Depends on what archetype you choose and how you make you build and you playstyle. Some use basic attack a lot, some only use basic attack to fill the gap of dps rotation or to recover form mistake etc.
I like the mage element enchantment in your mage showcase, reminds me thief's stealth attack and mesmer's ambush skill in GW2. I think you can lear more from GW2 like warrior's F1(adrenaline skill) to make your version and synergy with basic attack.
update:
I also wonder that does different weapon has different attack speed to reflect different way to deal damage. For example: 2 great swords(GS), GS1 has high attack power but low attack speed and GS2 has low attack power but high attack speed. And the difference between these 2 GSs could be something like: GS1 is better on rotate between skills that don't affected by attack speed to dealing damage, attack speed affects basic attack speed so GS2 is better on skills that giving basic attacks with proc effects like bleeding and maybe you can stacks multiple prco effects.
I didn't like the q spam of old. I also dislike auto attacks. Somewhere in between is my preference. If the combat needs to have fillers the combat is weak. I like synergies with basic attacks and procs with basic attacks.
Standard basic attacks are pointless in my opinion because resource management will be the prime source of power and control in such a circumstance. I also love when basic attacks provide mana replenishment of some kind.
I guess my question is... What is a basic attack? Is it just a random number that goes off when next to an object or is it a meaningful input by the player?
In my opinion any attack from a player should be meaningful. I know this can be outside the realm of an MMORPG. Going back in time a lot of games are just hit A for attack and stand there and watch numbers scroll up the screen. This goes all the way back to muds. The best thing to happen in gaming is player input. I like basic attacks from souls like games. You click your mouse and you get a basic attack. This attack can then be changed with other inputs to create meaningful game play.
Now i know this is considered action combat. But i find it boring to just hit A and watch random numbers scroll up a screen. I feel to have great combat within a game you as the player should be inputting your decisions to create the outcome of battle, not just a random numbers generator when standing next to or targeting an object.
Having an interaction with combat within a game is what makes it feel like you accomplished something. Having a random number go off based on proximity is not engaging game play.
I must also state i am not a fan of set rotations either. These become very boring game play. That is why most ask if items will change what your character can do. They want to spice up their boring game play with an item that will change how one of their spells will work or how the class may change with that item.
I can only hope intrepid studios can be innovative when it comes to basic attacks in combat.
I have a pretty unpopular opinion - I'm not a fan of "rotation" at all. Having multiple skills just to use them mindlessly one by one, always in the same order doesn't enrich the gameplay. It looks nice to have a dozen of skills at your disposal, but when most of them are simple damage skills that you just throw into your rotation it might as well just be a single skill.
Having rotations usually encourages devs to just put more skills in place that are mostly placeholders for your rotation instead of designing skills that actually matter.
As such, I prefer to have less skills on my hot bar, but each having a specific use case that I need to quickly (during the heat of the moment) decide whether it will be beneficial for me to use while at the same time risking putting skill on CD in case the opportunity wasn't that good after all == risk vs reward.
Basic attacks are paramount for me to keep the number of skills to minimal - why design a skill that will just be a part of a damage rotation, when you can use basic attack.
NOTE: Some spelling changes in the quote.
I cannot agree more with Gemboi, Rotations are not fun at all. I want skills that actually make or break an outcome. I don't want a rotation where someone could program a bot to go: 1,1,1,2,1,3,1,1,1,2,1,3,1,1,1,2,1,3 etc.
Rotations to me are about as meaningless as the false choices in dialog. Sure, you may get a slightly different text prompt but if in the end it doesn't change anything why bother adding it?
Then again, I would go further as to ask why do people care about their characters eye color? I have never once found a game where 1 eye color over another has affected anything in the game. So, it's just another meaningless thing that people basically forget about by the time they get their first quest started.
I would be happy if my basic attack was 40% of my game play and the other 60% was meaningful choices. Have some with longer cooldowns and some that are more about timing.
For example:
You notice a mob you are attacking just used a special attack and there is some kind of .5 second stagger from the force they enemy put into the attack. I want an ability that when target is staggered, I can do X. X can be something like stunning damage, or an effect like a knock down.
You should be able to work with your group/team and take advantage of other players abilities.
Player 1 does a knock down, players 2 and 3 use abilities that do extra damage or effects to knocked down opponents.
In the end, are you promoting solo play or team play?
