From the Ashes - Difficulty Philosophy Discussion

Every game we play has some form of challenge. From the most basic of completion, such as jumping until you hit the top of a flag.. To the most challenging and skill intensive battles of bullets between competitors.

Overcoming or mastering these challenges is what forms CORE memories. Feeling a true love for a game, feeling like it provides real, actual, psychological satisfaction.. is from making perfectly balanced challenges to overcome.

As we know in the world of MMORPGS we tend to pull Ideas, Information and Mechanics from every kind of game.

Written By: ChaosFactor |- - - - - - -| Recent Update: 09/25/2023

Glorious explorers of Verra, I have brought you all here today to talk to you about overcoming adversities in video games. With the release of Alpha 2 at least relatively within view, I find it paramount that we begin to put deep and intensive thought into the core philosophies of the game. Evidently these concepts have had a lot more professional attention from the amazing developers at Intrepid than I could ever provide... But I'll be damned if I don't have a great time writing and researching for a game I know I will love, and for a community that loves to do the same.

Let me be clear from the gate, this is not a post about being elitist relative to challenge within games or MMORPGs in general. This is intended on observing the benefits and drawbacks of certain challenge systems associated with those games. Every MMO player has experienced this sort of elitism in their own respective game. Here, I'll include some quotes for you all to read simply to boil the pot a little bit before we even get started:

1. "You're such a casual, clear the raid on Giga-Mega Mythic+ Challenge mode before you even type in my chat"
2. "Margott is not hard at all, you're just trash. I killed them on my first try with bamboo armor and a paper straw"
3. "You're not playing Purple Blade Ranger with max crit build, so you're not worth an invite."

Ultimately, outside of being badly worded, these elitists aren't wrong for saying these things. At their core, people get passionate and aggressive about their achievements because it took them a lot of effort to achieve them. However, the problem that I'm sure we are all familiar with, is that is not always the truth. Often there are systems, information, and word of mouth that leads to there being CORRECT answers to whether or not you're good at the game. Many games will ALSO create complex, near infinite reward systems that tunnel your gameplay down a singular path to become the best.

Small warning here, I am by far most knowledgeable about World of Warcraft, it may seem obvious that I reference it often, but I will do my best to speak through my experience; and media consumption of other games in our genre.

My thoughts on this topic have been a long time coming. I'm deeply passionate about ensuring that there are ways for every player to enjoy amazing games like Ashes. That being said my desire to create a discussion on this topic was driven to creation via watching a reaction video by Asmongold on a JohnStrifeHayes video on overcoming diversity. Yes I am referencing reaction content instead of the original content by JSH because instead of just getting to reference one MMORPG expert discussing a topic, you get to see the compounding thoughts of both in a single video. Flame me if you'd like.

https://youtu.be/t41ZIREc988?si=FgfpLuwtG2ferfuP

Many of us return home after a long day of work and immediately sit down at our PC because we want to relax. You want to turn off all brain effort, and simply exist in a beautiful world that a group of incredible people made for you. What we also can't forget, is that there are people that are itching their arms to get back home. They chug 20 oz of coffee in the middle of the day, because as soon as they get home they're going to grind until the minute they're asleep way too late in the night. Everything that gaming has taught us recently is that these two people have to experience the game in different ways:

{-} PvPers are given tokens to purchase more powerful gear to be better in PvP.
{-} Raiders and Dungeon delvers are given infinitely scaling items to make big number bigger.
{-} Harvesters and crafters are seen exclusively as cogs in the machine of economy, where they simply pawn off single BiS items to players in the occupations above.
{-} Those who spend their time exploring the open world simply participating in questing and world events are given nothing but the satisfaction of completionism.

In the modern era of gaming, we're taught that all of these things need to be separated, and the challenges should be relatively easy to achieve because players should not be restricted to gaining power in a single occupation. Remember that ultimately, although you can achieve greatness in just one aspect of a game, it will feel meaningless unless it somehow impacts the world as a whole. When the endgame of an MMO is split into separated forms of success (Getting gear capped in PvP means nothing to raids, and vice versa) then the player base will inevitably be segmented, players will be ostracized, and the game WILL die.

Gaining power meaning: Having gear/stats that allow you to compete at the highest level of gameplay (Node sieges, Castle Raids, Guild v Guild wars, etc.

Steven Sharif and Intrepid studios as a whole are some of the first people in a long time to say that you will NOT be allowed to do it all. Although all of the major forms of endgame content involve participation in PvP, it should ABSOLUTELY NOT imply that the only useful or included players are those who participate primarily or exclusively in PvP.

"The way that Ashes is constructed is there are multiple paths of progression from a from a PvX perspective, a kind of wide net perspective that players have interest in; and you're not going to be able to become the master of everything. So you're going to have to pick and choose, but even picking and choosing that gives you a place within that aspect of the world at a place that's going to be something that you can build up a reputation around"

Steven Sharif - Livestream December 23 2021

This quote is included on the "Progression" page on the AoC Wiki (Thanks Lex) which obviously I will be constantly be referencing to as it is the most closely related wealth of information related to this discussion.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Progression

Ashes of Creation finally gives us the opportunity to free ourselves from the shackles of "Make everyone happy and maximize hours played.". I'm sure that quote resonates with nearly everyone reading this post, because virtually every single game in the modern era made by large or AAA studios LIVES by these conditions. It's obvious why they have to design their game that way, their bosses, bosses, boss has to make sure that his investor doesn't pull. Well what does that mean? Make big pretty graph for wall street man so he can fund our studio. (And their new Yacht) BUT NO LONGER! We're here to create greatness.

