than purely a UI thing.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

This is why I said that I'd want cast bars to be more environmental than purely a UI thing.

A "cast bar" where the specific mob in question channels in to an orb, the orb gets brighter and then when it hits peak brightness explodes or what ever - sure.

I wouldn't call that a cast bar though - because the channel is the spell that you would want to stop, not the orb.

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

A "cast bar" where the specific mob in question channels in to an orb, the orb gets brighter and then when it hits peak brightness explodes or what ever - sure.

Precisely. Specific to each encounter or at the very least to each type of mob.

Noaani wrote: »

I wouldn't call that a cast bar though - because the channel is the spell that you would want to stop, not the orb.

You can still have several different mechanics linked to stopping this process. One mechanic I mentioned in my discussion with Azherae was "land a certain amount of hits within a period of time" would fit this perfectly. It'd be a personal mechanic for someone and they'd be the ones looking out for that "cast bar". Ideally (imo that is) they'd be the only ones who could even see that cast bar.

Either way, all of this would not be a thing that literally every mob has and always uses. It would all be variables across the board. So I think this was just another misunderstanding.

Songcaller

Too many kicks can destroy a good encounter though. I refer to wild star at the top level.

Edit: I referred to kick backs, not group kicks.

Mag7spy

NiKr wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I just hoped that you understand that what you're asking for has the exact same result as the thing Steven says 'no' to, and some people in this thread have opposed over its long life.

Oh, I can already see Mag saying that I took Noaani's side and betrayed him, that I'm confused and all that good classical Mag stuff. George wouldn't care cause he's just always angy. One might think his name is Bruce, rather than George.

Not really it just means we both have different reasons for what we want. Gameplay where the expectation is to use logs for planning knowing what the encounter does in detail and using exact confirmed information to make a build that preforms better based on that knowledge is boring gameplay with that being the challenge.

Challenge should be about skill, numbers will always be a thing but reducing how people care about it is what is important. While having the overall difficulty of fights be a challenge that takes skill. Even if you were to do the same challenge a second time it still can be a struggle.

Over ok we have logs and adjusted our builds so now its easier to approach the challenge since we know all the mechs as well. And you just since and repeat what you normally do without actual challenge that needs skill.

There is a reason why that was a little voice saying they just need a bunch of content out for raiders constantly even if it is lower quality to keep up with the content they will be completing.

Pretty much I rather have skill and ability be a focus, over math. Math means when you have a solution you have a pathway to the end. Skill means you might see the pathway but the obstacles will interfere from just walking down the path.

Mag7spy

I don't think we are there yet but honestly if the only true way to counter then was to just hide HP bars honestly I'd be fine with that to make tracker hell.

Songcaller

You don't need to know the health or mana to have an active trackers though. Does a bloodhound know how many pints of blood a target has? 🤔

Noaani

Neurath wrote: »

You don't need to know the health or mana to have an active trackers though. Does a bloodhound know how many pints of blood a target has? 🤔

This is one of my main points.

Knowledge isn't the same thing is skill.

Knowing a mob is going to use a specific ability in 3 seconds doesn't mean you are able to deal with that ability. Dealing with the ability is the skill people like Mag want - and is in itself totally unconnected to gaining the information that the ability is about to happen.

The main thing people that say "I want the game to require skill, but don't want trackers" are actually saying is that they don't understand what a tracker does and does not do.

Steven is very much in this group of people, which imo given his influence on this game should have us all somewhat worried (what else is he making uninformed decisions on?).

Ludullu

Mag7spy wrote: »

Over ok we have logs and adjusted our builds so now its easier to approach the challenge since we know all the mechs as well. And you just since and repeat what you normally do without actual challenge that needs skill.

This is why I said that bosses should have some rngness to their ability usage. And with the encounter itself being crazy difficult (the only reason I even agreed to have trackers in this context) - you'd need a ton of attempts on the boss to even see all the skills it has.

And even if you know how to deal with them on their own, there's still a ton of combinations that could trip up your entire raid.

The skill requirement is still there and is still super high. Even if people have the correct numbers it would mean nothing if they don't have the raid-wide coordination required to pull those numbers off.

This is also why I say that this should only apply to instanced stuff. People can attempt it and hone their skill way more times than with ow bosses.

Songcaller

I suggested randomised bosses in the stealth thread. Needless to state, my madness was ignored 😆

George_Black

Dps meters/trackers/combat addons capture the essence of shallow mmos with lacking content for competition, rewards and rivalry.
I thought after 200 people would go back to their lives, but here we are.

George_Black

Also, the image of some of you "studying your data" after playing the game, in order to get better/to get your team better is hilarious.
It's like watching all those pub "pundits" talking about what their sports team needs to get better, while the rest of the gamers are the talented ones, performing successfully ingame without all the pseudo-science.

Azherae

George_Black wrote: »

Dps meters/trackers/combat addons capture the essence of shallow mmos with lacking content for competition, rewards and rivalry.
I thought after 200 people would go back to their lives, but here we are.

Shot-caller's online, let's start the run.

We're in the shallow part right now, so as always we gotta go for Max Deeps.

Should be easier this time since we got NiKr's class change.

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