Not saying you shouldn't be able to solo as I Solo'd my EQ shaman from lvl 10-63 with minimal grouping and by minimal, I mean like maybe a total of 100 hours over a few years of game play. And I game on average of 12+ hours per day when not working and 6+ on days I do work.
automatic attacks detract from combat immersion.
and can only be applied in the case of tab targetting.
basic right-click, left-click attacks are essential to good gameplay, but should have less impact than skils.
Baron of Shadows
Graveyard's Grin
Your bones dance to my rhythm
How important is it for you to have basic attacks be a part of your combat rotation?
Now, this is ofc. very much not a set of fixed terms, but just to clearify where I'm at with this I see a big difference between auto-attacks and basic attacks. Basic attacks is, for me, a player-driven action to use your weapon; you press a button your character swings a sword. Auto-attacks is something that happens without any involvement of the player either than initiation of combat; you have a weapon that your character uses for a defined amount of times for a defined amount of dmg.
Now, Basic attacks and spell density in a rotation goes hand in hand. You can only play with a "set" amount of actions-per-minute, and it's a very fine balance between what you spend your time on.. personally? I would rather spend my time pressing buttons for Awesome animations and cool attacks that does different things than spamming my left-click (or something like that) to simply swing my sword Auto-attacks should ofc. reflect the weapon you're wielding, and it's a fine line about how much they should take up your dmg (one which I'm sure you have more than enough good talent to walk without any issues )
Do you enjoy using other skills and abilities in between auto-attacks, or are you having the most fun when basic attacks are less important to how much damage you’re doing?
I'd say I definitely enjoy using spells, skills and abilities as my main source of action. I would however say, that if you have the biggest baddest two handed hammer that could crush all of The Other's in a single fell blow, your auto-attacks should reflect that aswell. There should be a fixed amount of dmg coming from your auto-attacks, because it's also a representation of the achievement of getting better and better weapons .
What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
I've played alot of different MMO's where auto-attacks and basic-attacks were present. I feel like, the games where there were auto-attacks I could feel the biggest difference between having a good or a bad weapon... To me, the games I've played with basic-attacks - which is mainly ESO - feels clonky... It's not very intuitive to the players when to attack or when to use spells...
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
Auto-attacks should be a representation of your gear. You've put alot of effort into your character and it's gear trying to find the right pieces for a fight to optimize yourself - and even if you're not a Good player and can't the rotations right and are a bit off with your timing, your Base-damage should come from auto-attacks and that should be a direct representation of your gear; caus' skills in a game is more than just knowing the right time to press a certain button; it takes skill and devotion to farm out the right gear and to understand the mechanics behind getting the right gear, bartering with other players, doing professions and so on and so forth
The visuals of the attack
Now regardless of wether you go with passive auto-attacks or player-driven basic attacks a very cool thing to add - which Intrepid has shown us the skills to do - would be a visual diversity! A larger library of motions your character goes through when attacking would be awesome, and to have the visual of the attack reflect the weapon you're using; if you're using a flaming axe there should be cinders and ash in the air after slashing, and if you're using a leafy staff there should be leaves in the air after attacking (and so on and so forth)
Usually basic attacks seem like an afterthought, like they're what you do while all of your skills are on cooldown, except games like OSRS where you mostly just use your basic attacks with occasional abilities/prayer switches. Generally, I think they should function as a basic ability that deals damage; not flashy, but they don't put anything on cooldown or consume mana. I generally don't think they should be the main part of combat (in a game like Ashes) because it's more interesting to use abilities, unless your class uses them to empower/alter the attacks in different ways (hopefully not just deal bonus damage for x seconds). That being the case, I agree with the sentiment that right now the attacks are too fast. Each attack should take more time to execute and have a slightly longer pause between each. Looking back at the basic attack demonstration, I think the daggers' animation time looks good (maybe they could use a touch more time in between combos), but the greatsword attacks look so fast that they're jerky. It's like the sword accelerates instantly after the windup and at the end of the swing, when they should have a relatively smooth increase in speed until halfway through the swing, then slow down to the stopping point unless they're slamming into the ground.
I think it depends, on what type of combat play you want to bring, if want to have combat that is fast-paced, then disregard auto-attacks, and reduce cooldowns use of skill or do something similar to BDO, if want a more strategic and normal place, then you should opt for auto-attacks on the rotation since cooldowns would be used on special occasions as countermeasure or opportunity. I prefer the normal place with auto-attacks on rotation like WoW, I think in siege scale PVP would be easier to understand what was going on on the battlefield
No auto attacks. They're a dated mechanic from old MMOs. Nothing feels good about an attack going off on it's own in the middle of combat which sometimes doesn't even have an animation. Let the players control it. Left click or left click and hold for continued use by default would be good. I enjoy the process of learning an effective rotation mixed in with basic attacks, it makes the combat satisfying. Basic attacks should be apart of everyone's rotation to a degree but more notable on certain classes or builds. I can see them being more important for classes like fighter, ranger or rogue. I would expect casters to be using their abilities a majority of the time, unless specced into a build that benefits more from basic attacks for resource generation, procs, passives or other benefits.