There is one clear rule to providing satisfaction in a multiplayer game. Equality of Opportunity NOT Equality of Outcome.

Remember people, we're talking about videogames here.

A player should feel satisfaction from whatever gameplay path they choose, because off in the distance, in the fields of golden grass over the horizon, there is something worth fighting for. You may feel some extent of this when playing recent MMOs, you could complete Uber Lilith in D4, Finishing an Ultimate raid in FF14, completing the nudist challenge in WoW Hardcore. Each one of these challenges has certain aspects of it that make it satisfying. You may have just completed them because you're just really damn good at the game. You may have completed them because you spent hours grinding on an alt so you could fill your main with so many buffs and elixirs that it took you virtually no effort. Or you just had the wherewithal too just punch the same boar over and over and over and over again to avoid unnecessary risk.

These are the concepts that I want to quantify and define, to get to the core of a fairly balanced, but challenging game.

Knowledge:
Represents the player's ability to gather an intensive amount of information in order to complete a set of guidelines in order to achieve the ultimate goal.
Example: Discovering every single location of Smithing Stones in Elden ring, enabling you to easily cap your gear stats to make the completion of the game easier. Then finding the best possible location to grind the highest output of runes to cap your players stats.

Persistence:
Represents the player's ability to repeat the same process over and over again in order to complete a set of guidelines in order to achieve the ultimate goal.
Example: A player wants to build a castle in Minecraft. They require 200k blocks to complete this. Rather than learning the games systems, building an exp farm, building a villager farm for capped enchants, moving through the games progression to capped gear, etc. the player instead crafts 30 iron pickaxes, sips his beer, listens to classic rock and starts mining.

Skill:
Represents the player's ability to simply dig deep and focus, master every immediate mechanic in order to complete a set of guidelines to achieve the ultimate goal.
Example: After a reset occurs on Rust, a player collects the MINIMUM required gear for them to clear oil rig. While other players are spending their time gathering resources, he clears rig using nothing but cloth armor, a bow, and simple explosives.

Do you think there should be more definitions added to my acronym? Pleas let me know in the comments below so we can expand our understanding of the subject!

So why is KPS so important to the satisfaction we gain from becoming the best of the best?
Because every single player should have the OPPERTUNITY to achieve greatness. If every single aspect of the game possess these three components of challenge as an OPTION to achieve the highest point, then every player will have a path to extreme satisfaction. I will provide direct examples of KPS being applied to every single aspect of the game in threads included below here if you wish to dive into further detail:

PvE (Dungeons/Raids):
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/56357/from-the-ashes-pve-challenges-kps#latest
PvW (Crafting/Questing):
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/56359/from-the-ashes-pvw-challenges-kps#latest
PvP (Open World/Arena/Sieges):
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/56358/from-the-ashes-pvp-challenges-kps#latest

Now I am obligated to distinguish the difference between this concept and my grief with modern day games. I clearly established before that I DO NOT want there to be access to achieve the highest standard in every aspect of the game. KPS should be applied in order to regulate the degree of challenge associated with different gameplay types. That way, there is no question that players participating in different aspects of the game, deserve the same LEVEL of reward as any other player. This way we can ensure that the reward structure is THE SAME throughout every version of gameplay. This however should not bottleneck everyone into the same eventual game. The rewards should be virtually identical in power level/balance, however should be deeply flavored according to the method of acquisition.

There should be immediate rewards for overcoming any form challenge. Common Achievement can be provided through simple gameplay mechanics, such as player housing, gold, and cosmetics. These are points of satisfaction will be immediate but minimal. This aspect of challenge completion is rarely mistaken as an endgame, but does occur on occasion. These achievements should act as a gateway drug in the game. They will give a taste of satisfaction from the game, which will convince you to look towards much higher achievements.

{-} Any KPS
{-} No specific system

In more practical terms, this could be represented by Epic Gear. To be the most powerful player in the game you have to be complete with a set of Epic gear. The mistake made by modern games is that these Epic item rewards are COMPLETELY dependent on which aspect of the game you're participating in. When a player reaches Epic Achievement they should be at an equal level with the VAST MAJORITY of players participating in the game. Epic Achievement should be acquirable through any method of KPS through any aspect of the game.

{-} Any KPS
{-} No specific system

Here begins the Achievements that a more limited audience of people with extreme commitment will become incredibly satisfied. The players that can Achieve this should in fact be limited in numbers intentionally. It should be uncommon for a player to run into these players, and therefore should result in core memories. These challenges should have exceptionally lofty applications of KPS to ensure that those that are able to achieve them is limited. A mistake commonly made by modern games is that these players are not rare, they're a significant chunk of the player base. Rather than being astounded that an individual is as powerful they are in PvP, you resent even committing to that version of the game because you're crushed under the boot of the part of the population that have already achieved this. The rewards for this system should be specific to the system of the game, but still achievable through any KPS.

{-} Any KPS
{-} Specific system

These levels of achievement are what gaming articles will be written about. They don't need to have an in game reward that is practical to the player whatsoever. They should be exceptionally hard and completing them is the reward in itself. Often these challenges aren't even a part of the game, but something exceptional that a player invents themselves. These systems should take advantage of the EXTREMES of KPS. Perhaps reward a title or a cosmetic to represent that this player has done something absolutely absurd just because they love the game.

{-} Specific KPS
{-} Specific system

If there is any confusion to how I distinguish between these different forms of achievement, please visit the individual forum posts associated with the different aspects of the game. They have very specific examples of the reward structure in each tier of achievement.

