"Combat pets"

...keeps popping up within the AoC community since the recent interview that Steven gave.

At some point in L2 we all rolled around with combat wolves (the animal that captivates me most in reality) for the dps they added.

We shared xp with our pet wolves (which we had to quest, lv up and gear for) but all in all they made progress faster. And they were EVERYWHERE.

I disagree with combat pets, they steal focus from all classes and they make everybody a summoner.
They are visual clutter.
They are not a new gameplay experience. They are mandatory meta annoyance.

Will it impact negatively animal husbabdry sooo much? I dont think so.

I say we give our feedback.

Why do you like combat pets?
Why dont you like them?
What are the benefits to the game?
What negatives do they bring?
What parameters would make then acceptable IF you dont like them.

Find more posts tagged with

Staff

Comments

Vaknar

Interesting discussion to read through!

I think you ask some excellent questions in your OP -

George_Black wrote: »

Why do you like combat pets?
Why don't you like them?
What are the benefits to the game?
What negatives do they bring?

These questions are great thought-starters for constructive feedback and conversations! However, I do think including "[So far only negative views] in your title might skew or affect the kind of conversations that happen here. Though, this may have been the intent

Another question I might add to this thread is - How would you like to see Combat Pets implemented into Ashes of Creation? Or "In what ways have you seen combat pets utilized well in other MMORPGs?

JamesSunderland

It really depends on how they are implemented and their power potential, L2 pets were basically "make my class a summoner" in terms of power making them "too important" even if completely power creeped and irrelevant in the late game, on the other hand combat pets in Archeage was just an nice extra ~5% DPS with some cool utility skills even if completely power creeped and irrelevant in the late game.

I agree that they certainly devalued Summoner's power in L2, in AA there was just no "Summoner class" to be devalued. If Ashes Lets summoners have Summons and combat pets out at the same time(unlike L2) and properly balance them similarly to AA combat pets maintaining late game relevancy, i think it will be fine.

Aszkalon

I can understand, that if you for Example want a "Tank-like Pet" - if you are a Range-Class and probably don't survive much Punishment/Melee Damage on your Character.

Like a Hunter in WoW, for Example.

But then i heard it "weakens" your Character's Strength to some Extent, if you split your Character into itself "AND" a Combat Pet ... ...

So that sounds balanced, at least. S~oooooooooo,
everyone can have " ONE " Pet, right ?

Summoners can have Three Summons. Plus if they can have "one Combat Pet", they can have four Units around them that fight for them, right ?

In Loyalty to my edgy Avatar,
-> if i would play a Necromancer : and sadly i would need to become an "evil" (lol) one so i can have my nice Undeads a.k.a. Skellies, Zombies etc. instead of "Spirits",

i am VERY curious if a Necromancer-type Summoner could have an "undead" kind of Battle Pet. It would fit into his very Lore, Style, Atmosphere and Being.

For Summoners at least, i think a Battle Pet wouldn't be so bad. Makes Sense for some Classes more than others, i think.

For Example " Rogues " - i can hardly imagine that they would EVER - want a Pet.

Are they not sneaky ?
Do they do not want to sneak around mostly "alone" - so they are harder to catch in the Act ?

I could imagine a "magical kind of Familiar" for a Mage, Sorcerer, Wizard, etc. But for someone like a Rogue ? Hmmm.

Ruerik

Vaknar wrote: »

Another question I might add to this thread is - How would you like to see Combat Pets implemented into Ashes of Creation? Or "In what ways have you seen combat pets utilized well in other MMORPGs?

Since 'none' isnt an option here.

They should be no more than annoyance, and die easily to cleave damage.

Imagine, If a necromancer is going to send a group of zombies to attack me, then these should be weak, easily dispatched creatures that can be accidentally killed, and the only impact they have on me is to slow me down just enough for the necromancer to do some action.

Basically, combat pets should work like a very minor form of soft CC (slows, with minor damage, but more importantly something a player can dodge or destroy), and should not do enough damage to win fights just because they exist. (Age of conan necromancer in the first year of the game was pretty nuts in pvp, I hope to never see something that crazy again)

Aszkalon

Taerrik wrote: »

Since 'none' isnt an option here.