I think rotation makes a game fast paced and enjoyable. The idea of a skill per second with the ability to weave your basic attacks in would be something that would make the combat enjoyable.
I dont like the idea of auto attacks if its what i think it is. I want to be able to have full control and learn the rotations, practice them and be able to enjoy a fast paced combat once they become muscle memory.
P.s., with all its faults, I find Elder Scroll Online's combat system to be very engaging and fun. If AoC is anything like that, itll already be a win, imo of course.
Totally agree , it’s has made playing ESO fun , but, until heavy attack builds became viable there was a disadvantage to some players as a result of disability etc. so auto attack seems to be a good as an option.
Auto-attacks: The only purpose for auto attacks should be to normalize the average DPS players do, bringing the players with lower DPS more in line with higher DPS. If "casualization" is not a focus of the game, than there is no purpose for auto attacks.
Basic Attacks & Rotation: I prefer damage/healing rotations that involve a constant usage of abilities with some weaker basic attacks that fill the gaps. There should never be a moment where I don't have a button to press, because that's just boring. Even when I'm trying to get out of a bosses aoe slam, I want something to press since that would increase the skill ceiling, benefiting those capable of multitasking in hectic situations and making them feel like real gamers. Games like WoW tend to have very few "basic attacks" that don't have a cooldown and are used to fill gaps, which I prefer. There's normally one basic attack for single target dps and 1 for aoe and that's all there needs to be. The rest of the abilities should have cooldowns or some sort of condition to use them, such as x amount of casts of y ability. The gaps where basic attacks would be used in-between rotations should be short (1-3 seconds). Having at least 1 second of time in-between rotations allows for a sort of confirmation that you are doing things correctly.
With all the different classes that the game will have available, there is enough room to make classes with brain dead easy rotations and classes with very complex rotations. The most complex rotations should result in the highest damage/healing out of all the classes if done correctly, and the easier rotations should result in the lowest damage/healing. It's frustrating to be constantly beat in DPS by someone playing a class that presses 4 buttons when I'm sweating buckets with my 20 button rotation. There are people that just want an easy rotation and to play the game on auto pilot, so that option should be there for them. Easy access to respeccing to a different class combination or skill tree should be an available to ensure people don't feel like they get stuck with a bad class in case the wheel of balance that developers spin doesn't land in their favor at any given time.
I find abillity rotations not very fun.
You rather have the feeling that you have to have studied to be able to participate in PvP, for example. And that is no fun... Then rather abillitys that stand for themselves.
You come online after work in Ashes of Creation to have fun together with the guild. Maybe also to tackle one or the other project, like raids, dungeons, or one of the many PvP possibilities. You don't have the time to study the rotation.
Hi
If I understand what you're saying, you basically don't want to have to acquire a degree in your character and their abilities to have fun.
With that said, I'm curious what games you've played where you felt this was the case, and why? Also, what games have you played in which this wasn't the case, and what made those games fun?
Basic attacks are an ability , and i dont think there should be useless abilities, they should play a significant role, although the relation can and should be different from class to class, that can range from that some class might just use them less or as filler, or that for some class mainly rely on them and abilities enhance or mutate basic attacks or trigger effects/spells/additional effects when hit someone affected by something
In some MMORPGs, basic attacks are somewhat automatic and (while possibly an "ability") aren't always used as an ability. In those cases, would you say you don't like that playstyle or that use of basic attacks?
What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
Anywhere from being fluff damage over the course to something that makes up a large portion of it
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
I think that auto attacks should be something that players can choose how effective they are through a build they can make, and this should differ from class to class based on the groundwork on the job's core combat identity is.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
Mostly abilities. Though I'm not sure I want a set rotation as I think it may remove some customizability. I tend to prefer when I can play more free-form but still need to play my role in the group properly. I like needing to keep my focus and engaged with my kit, either way. I adore kit interaction, and like having high skill ceilings. I do think that there should be a lower skill floor for the people who don't wish to be limited to this. Though, I understand it could be hard to implement for both groups of players.