Core systems like these are what make or break the games that create history. The games that aren't forgotten no matter how old they are, no matter how many modern iterations of them that are created... they still continue to live and breathe. Classic WoW, CS:GO, Minecraft, Fortnite, they all have unforgettable and indestructible foundations beneath them. We may not be able to be the next game that causes news outlets to complain about the youth skipping school to play games.. but we can always try.

There's nothing quite like letting out the deep breath of relief after completing something that has driven you to your limits. But we HAVE to insure that we reach that goal in a way that promotes accessibility and creativity. "Get good" should never be the response to achievement in an RPG. Even the most casual of players can be enticed to participate in things considered great achievements. Even people participating in completely different realms of gameplay, can stare in awe at achievements of others, because they understand how much it would take to get there on their own.

"Multiple playstyles should be relevant and viable. Additionally, you have a spread between casual players and hard-core players; and most of us exist somewhere on that spectrum. The progression path in a society or religion is more conducive to the time we have to play. Whereas, someone else may be playing several hours a day, and they have a better opportunity for the raid/level progression that might require some more dedication. So we want to have these different progression paths available to accommodate the different times in our lives that we have to play the game. And all of those types of progressions will make us relevant in some way shape or form to the general world."

Steven Sharif - Livestream April 8 2018

It's fairly obvious but I feel like it's needed to say that this entire discussion qualifies as a conversation on VERTICAL PROGRESSION. I feel as if Ashes of Creation needs no assistance in Horizontal Progression. From the very beginning Steven's vision of the game and it's node systems and world evolution, provides for a literally infinite degree of horizontal progression. BUT in order to exist within the amazing systems provided by Steven's great mind, we need to ensure the gameplay surrounding those systems is satisfying. Nodes, freeholds and castles can be as revolutionary as possible, but people will not play the game if it's crunchy, unrewarding, and/or unfair. Developing an amazing reward/challenge system handles at least most of those things. Perhaps not crunchy, but I can't talk about that until we get to play through Alpha 2.

Those are my thoughts, they've been digging their ways through the annals of my mind for many months now, I'm glad I finally decided to sit down and make a proper discussion of them. I'm absolutely excited to hear YOUR thoughts on the system. At some point I plan on doing some practical research and mathematics on the subject. Although I believe core systems and concepts are more important than player behavior, it will always play it's role.

Thank you so much if you spent your time to consume the entirety of my content. Not only do I believe deeply in Ashes of Creation, but as someone who loves the process of creating and the freedom of theory crafting... I could not imagine a better place to call home. Thank you especially to any Intrepid Members that I've had opportunity to spend time with or have taken notice of my content here on the forums.

Please keep in mind I will not be responding to unproductive or toxic comments! I love having conflicting opinions in the comments that I can argue with, but from my experience there are a lot of bad actors on the forums! Please keep it positive below and have a great conversation!

Stay creative, Stay patient, and put your best foot forward,

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Comments

ChaosFactor

NiKr wrote: »

L2 style. Items can drop, but with a fairly low chance (especially on legendaries), while crafting mats are more abundant. Iirc that is the current design already.

I really should do more research into L2 when I theory craft on this game so much. I've played my decent share of Archage but I am reasonably lacking in knowledge when it comes to the other massively influential game on the vision of Ashes.

ChaosFactor

Azherae wrote: »

More on topic actually, I don't like gear rewards from 'Achievements' partially BECAUSE they don't fit my immersion like 90% of the time.

Like, I KNOW that judging ChaosFactor's intent by looking at specifics of the achievements or rewards isn't a reasonable form of conversation, but it still ends up being 'a lot of work for something that will probably break my immersion and probably game balance, targeted at the player type who likes hitting those Achievements on their screen'. I don't mind it if it is somehow done perfectly, but I prefer to hit my Achievements at the Auction House.

NiKr wrote: »

Yeah, I can't relate achievements to items as well. Probably because I'm a Steam enjoyer and there they just exist as a way to show that "I've done this!" and that's it. The reward was the gameplay itself and the achievement is there simply to signify that you participated in said gameplay.

First of all I deeply respect you actually acknowledging my disclaimers provided on the posts. (That is rare to find on the internet unfortunately) I totally see you on this point. It is purely not immersive to have items just spawn into your inventory like they do in other games *cough* WoW and in fact make them feel less like items and more like magical alterations to your stat blocks. I think however that it could be fairly easily addressed by simply creating an in-game aspect to this system. Think a bounty board that has an associated NPC that gives you rewards for a huge cache of loot that adventurers sell off to him.

(Edited to add Nikr's comment as it provides the same sentiment)

Azherae

ChaosFactor wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

More on topic actually, I don't like gear rewards from 'Achievements' partially BECAUSE they don't fit my immersion like 90% of the time.

Like, I KNOW that judging ChaosFactor's intent by looking at specifics of the achievements or rewards isn't a reasonable form of conversation, but it still ends up being 'a lot of work for something that will probably break my immersion and probably game balance, targeted at the player type who likes hitting those Achievements on their screen'. I don't mind it if it is somehow done perfectly, but I prefer to hit my Achievements at the Auction House.

NiKr wrote: »

Yeah, I can't relate achievements to items as well. Probably because I'm a Steam enjoyer and there they just exist as a way to show that "I've done this!" and that's it. The reward was the gameplay itself and the achievement is there simply to signify that you participated in said gameplay.