They should be no more than annoyance, and die easily to cleave damage.

Jepp. Problem solved.

Caww

my two cents for the Dev Report: I have no issues with combat pets regardless or not if they are very effective or barely there, just sayin'...

Mag7spy

George_Black wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Pets make money with skins and such, there will be time put into it of course but I don't think they are going out of their way with it. They have made a lot of ribs, a lot of creatures that they can reskin or not. And have them as pets Part of the reason why I backed them was I feel they are looking at the longer kind of vision plan with content creature and ensuring they have a strong base.

IE a lot of exotic rigs for unique creatures, saves a lot of time. It helps the overall base of the game be more beefy when it comes to creating more content quickly that does not feel the same over and over again.

Why cant people form normal sentenses?
"They sold skins so they will be in the game". Business wise makes sense, even though you made a false connection to simple pets there.

"Content" "solid base" vague words....
Say what you wanna say.

I don't blame you for not understanding.

Ill keep it simple, some hard dev work is out of the way so alot of the game will be better for it with more variety.

I hope that is boomer proof.

Caww

George_Black wrote: »

Why cant people form normal sentenses?

People that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones....

"Why can't people use spell check when forming normal sentences?"

Sorry, had to go there... no offense, continue on.....

George_Black

Nyce Gaming https://www.youtube.com/@Nyce-Gaming
No1 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8oZcQku83Z8DSGwrNFKqhg
SticQeno https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbBOCxsnKoR73RWnCr-yhCQ
For those interested in more competitive topics on AoC, check out these guys.

A member of their community called Nibiru97 had an idea that I liked and I might expand upon.
He/she said that that summoner secondary should allow combat pets.
To build up on this concept here is my take: perhaps only people with summoner secondary could sacrifice the class combo selection and reward themselves with unique access to combat pets, without having to be a summoner main (which is the playstyle that controls minions).

Players that have as secondary the summoner should be allowed to use combat pets, should unlock quests that enable them to craft and equip gear on their combat pets. Whether they bred them, or purchased them from a player that does animal husbandry, is of little concern.
Only players with secondary summoner could use them. The rest of the player base should get a system warning "not applicable" or whatever.
Players with summoner as secondary should be allowed to control one combat pet at the time. Those pets shouldn't have many functions, as not to encroach on the summoners, but they should have solid stats.

Imo, such should be the differences between classes. Not always combat related. Such should be the variety.

Aszkalon

Caww wrote: »

I have no issues with combat pets regardless or not if they are very effective or barely there, just sayin'...

This might change, if " H~UUUUUUUUUUGE " Amounts of Players battle in a Siege of defending and/or conquering a City/Node,

and if " Battle-Pets " are allowed, the sheer Numbers of Polygons, Models, etc. - suddenly DOUBLES when even the strongest Gaming Computers had all their Hands full animating and displaying all the massive Battle on Screen,

you know - Spells, AoE-Effects and all kinds of Graphics included.

. 😅

That being said,
i could imagine that for Siege-Battles or other Occassions were HUGE Amounts of Players are gathered, Battle-Pets could be disabled as an Option to use - at least in the Zones affected.

Might not be in the Game at Release.

But could come later on. All is possible.

Taaku

Vaknar wrote: »

Another question I might add to this thread is - How would you like to see Combat Pets implemented into Ashes of Creation? Or "In what ways have you seen combat pets utilized well in other MMORPGs?

The best way i've seen them implemented is when they are just stat buffs... but even then i'd rather those buffs just be part of the class i'm playing. Sorry to say but combat pets are just a waste. It's a waste of server resources calculating all the extra entities and actions, it's visual clutter, and it takes power away from the players themselves, and it's a waste of dev time.
I understand the fantasy of having a battle pet beside you that you command around that does crazy damage, but again... that is what summoner classes are for.

