IDEA for tanking in PvP

What if taunting players made them do slightly increased damage to the tank and substantially less damage to others for the duration. Instead of forcing players to attack the tank rather, allow the players the opportunity to "mess up" or try and "burst down" the tank. I think freedom is always the best option because it allows people to reward and/or punish themselves

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LuciFury

Voeltz wrote: »

Warhammer Online had this and it worked very well. Tanks were relevant and necessary in both PvE and PvP. This corresponds perfectly with the recent Cleric update showcasing their theme of dual purpose abilities.

I am disappointed that I was never aware of Warhammer the MMO, when I hear Warhammer I always think console game. It seems like these guys perhaps shared the same TANK frustrations that I do!

Raven016

TruckerLuci wrote: »

Raven016 wrote: »

I think tank should tank just like healer heals.
The difference is that healer heals after the damage. The tank should do it before.

I think that is the general idea, this suggestion is a way to accomplish that goal

The healer has two ways to heal: targeting directly a player or casting an AoE. I don't really like AoEs.
Probably for tanks AoEs make more sense but I still don't like them.
I would prefer a solution where the tank really blocks the incoming damage by being between the attacker and the player he tries to protect.

Rym

Aion had a good idea of balancing the Templar in PVP, as the main tank of the game.

You could bodyguard your teammate, taking 100% of all damage they receive, reduce the damage taken of your teammates, stun and CC your opponents while dealing a medium amount of damage to them.

Ashes could definitely do something similar.

Songcaller

I have highlighted warhammer online for tank and cleric before...no investment or response yet.

CaNp0G

Tanking in many PvP games boils down to them being the obstacle between their enemies and their squishier, backline teammates like dps/heal casters.
This is kinda done in three ways:

1. Soaking damage/cc that could've been used against teammates
2. Peeling "diving" -kind of enemies (charging warriors, assassins) off said squishies
3. Bogging enemies down into combat near them, away from teammates and into a good spot, allowing casters to maybe concentrate aoe there.

For 1. we have seen some tools in the tank showcase like the grit system.
For 2. the tank should have some kind of a zoning ability, possibly to knock enemies back and keeping them from getting behind them towards the backline. These would probably be used more as a reaction to an immediate threat, and would also include hard CC effects like stuns and why not even disarms.
3. Is where I feel taunts in PvP would come to play. After you've made contact with an enemy with some kind of a smack-to-the-face stun and stopped them from going at your backline, I feel taunt is what would be good next. So here goes:

Taunting in PvP would taunt enemies in an aoe around or in front of you. When they move towards you, they gain bonus movespeed (and possibly dmg or attack speed bonuses if not too unbalanced). When they move away from you, they move much slower than normal. This way they will not be rooted in place attacking you, but rather free to try and move away from aoe spells if they can, but at a much slower speed. This movement slow would also make it much harder for melee enemies to initiate on your backline.

If we play around with player choice a bit more regarding the effects, why not have the taunt debuff timer decrease a bit while the taunted enemy is damaging or attacking the tank?
This would result in the taunted enemy having to decide if they want to attack the tank, getting out of the taunt debuff sooner, while simultaneously letting the tank soak their damage, or do something else and remain in the debuff longer.

Aszkalon

TruckerLuci wrote: »

I would also like to add
-ability to cast a buff on an ally that creates a link either sharing the dmg or taking it entirely for a short duration.

I liked that kinda Buff in WoW, when You could overtake (i think it was ... ) 30% of the Damage that your Ally takes for him, if you blessed him with a certain kind of Paladin Buff before.

If for Example a genuine "Tank" gets as Sub/Second-Class "Cleric" or so -> meaning giving the Tank some kind of Holy/Paladin-kind of Vibe,

why not let Tanks who "have" this Second-Class, have this cool Buff they can quickly cast on every Ally they want -> ensuring that part of the Damage this Ally takes, is transfered over to them instead ?

It would be sweet for the Tank - and HELLA annoying for enemy hostile Player that gives his best to go around the Tank and attack the Tank's Allies.

Isth3reno1else

On Eso we actually had a set that did this. Using a taunt skill on an enemy allowed them to do 100% more dmg to you, but debuffed enemy dmg to your allies by 50%.

It was extremely effective mitigation, but the issue was that tanks didn't like the idea of taking damage, haha. I never saw the set in pvp unless I ran it myself.

Maybe something along those lines but a smaller buff with a lower downside, so that tanks still feel tanky.

NyceGaming

TruckerLuci wrote: »

What if taunting players made them do slightly increased damage to the tank and substantially less damage to others for the duration. Instead of forcing players to attack the tank rather, allow the players the opportunity to "mess up" or try and "burst down" the tank. I think freedom is always the best option because it allows people to reward and/or punish themselves

This was one of my suggestions I made in a video about 2 months ago inspired by a set in the elder scrolls online named vangaurds challenge. “Taunting a player causes them to deal 35% less damage to other players, but 35% more to you as long as you remain within 28 meters”
Taunts or threats use in true pvx scenarios is important. Many suggestions as well as the quote from Steven on making tanks viable in PvP included in video below. Hope it helps progress this post and brings our concerns back to light. (Apologies if not allowed)

https://youtu.be/neZWKAvt1Jk?si=c-7BCwYLxEcp0mV_

Dygz

GFKilla wrote: »

I think its doable, it just needs a new frame of thinking.

A frame that moves the game even farther from being an RPG and closer to being an FPS.

Solvryn

Isth3reno1else wrote: »

On Eso we actually had a set that did this. Using a taunt skill on an enemy allowed them to do 100% more dmg to you, but debuffed enemy dmg to your allies by 50%.