First of all I deeply respect you actually acknowledging my disclaimers provided on the posts. (That is rare to find on the internet unfortunately) I totally see you on this point. It is purely not immersive to have items just spawn into your inventory like they do in other games *cough* WoW and in fact make them feel less like items and more like magical alterations to your stat blocks. I think however that it could be fairly easily addressed by simply creating an in-game aspect to this system. Think a bounty board that has an associated NPC that gives you rewards for a huge cache of loot that adventurers sell off to him.

(Edited to add Nikr's comment as it provides the same sentiment)

I definitely have no problem with that.

So, to go back to where we might still disagree.

There's an 'achievement' in Elite Dangerous for 'trading with at least five Unique Black Markets'. Except it's not really an 'achievement', it's a requirement to unlock an Engineer. Who is required as a step to unlock another Engineer who requires you to hit the 'Achievement' of 'Sell commodities at a minimum of 50 unique markets'.

And these Engineers then allow you to enhance 'gear' by collecting other 'items' which you may or may not have to do various things for. It's easy for me to not see these as 'Achievements' but they're certainly in the exact same vein as what you describe. They're absolutely vertical progression, too, even though the different choices offered are horizontal relative to each other.

I could even classify some required functions (to obtain the items, which are also their own thing, since you can't even buy them from other players) in KPS terms. Would you say that this fits the same concept as what you're discussing?

Depraved

ChaosFactor wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

yes, i understand your intention. but its still adding vanilla to a chocolate cake. now less people will eat it.

ashes isnt a game for everyone. in fact, no game is a game for everyone. if you try to make a game for everyone, you end up making a game for no one, like the unfortunate misadventures of ags and nw.

ashes gear is obtained by crafting, and access to the crafting resources is obtained by cooperating with your teammates to compete against your enemies to have access to whatever gives you the resources (bosses, mobs, rocks, trees, etc). if you add other methods that remove competition and promote solo play, especially since ashes is balanced around group play (cooperative-competitive) and encourages it, you are going in the opposite direction ashes wants to go!
\\
perhaps it could be modified to go along ashes direction. maybe it could offer beginner gear that everyone can get through a quest or easy achievements (but probably pointless). but whatever it is, it shouldnt offer a progressions or rewards system where people can sit in their little safe space, so that they can get their stuff protected from pvp. god forbid that pve players have to pvp ! oh no!!

I will say by no means do I have intention of making all of these challenge mechanics to be oriented around Solo gameplay. Many of the challenges that I did include as examples include things that are simply designed as group content such as clearing dungeons. I can only assume that many of the other achievements that I would create with intention of gearing would be far more achievable with legitimate cooperation between players.

Honestly part of the reason that I find this system useful is because so much of the core of the game has PvP involved. Although not every player is versed in the PvP experience doesn't mean that we should exclude them from the game. They will be forced to participate, which is what we cannot waver on, but whether or not the participation involved is actually enjoyable for them is a different story. If they're within a reasonable power level with other players through whatever means was most comfortable to them, they will not be pushed away by realizing that all of the end game content is outside of their reach.

i should have clarified. when i say solo i mean not really interacting with others. just buying yourself somewhere away from everyone and getting your stuff. it could be by yourself, in a duo, in a trio or a full party of 8.

anyways, do you think those players who arent versed in pvp will not have to pvp to complete the achievements? other players will be farming in the same dungeons as well (no instances, ashes has open world dungeons), same areas, same mobs, and people will be fighting for spots.

what those players need to do is get over their pvp anxiety. literally no one knows how to play aoc because the game isnt out yet, everyone will start pretty much equally, minus a minority with a2 access. everybody will have to learn how to pvp.

unfortunately, this game isnt oriented to people who dont like pvp or dont wanna pvp. changing the game for those people is actually bad for the game, because its bad for the people who like pvp, friction with other players, competition, etc (main target audience). we dont want a 2nd nw. beautiful game, enjoyable, cool systems, then carebear pressure ruined it.

pve only players arent being excluded. i mean we say the event on the last stream, they can still gather and farm and do all their pve activities, but every now and then they might have to move to another spot, or accept death. or just learn how to pvp like everyone else or sadly, and i dont really like saying the next part but i will, find another game.

ive tried to play final fantasy maybe 5 times now, and its always the same thing, i see a million quests, i finish 1 and get 2 more, i get overwhelmed with the quests and the pve, and im like nope not for me and log off and do somethign else. and this is coming from an ff fan who has every ff from 1-13, including tactics, tactics advance and crystal chronicles. but i dont try to change their pve game for me. im feeling excluded from their game because i like killing mobs, not questing!

no one deserves better treatment than others just because they dont want to participate in X thing. dont add vanilla to the chocolate cake!

pve players best bet to gearing up is to farm and either craft or buy the stuff they cant farm. if you make their gear tied to achievements (and achievements are quests, lets face it) it will even be worse for them to get gear, because now they have to finish the quest, they have to farm at a specific spot that will be contested and there will be pvp and there wont be able to progress. your actually removing their freedom and making it worse for them.

if the gear can be sold and traded, then the achievement system is pointless...they could just go and buy gear in the first place. the point of the system is to get the gear through the achievements...

if the concern is that people might not get some fresh or intermediate level 50 gear because their inability to compete, then just state that as the problem and let IS find the best solution, since they know their game, all the other systems, the full scope, how it will affect other systems, etc, etc. i think its better to just state the problem and let IS find the appropriate solution that goes in the same direction of the game. what we need is a better chocolate cake for chocolate lovers, not vanilla in the chocolate cake.

edit: the reason i strongly pushback against "lets protect the carebears and give them a safe space to farm" ideas its because me and many more have been waiting for an mmorpg like this. we have seen how other games got ruined by the same ideas and we really dont want this to happen to aoc. even l2 got kinda ruined when they started adding instances and all that....

carebears already have plenty of games they can enjoy. people like me have NONE atm (unless we count old l2 p servers but meh). just let me have this one.

i doubt steven will change the game to cater to the anti pvpers, but just in case i need to push back against these ideas.