Freemeta

-Maybe combat pet could replace the character, so no visual cluster etc.
-Another idea: could replace weapons. instead of fighting with an axe it's your combat pet doing Auto attack and combo.
-Being a "special archetype" not a summoner (could be a shapeshifter, beastmaster etc) like Blue mage in FF14.

Songcaller

Freemeta wrote: »

-Maybe combat pet could replace the character, so no visual cluster etc.
-Another idea: could replace weapons. instead of fighting with an axe it's your combat pet doing Auto attack and combo.
-Being a "special archetype" not a summoner (could be a shapeshifter, beastmaster etc) like Blue mage in FF14.

If I could go hands free (as in just have hands for magic with no weapon showing) by having a combat pet I would consider a combat pet. However, most people who are pet players will just go Summoner. I plan to go Summoner too.

Voirak

George_Black wrote: »

He/she said that that summoner secondary should allow combat pets.
To build up on this concept here is my take: perhaps only people with summoner secondary could sacrifice the class combo selection and reward themselves with unique access to combat pets, without having to be a summoner main (which is the playstyle that controls minions).

That could actually work well.

Maybe it could be combined with the following idea, to make it a little less rigid anti-pet:

Pets merged with Master / Pets as deliverers of additional active skills

Have pets merge with the character in such a way, that the pet adds a few (2-5) additional skills, that can be used during other attacks/spells used by the character.
The summoner (primary and secondary) class would enable the master to also summon a pet (either one in addition to the one that is merged with the character or just replace that one but be more effective as a pet out in the field).

That way we would be able to choose some pet, have skills that are in a way cast by the pet but from the direction of the character and there wouldnt be much clutter.

Further thoughts

instant summon please
long summon cast times and animations are just annoying and add nothing to the gameplay.

No loss of buffs on death or when recalled
Again that would just be annoying.

Pets shouldnt replace classes

Obviously. I think pets should rather double down on the masters strengths instead of complementing them.
Maybe some skills that mimic certain skills of the master or depend on the master's class could help to achieve that.
I'm not too rigid with respect to this aspect. I think having the opportunity to make up some weaknesses of a party (because a class is missing) by using certain kinds of pets might be nice and not gamebreaking, but it really should be within clear boundaries.

keep the size of pets reasonable

There is no need to design higher tier pets to be huge ass skyscrapers.

_____

Btw, did Steven actually state that summoner will be a pet class for sure?

Songcaller

Voirak wrote: »

George_Black wrote: »

He/she said that that summoner secondary should allow combat pets.
To build up on this concept here is my take: perhaps only people with summoner secondary could sacrifice the class combo selection and reward themselves with unique access to combat pets, without having to be a summoner main (which is the playstyle that controls minions).

That could actually work well.

Maybe it could be combined with the following idea, to make it a little less rigid anti-pet:

Pets as deliverers of additional active skills

Have pets merge with the character in such a way, that the pet adds a few (2-5) additional skills, that can be used during other attacks/spells used by the character.
The summoner (primary and secondary) class would enable the master to also summon a pet (either one in addition to the one that is merged with the character or just replace that one but be more effective as a pet out in the field).

That way we would be able to choose some pet, have skills that are in a way cast by the pet but from the direction of the character and there wouldnt be much clutter.

Further thoughs

instant summon please
long summon cast times and animations are just annoying and add nothing to the gameplay.

No loss of buffs on death or when recalled
Again that would just be annoying.

Pets shouldnt replace classes

Obviously. I think pets should rather double down on the masters strengths instead of complementing them.
Maybe some skills that mimic certain skills of the master or depend on the master's class could help to achieve that.
I'm not too rigid with respect to this aspect. I think having the opportunity to make up some weaknesses of a party (because a class is missing) by using certain kinds of pets might be nice and not gamebreaking, but it really should be within clear boundaries.

keep the size of pets reasonable

There is no need to design higher tier pets to be huge ass skyscrapers.

_____

Btw, did Steven actually state that summoner will be a pet class for sure?

You might find this link to be helpful:

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Summoner

We don't know much about the summoner pets specifically. Some summoners might not have a pet.

Ace1234

They are not a new gameplay experience. They are mandatory meta annoyance.