It was extremely effective mitigation, but the issue was that tanks didn't like the idea of taking damage, haha. I never saw the set in pvp unless I ran it myself.

Maybe something along those lines but a smaller buff with a lower downside, so that tanks still feel tanky.

I knew a few guys that permanently wore this set. Couldn’t kill the tank because the healer he was tethered too couldn’t die.

Ruerik

This is very near what SWTOR tanks do. Instead of forced targetting or forced movement, tank taunts in PVP caused the enemy to do reduced damage to anyone except the tank.

The tank could also throw a guard (similar to FF14 cover) on a ally, and reduce damage that ally took by redirecting it to the tank... who would then use defensive cooldowns to further reduce damage to itself.

SWTOR pvp was one of the best games I enjoyed pvp in because of this actually. The only games that topped it for me was Wildstar (rest in peace forever my favorite game), and Tera. Gods I miss my wildstar Engineer.

The end result though, was that enemy players still had agency to keep attacking what they were attacking if they wanted to do reduced damage to it, or they could save their resources until the taunt wore off, or they could dump them into the tank and hope for the best, it was great.

Xeeg

Why not just damage redirection mechanics? I had a post on this a while back and think it would be a good element to a game like this.

You could cast it on an enemy to redirect their damage dealt, cc, player affecting spells to you or another team mate. You could cast it on an ally to redirect the same types of things from you to them. There are lots of permutations and combinations of abilities throughout the game that could do this functionality.

Raven016

Xeeg wrote: »

Why not just damage redirection mechanics? I had a post on this a while back and think it would be a good element to a game like this.

You could cast it on an enemy to redirect their damage dealt, cc, player affecting spells to you or another team mate. You could cast it on an ally to redirect the same types of things from you to them. There are lots of permutations and combinations of abilities throughout the game that could do this functionality.

I think it would be one of the good solutions.
There might be other ones too which would require the team members run to a safer spot, near the tank or where the tank created a protection area or a wall.

Barab

The Ironbreaker in Warhammer Online was by far one of the best tank class designs in an mmo to date.

Isth3reno1else

Solvryn wrote: »

Isth3reno1else wrote: »

On Eso we actually had a set that did this. Using a taunt skill on an enemy allowed them to do 100% more dmg to you, but debuffed enemy dmg to your allies by 50%.

It was extremely effective mitigation, but the issue was that tanks didn't like the idea of taking damage, haha. I never saw the set in pvp unless I ran it myself.

Maybe something along those lines but a smaller buff with a lower downside, so that tanks still feel tanky.

I knew a few guys that permanently wore this set. Couldn’t kill the tank because the healer he was tethered too couldn’t die.

Yep this is exactly what we did. It was silly

chibibree

This was fun to talk about last week on our podcast and @Virtek agreed for the most part. The only thing he wasn't as big of a fan of was the "taking more damage" and as a healer, I can agree that it would be a little nerve-wracking if the tank suddenly was taking a lot of damage. Though, I could see a reduced amount of damage to other members besides the tank. It was an interesting thought, thank you for sharing!

Raven016

The tank could focus on improving plate armor in the team, based on what kind of armor he himself has.
If the tank has armor with high defense against piercing damage but weak against slashing damage, he should be able to go near a team member and either passively or actively increase that player's armor against piercing damage. Or it could also work as a generated item which players can chose to equip or activate at the right moment to cancel specific damage types.
If the tank would "generate" some plates which he could use himself but chose to give them to other team members, it would be the case from the OP, where he suggested "slightly increased damage to the tank and substantially less damage to others "
Maybe the player who received such a "plate" from the tank, could even give it further to somebody else nearby.

DesertFang

tautau wrote: »

GFK, I would think that in a PvP fight over a raid, the victory itself should be the reward. The winners have the opportunity for the raid loot.

I don't think that a complicated system like you propose is needed. After all, when you have a complex system, you also bring the opportunity to come up with some way to game the system, right?

Yes I agree. The only reason I think the idea if proposed will work is if it is instanced. Open world PVP will always be kill the squishy damage dealers/healers first.

In this instance the only thing I can think of that really provides and incentive to go after the tank is if they somehow offer supporting boons to healers and damage dealers.

No one is going to want to deplete their cooldowns on a tank that is taking 75% reduced damage with their own tanking cool downs.

The question that needs to be asked is "what does the tank provide in PVP, and why are the a high value target to eliminate?"

The tank needs to be made a high value target first and foremost. If its capture the flag then the tank needs to be holding the flag. If its king of the hill then the tank needs to somehow help his teammates take reduced damage.

Healers are eliminated because they heal.
Damage is eliminated because they deal damage.
Tanks need to be eliminated because they tank.

IDK its a tough balance .

Alhem

Zipp_Adoudel wrote: »

A tank in albion is someone with a ton of armor/damage mitigation, first to go into combat and uses a weapon that groups the enemy, like an AOE pull or it can be a single target disrupt/stun. The tank is used as the engage or as a disrupt since skills can be interrupted by stuns or CC.

Yep, tanks seemed to have an important role in PVP in Albion. Works fine like that. As it is the engager the enemies have the choice to focus the tank as it is the closest and it is causing havoc or they can ignore the tank and try to reach for the more squishy targets. I don't see why it has to be more complicated than that. I can't remember tanks having a 35 seconds stun lock ability, and that would of course be boring.

I would rather see the tank protect the team with actual gameplay, rather than casting a spell that dampens the damage to other characters on the team. A spell like that could be a fringe spell for certain specs, but it sounds a bit boring as an important gameplay mechanic to me. Also, it might encourage a tank to be behind the squishy targets and not in front.

ThamonRa

Formation moves and skills/spells.

Atleast that's what I got out of one of the tanks PvE shield skill or spell.

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