ChaosFactor

Azherae wrote: »

I definitely have no problem with that.

So, to go back to where we might still disagree.

There's an 'achievement' in Elite Dangerous for 'trading with at least five Unique Black Markets'. Except it's not really an 'achievement', it's a requirement to unlock an Engineer. Who is required as a step to unlock another Engineer who requires you to hit the 'Achievement' of 'Sell commodities at a minimum of 50 unique markets'.

And these Engineers then allow you to enhance 'gear' by collecting other 'items' which you may or may not have to do various things for. It's easy for me to not see these as 'Achievements' but they're certainly in the exact same vein as what you describe. They're absolutely vertical progression, too, even though the different choices offered are horizontal relative to each other.

I could even classify some required functions (to obtain the items, which are also their own thing, since you can't even buy them from other players) in KPS terms. Would you say that this fits the same concept as what you're discussing?

I think that is totally on board with this concept. The majority of the concepts discussed in these threads are formulated around the concept of achievements as a method of convenience. The delivery of these systems is absolutely flexible. If there were an individual NPC created for every single one of these forms of challenge I would be happy for it to appear in that way. I would just ask that whichever system is created, has some sort of transparency. For if the system provided to deliver the KPS system isn't streamlined to some extent, it will get buried by whatever gameplay is presented most clearly to the player. If that makes sense.

Long and storied questlines can most certainly be the most beautiful way to deliver vertical progression in an MMORPG. Personally your example reminds me of Attunement in classic WoW through TBC. The questlines you would have to complete were EXTENSIVE to say the least to unlock some kind of incredibly unique reward. The Scepter of the Shifting Sands is incredibly beautiful in the way it was delivered. In it's case, even understanding the process you would have to go through, would be complicated in itself. That sort of dedication should be rewarded, and it can simply be flavored to appropriately applied to every aspect of KPS.

ChaosFactor

Depraved wrote: »

i should have clarified. when i say solo i mean not really interacting with others. just buying yourself somewhere away from everyone and getting your stuff. it could be by yourself, in a duo, in a trio or a full party of 8.

anyways, do you think those players who arent versed in pvp will not have to pvp to complete the achievements? other players will be farming in the same dungeons as well (no instances, ashes has open world dungeons), same areas, same mobs, and people will be fighting for spots.

//

if the gear can be sold and traded, then the achievement system is pointless...they could just go and buy gear in the first place. the point of the system is to get the gear through the achievements...

if the concern is that people might not get some fresh or intermediate level 50 gear because their inability to compete, then just state that as the problem and let IS find the best solution, since they know their game, all the other systems, the full scope, how it will affect other systems, etc, etc. i think its better to just state the problem and let IS find the appropriate solution that goes in the same direction of the game. what we need is a better chocolate cake for chocolate lovers, not vanilla in the chocolate cake.

edit: the reason i strongly pushback against "lets protect the carebears and give them a safe space to farm" ideas its because me and many more have been waiting for an mmorpg like this. we have seen how other games got ruined by the same ideas and we really dont want this to happen to aoc. even l2 got kinda ruined when they started adding instances and all that....

carebears already have plenty of games they can enjoy. people like me have NONE atm (unless we count old l2 p servers but meh). just let me have this one.

i doubt steven will change the game to cater to the anti pvpers, but just in case i need to push back against these ideas.

I hope it evident that I'll be repeating myself when I agree. Just because I want to offer opportunities for other players to achieve the same level of power as those that have competed, doesn't mean that I want them to have total freedom to reach that position without being halted if not stopped all-together by those who don't want them to achieve their goals. As I've said about players being REQURIED to eventually face the bloody flowers when the forces of PvP finds them. Therefore if someone is the kind of person that truly wants to play Ashes, but wants to avoid that field all together, they will have to do so through the application of precise and intelligent methods. If there is a dungeon that is constantly swarmed with a pack of guildies keeping control of it... A player that is attempting to gear through Dungeon grinding may employ the service of mercenaries to clear those people out of that dungeon. Therefore they are still circulating the true purpose of the game, regardless of circumventing the process themselves.

I do not believe the world of Verra itself should cater to anyone but the hardcore and immersed players that are participating in the cutthroat environment that it provides. I however believe that if players are capable of overcoming that world, avoiding the bloodshed and participating in brutal challenges regardless, that they should be rewarded. One of the examples I gave as a challenge that provides some resemblance of my challenge methods is the Nudist challenge in hardcore WoW. In Hardcore WoW by default you do not have to participate in PvP. But Verra does not care for your PvE ease of experience, there is no turning PvP off. Therefore you know if someone managed the avert the eyes of thousands looking to kill them.. in plain tan camouflage, that they deserve a powerful reward.

Would you say you still disagree with that? Nice post btw!

Depraved

ChaosFactor wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

i should have clarified. when i say solo i mean not really interacting with others. just buying yourself somewhere away from everyone and getting your stuff. it could be by yourself, in a duo, in a trio or a full party of 8.

anyways, do you think those players who arent versed in pvp will not have to pvp to complete the achievements? other players will be farming in the same dungeons as well (no instances, ashes has open world dungeons), same areas, same mobs, and people will be fighting for spots.