You could literally say that about any combat function. With that attitude everything should just be removed. That's like saying "class abilities, weapons, dodge rolling, blah blah blah is all just a recycled meta annoyance"

As with most mechanics, there isn't anything intrinsically wrong with pets, its all dependant on how well its executed by the devs.

They simply need to be designed to not to be an automatic meta choice, so that they are not mandatory and overused (which is exactly what they are doing through designing them as sideways progression instead of vertical). As to whether "its not a new experience", "new" isn't necessarily the standard for quality. If the mechanic is designed well and implemented to make the combat more fun then yes it should be included regardless of whether it is new or not. Besides that, the inclusion of it could actually very well make for a "new" experience depending on how it interacts with the combat system as a whole to potentially create a unique combat experience.

As far as the "class identity", thats like saying "why have melee weapons on mages, that takes away from fighter class" or "why have shields on rangers, that takes away from tank class". It literally has no impact on class identity, because classes can specialize in a certain style regardless of whether those mechanics are present on other types of classes. The same applies to combat pets on non-summoner classes. Again, this is simply an overall combat discussion of how combat pets influence the combat experience between all the classes, regardless of specialization and class identity, which, if they are implemented well I have no issue with them.

George_Black

Tldr. "The visual clutter that is combat pets needs to be implemented properly".
Moving on.

Liniker

Vaknar wrote: »

Another question I might add to this thread is - How would you like to see Combat Pets implemented into Ashes of Creation? Or "In what ways have you seen combat pets utilized well in other MMORPGs?

I would prefer no pets at all, but since they will be a thing, I hope they only have maybe 2~3 max skills that we would be adding to our kit and could place on auto-use, so that it won't be annoying for us who don't want to micro-manage a pet during combat,

I think battle pets should provide very minor benefits, to the point that not having one is not putting you at a disadvantage, and for people that like them, they could still have something, overall, I hope not too much time and investment goes to combat pets, there's already way too many things in the game I'd rather have a solid MVP and a very basic battle pet system, that isn't an inconvenience if we feel forced to use it

Noaani

Like others, my issue with pets is that in every game I've played they have either been pointless (Archeage), or required (early casters in Rift).

If pets are going to be a thing, having one up should slow your casting, or lower your damage - or something similar. Make it so having a battle pet is a trade off, you lose some of your power, but in return you gain that pet that may have abilities you don't.

This makes it an actual choice, which is far better than either worthless or required.

unknownsystemerror

Noaani wrote: »

Like others, my issue with pets is that in every game I've played they have either been pointless (Archeage), or required (early casters in Rift).

If pets are going to be a thing, having one up should slow your casting, or lower your damage - or something similar. Make it so having a battle pet is a trade off, you lose some of your power, but in return you gain that pet that may have abilities you don't.

This makes it an actual choice, which is far better than either worthless or required.

Like most things, it has been discussed and put out there already. People tend to comment first, and research last. Most of the previous posts in this have already been ruled out or debunked. But hey, why stifle discourse. Let your freak flag fly.

Combat pets, which can be acquired by any archetype- and this is essentially an item that exists within your backpack- you cast the item to summon your pet. When it is summoned it's not intended to be a vertical gain of power, because when you make combat pets a vertical power gain, then it becomes a no choice solution: you must have a combat pet if you want to play efficiently- you must have a combat pet; and I wanted to steer clear of that because the way I wanted to approach combat pets was more of a horizontal power choice; meaning: depending on the type of encounter you're facing, depending on the threat assessment you have, a combat pet might be relevant, or it might not. One combat combat pet might be more relevant than another combat pet and that's part of your gear acquisition, your item chase to attain this more comprehensive selection of combat pets that you can have available to you and can be summoned in the event that you want to engage an encounter with a different aspect of your power curve: Not vertical, but horizontal.[1] – Steven Sharif

Combat pets generally have a horizontal progression, not a vertical one. Unlike Summoner summons, combat pets do not increase a player's power, but instead require a sacrifice from the player.[2][3][1][4][5]

Child Item