//

if the gear can be sold and traded, then the achievement system is pointless...they could just go and buy gear in the first place. the point of the system is to get the gear through the achievements...

if the concern is that people might not get some fresh or intermediate level 50 gear because their inability to compete, then just state that as the problem and let IS find the best solution, since they know their game, all the other systems, the full scope, how it will affect other systems, etc, etc. i think its better to just state the problem and let IS find the appropriate solution that goes in the same direction of the game. what we need is a better chocolate cake for chocolate lovers, not vanilla in the chocolate cake.

edit: the reason i strongly pushback against "lets protect the carebears and give them a safe space to farm" ideas its because me and many more have been waiting for an mmorpg like this. we have seen how other games got ruined by the same ideas and we really dont want this to happen to aoc. even l2 got kinda ruined when they started adding instances and all that....

carebears already have plenty of games they can enjoy. people like me have NONE atm (unless we count old l2 p servers but meh). just let me have this one.

i doubt steven will change the game to cater to the anti pvpers, but just in case i need to push back against these ideas.

I hope it evident that I'll be repeating myself when I agree. Just because I want to offer opportunities for other players to achieve the same level of power as those that have competed, doesn't mean that I want them to have total freedom to reach that position without being halted if not stopped all-together by those who don't want them to achieve their goals. As I've said about players being REQURIED to eventually face the bloody flowers when the forces of PvP finds them. Therefore if someone is the kind of person that truly wants to play Ashes, but wants to avoid that field all together, they will have to do so through the application of precise and intelligent methods. If there is a dungeon that is constantly swarmed with a pack of guildies keeping control of it... A player that is attempting to gear through Dungeon grinding may employ the service of mercenaries to clear those people out of that dungeon. Therefore they are still circulating the true purpose of the game, regardless of circumventing the process themselves.

I do not believe the world of Verra itself should cater to anyone but the hardcore and immersed players that are participating in the cutthroat environment that it provides. I however believe that if players are capable of overcoming that world, avoiding the bloodshed and participating in brutal challenges regardless, that they should be rewarded. One of the examples I gave as a challenge that provides some resemblance of my challenge methods is the Nudist challenge in hardcore WoW. In Hardcore WoW by default you do not have to participate in PvP. But Verra does not care for your PvE ease of experience, there is no turning PvP off. Therefore you know if someone managed the avert the eyes of thousands looking to kill them.. in plain tan camouflage, that they deserve a powerful reward.

Would you say you still disagree with that? Nice post btw!

yes, i do.

PVer trying to get gear in a dungeon: i cant farm the dungeon and get gear because i have to pvp to farm
PVer trying to get gear through achievements: i cant complete the achievements because i have i to pvp to complete them.

Enigmatic Sage

Difficulty should be scaled accordingly with competence vs gear grinding.
Yes, gear plays a relative crucial role in stats and output but gear can only get you so far. By not allowing and not encouraging players to develop integrally you will lure in a demographic that will just expect hand outs, carries and p2w so they can collect everything that is relatively pointless to the point where you have created a theme park game that hands out participation awards. There's enough soulless mainstream games that are continuously failing over time.

Difficulty like that is what caters to mainstream developers who just want people to get hooked and feel accomplished via dopamine stimulation instead of wanting to play the game for it's intended story and open world purpose. It will become a snowball effect and will ruin your game if you cater to these demographics. I dont think any of us want this game to become the next meme of AAA gaming.

This is why I advocate for a game that has immersive encounters that rely more on competence than out gearing the content per se. Making another meter chasing game is just going to result in another mainstream game with participation awards so everyone can feel... special....

Should content have multiple difficulties as a generalisation? yes but not to the point where there is 4 tiers and ways to bypass it all via theme park content for a game like AoC. I am personally looking for something that pulls me in and makes me want to progress in the game vs just hitting an end point in gear and transmogs so I can move on to the next alt. Need something that can intellectually stimulate me without feeling the encounter is just some boring scripted fight that you can memorise from youtube or worse.. add-ons.

Replay-ability should be fun and challenging instead of a predicable participation award slot machine.

The risk vs reward needs to be in the right spot so dont set the bar too low.

Astealoth

I think most of the contention around difficulty is actually about systems inflexibility. Difficulty is relative. For some, no matter what is put out it will be too easy. For others, they will struggle to intense frustration before reaching the peak difficulty. Everyone has different interests, different brains, different hands. Someone with a persistent hand tremor is not going to be able to achieve the same precision as someone with a very steady hand. Both people can be customers with a good experience with good systems balance.

People hate high Mythic+ and Mythic raid in WoW because they are the exclusive source of stat sheet growth. These difficulty modes are balanced to only appeal to an extremely small portion of the community, but they offer rewards that impact every area of the game. Having 500 main stat locked behind +20 keys and Mythic raid makes the whole game play like crap for about 15 different reasons.

Lower difficulties should not be entirely unrewarding and peak difficulties should not be all-rewarding. It is better on a gradient rather than in brackets. Higher difficulty should be more rewarding. It would be nice to both have immense nearly impossible challenges to overcome, without those necessarily being required to have a good baseline experience. it is not that hard to give everyone what they need. The rabid hostile elite twitch player with PTSD brain fog from competitive losses who can barely act like a human being can be appeased without stripping the game away from the other 99.99% of the customer pool. Balance in all things!

Dygz

Depraved wrote: »

true, for the people who like swirl cakes. if you only like chocolate and you don't like vanilla, you arent going to get a swirl cake, you will only buy chocolate cakes.

Hmmn. Yeah. I mean...
I think most MMORPG players prefer something like Neopolitan/Harlequin ice cream. Essentially PvX, but you can avoid vanilla if and when you want to.
As opposed to a swirl cake, where both flavors are inextricably mixed.
We can expect the players who only like vanilla sometimes and wish to have control over when they experience vanilla to also not play Ashes - in addition to the players who don't like vanilla at all.

I don't know that the swirl cake analogy works well for Hardcore Challenge v Casual Challenge.
I think Ashes players will be able to choose that similar to Neopolitan/Harlequin ice cream.
Although, Steven did say that Ashes is a difficult game (so make friends with people who will help you when you need help).

Azherae

Swirl cake is like 90% of the reason why cake > pie.

You can go to a party with a swirl cake and get a mostly chocolate slice, someone else get a mostly plain/vanilla slice, everyone enjoys the 'same cake' at the 'same party'.

You can't do that with pie without ruining it.

This overextended analogy has been brought to you by the Patissier's Association of Eastern Verra.

Enigmatic Sage

@Astealoth in relation to WoW, most of the BIS items come from mythic raiding opposed to the mythic plus dungeon pool, especially when it comes to trinkets and items with unique bonuses that give a significant advantage. With that said, in order to do the actual challenging m+ tiers (25+) most groups wont even invite you if you dont have certain items from said raid difficulty. Then you get into only timing those dungeons by cheesing the game design and playing a meta class/spec.
Considering you can craft max ilvl gear, you dont really have a valid point about hiding anything behind a +20 as the loot pools drops at a +17 hero and a +16 and above for vault mythic.

The game is literally becoming easier each patch and expansion while making it more obtainable for high end loot through minimal skill checks now. You'll come across many over geared players in high end content that dont even know how to play their class or game for that matter. Sure, there is still many players who are quite good at the game but the games end game purpose is quite soulless. They've created a soulless dopamine driven reward system designed like a mobile game. This is what mainstream game developers do. Look at any of their IP's since blizzard was acquired by activision. Blizzard is just a name they parade around while almost all of the people who create blizzard dont even work there anymore and/or have anything to do with the company.

So im not sure what you're trying to get about 99% balance aspect considering their target audience is that casual weiner kid who wants to be fed transmogs and loot based on entitlement. The game hasn't been about the 1% in a very long time and content creators are to blame in a way as many community members (not just for wow) go to these creators for their opinions instead of learning for themselves.

Take soulsborne games as example, there is only one difficulty setting, people whine and cry about it but what they dont realise is you can literally cheese and one shot many bosses if you actually learned to play the game as the builds and item balancing is all over the place. So lets not try to cater to the 99% because thats how good games become soulless mainstream muppet games.

ChaosFactor

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Difficulty should be scaled accordingly with competence vs gear grinding.
Yes, gear plays a relative crucial role in stats and output but gear can only get you so far. By not allowing and not encouraging players to develop integrally you will lure in a demographic that will just expect hand outs, carries and p2w so they can collect everything that is relatively pointless to the point where you have created a theme park game that hands out participation awards. There's enough soulless mainstream games that are continuously failing over time.

Difficulty like that is what caters to mainstream developers who just want people to get hooked and feel accomplished via dopamine stimulation instead of wanting to play the game for it's intended story and open world purpose. It will become a snowball effect and will ruin your game if you cater to these demographics. I dont think any of us want this game to become the next meme of AAA gaming.

This is why I advocate for a game that has immersive encounters that rely more on competence than out gearing the content per se. Making another meter chasing game is just going to result in another mainstream game with participation awards so everyone can feel... special....

Should content have multiple difficulties as a generalisation? yes but not to the point where there is 4 tiers and ways to bypass it all via theme park content for a game like AoC. I am personally looking for something that pulls me in and makes me want to progress in the game vs just hitting an end point in gear and transmogs so I can move on to the next alt. Need something that can intellectually stimulate me without feeling the encounter is just some boring scripted fight that you can memorise from youtube or worse.. add-ons.

Replay-ability should be fun and challenging instead of a predicable participation award slot machine.

The risk vs reward needs to be in the right spot so dont set the bar too low.

I suppose this would be a clear example of myself not doing good enough of a job of distinguishing between my system and the methods that modern games use. First of all, as I've said in other responses, the issues with people paying for boosts and relying off other players to provide them with gear.. I believe can purely be fixed through the game's design. Foremost, the game is designed in a way that gear is not entirely self reliant and requiring of skill, using others as a resource for achievement in the game, including just paying gold to give you a full set of gear you don't have to work to. It is a philosophy that I agree with that if you're able to provide some form of service, currency, or are simply friends, that you should be able to provide other players with power. The flip side of the coin is of course the team needing to be on top of dealing with RMTs surrounding the game, such as people having an Ashes boosting website.

I like the term that you used when you said "award slot machine", I understand that perception when it comes to the system that I have presented. However! I think that the truth of that reality and it's distaste when presented in modern games, is that the system is uninteresting, short, and simple. If the challenges presented in order to complete these challenges are in-depth, well made, and long form challenges, I believe that they would far surpass that standard. As I've mentioned before in response to another good comment, I believe that simply translating KPS into in game systems like quest givers or other forms of providing systems would remove the soullessness that you're alluding to when speaking about AAA games.

When you mention participation rewards to feel special, that's nowhere near where I want to land with my system. The reason I mention multiple times in the trust of other's achievements, is because none of the major rewards should be anywhere near simply through participation. Epic rewards should be a struggle, a long term effort with either repetition, research or raw skill. I don't want people to be handed a currency every time they complete a world event that you can build up and just cash out for an item. I want someone to be dragged through the annals of Verra, through fire in flame, to earn their gear. All I want, is for there to be more than enough paths of blood and conquest to choose from.

Perhaps that cleared some points up? Also #NoAddons praise the gods.

ChaosFactor

Astealoth wrote: »

I think most of the contention around difficulty is actually about systems inflexibility. Difficulty is relative. For some, no matter what is put out it will be too easy. For others, they will struggle to intense frustration before reaching the peak difficulty. Everyone has different interests, different brains, different hands. Someone with a persistent hand tremor is not going to be able to achieve the same precision as someone with a very steady hand. Both people can be customers with a good experience with good systems balance.

People hate high Mythic+ and Mythic raid in WoW because they are the exclusive source of stat sheet growth. These difficulty modes are balanced to only appeal to an extremely small portion of the community, but they offer rewards that impact every area of the game. Having 500 main stat locked behind +20 keys and Mythic raid makes the whole game play like crap for about 15 different reasons.

Lower difficulties should not be entirely unrewarding and peak difficulties should not be all-rewarding. It is better on a gradient rather than in brackets. Higher difficulty should be more rewarding. It would be nice to both have immense nearly impossible challenges to overcome, without those necessarily being required to have a good baseline experience. it is not that hard to give everyone what they need. The rabid hostile elite twitch player with PTSD brain fog from competitive losses who can barely act like a human being can be appeased without stripping the game away from the other 99.99% of the customer pool. Balance in all things!

Awesome addition, thanks for the input!

I could not agree more with the complaint about the 0.01% players that drive late game in many games. They spend so much time agreeing with each other in echo chambers like big Streamers chats that others who don't even participate in their nonsense infinite gameplay loop start to agree with them. (I would know because at some point I was one of those people)

Enigmatic Sage

ChaosFactor wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Difficulty should be scaled accordingly with competence vs gear grinding.
Yes, gear plays a relative crucial role in stats and output but gear can only get you so far. By not allowing and not encouraging players to develop integrally you will lure in a demographic that will just expect hand outs, carries and p2w so they can collect everything that is relatively pointless to the point where you have created a theme park game that hands out participation awards. There's enough soulless mainstream games that are continuously failing over time.

Difficulty like that is what caters to mainstream developers who just want people to get hooked and feel accomplished via dopamine stimulation instead of wanting to play the game for it's intended story and open world purpose. It will become a snowball effect and will ruin your game if you cater to these demographics. I dont think any of us want this game to become the next meme of AAA gaming.

This is why I advocate for a game that has immersive encounters that rely more on competence than out gearing the content per se. Making another meter chasing game is just going to result in another mainstream game with participation awards so everyone can feel... special....

Should content have multiple difficulties as a generalisation? yes but not to the point where there is 4 tiers and ways to bypass it all via theme park content for a game like AoC. I am personally looking for something that pulls me in and makes me want to progress in the game vs just hitting an end point in gear and transmogs so I can move on to the next alt. Need something that can intellectually stimulate me without feeling the encounter is just some boring scripted fight that you can memorise from youtube or worse.. add-ons.

Replay-ability should be fun and challenging instead of a predicable participation award slot machine.

The risk vs reward needs to be in the right spot so dont set the bar too low.

I suppose this would be a clear example of myself not doing good enough of a job of distinguishing between my system and the methods that modern games use. First of all, as I've said in other responses, the issues with people paying for boosts and relying off other players to provide them with gear.. I believe can purely be fixed through the game's design. Foremost, the game is designed in a way that gear is not entirely self reliant and requiring of skill, using others as a resource for achievement in the game, including just paying gold to give you a full set of gear you don't have to work to. It is a philosophy that I agree with that if you're able to provide some form of service, currency, or are simply friends, that you should be able to provide other players with power. The flip side of the coin is of course the team needing to be on top of dealing with RMTs surrounding the game, such as people having an Ashes boosting website.

I like the term that you used when you said "award slot machine", I understand that perception when it comes to the system that I have presented. However! I think that the truth of that reality and it's distaste when presented in modern games, is that the system is uninteresting, short, and simple. If the challenges presented in order to complete these challenges are in-depth, well made, and long form challenges, I believe that they would far surpass that standard. As I've mentioned before in response to another good comment, I believe that simply translating KPS into in game systems like quest givers or other forms of providing systems would remove the soullessness that you're alluding to when speaking about AAA games.

When you mention participation rewards to feel special, that's nowhere near where I want to land with my system. The reason I mention multiple times in the trust of other's achievements, is because none of the major rewards should be anywhere near simply through participation. Epic rewards should be a struggle, a long term effort with either repetition, research or raw skill. I don't want people to be handed a currency every time they complete a world event that you can build up and just cash out for an item. I want someone to be dragged through the annals of Verra, through fire in flame, to earn their gear. All I want, is for there to be more than enough paths of blood and conquest to choose from.

Perhaps that cleared some points up? Also #NoAddons praise the gods.

I'm pretty fed up with games where leveling is pointless, you can pay for carries, pay for gold and pay for boosts with RMT. These studio's just killed off the adventure in their game to be theme parks and p2w. But I wont go down the path of reiteration of pointless end-game accomplishments haha

The game definitely needs to feel like players accomplished things whether it be from obtaining through crafting or dungeons, events etc. Different paths to accomplish this is important but definitely not in ways that the players abuse it for the easy route. I am definitely glad the end game is more player driven and open ended opposed to just getting a gear score, rating, a few t-mogs and mounts and then do it all over again on several alts.

I definitely like where you're going with it

Child Item