I also like having various ways to build said class or ways to play it in general. To list an example: Rift did this quite well. We had multiple types of a class and we were able to choose from 3 of them per build, and we were able to allocate points into whichever tree between those 3 as we liked.
The talent trees from WoW are also a decent reference. Currently we have the main class tree, and the spec tree. For example, Warrior. We get the Warrior tree, and if you spec into Arms, you get that one as a second tree to shift through. They both have their own points you allocate to customize. I feel like said skill trees would be the best way to ensure that players who want more abilities in their rotation like me can do so, and players who don't can make it so that they can make their playstyle to their own liking.
If auto-attacks can be canceled/disrupted by using abilities in AoC, then I would like the option to have a cast bar or auto-attack bar to show much time is left until the next attack finishes. Between latency, weapon attack speed, and modifiers such as haste, I think there are too many variables to reliably master auto-attack weaving without this type of tool, especially if we are meant to use different equipment sets for different types of encounters.
That said, I want to compare two of the specs from WoW to help illustrate when I think auto-attack weaving makes sense.
Assassination Rogue:
Usage of the rogue's abilities in their combat rotation tend to be limited by their energy rather than cooldowns. This class has a slower rotation, particularly when your haste is low. You frequently find yourself with no buttons that can/should be pushed as you wait to regen energy. In my mind, this is the best type of rotation if you plan to have players weave in auto-attacks between their other abilities because the slow nature of the rotation gives the player a chance to focus on ability timing in addition to ability selection.
Fury Warrior:
Short cooldowns, procs, and high resource generation mean that Fury warriors have many abilities to choose from at any given time. Mastering this type of rotation is more about selecting the right ability for the situation than the precise, millisecond timing of its usage. I like the spammy nature of this rotation because I always have a button to press and there is no downtime. Therefore, I wouldn't want to weave auto-attacks in-between ability usage with this type of rotation because it would slow down the rotation's pacing. This playstyle is my personal favorite because I think it feels bad when you have wait to use your abilities.
Hmm this is my first response on a forum so hopefully I can convey my message properly on basic attacks and what they mean to me.
So as some have stated previously basic attacks aren’t as important for every class. A rogue, warrior and in some ways a archer will rely heavily on basic and heavy attacks due to the play-style of those roles. Where as a cleric, mage, bard and possibly a tank will simply lean more towards abilities and less towards basic attacks because they are more about control and have more time to think and react. Also, having a solidified rotation of abilities that’s been tweaked for that control their role requires is crucial to their success and the groups and basic attacks play a tiny roll in it.
For a rogue and warrior I feel like we are typically in the thick of things where that ability to have half a second to think isn’t there. So for me I’ll have a solid 3-6 abilities I’ll use to simply engage certain targets just to get a feel for how the fight will go and get that initial damage out there. Basic attacks that do respectable damage during the early engage stage are crucial because it helps give me time to think mid fight on the perfect ability for the situation to set myself up for success while still doing damage.
So I feel the smart balance for basic attack damage and usage should depend on the class. I feel Rogue, Warrior and Ranger should have some sort of basic attack damage and basic attack speed leveling within the classes with a slightly higher chance to miss. As for Mage, Cleric, Bard, Summoner (depending on the build) & tank should have some sort of basic attack AoE heavy or increase in damage leveling but longer casting time for their basic attack considering the difference in placement and amount of time on the battle field as well as that rock paper scissors ideal that has been spoken about to fit better into the play style of those classes.
I feel having the ability to choose how effective those basic attacks are through leveling that skill set per weapon and class is the answer. Let me be clear I don’t feel every class should have access to the same basic attacks leveling buffs. It will breed those toxic players who look for exploits like a basic attack magic that does stupid damage with no abilities besides escapes so they can teleport away and keep spamming.
if you cant do your own basic attacks between cool downs for abilities and resource management then what are you doing that's so complicated that you cant press the ability?
Basic attacks should act as a filler per se in most situations. Makes the game seem half assed with class design just to stimulate tiny brain cells with an extra effect.
Let's not even talk about the cheap animation cancellation effect it creates for combat animation fluidity. and if you animation lock it, it's just as awful.
Should never have a situation where my character is automatically doing anything. Don't let basic attacks automatically happen.
I want to push buttons to make a choice, and commit to that choice before I can make the next one. As in a global cooldown. Being able to use multipleskills at a time might be a gear perk or class identity perk, but otherwise I want to feel like my choices matter.
A basic attack should be something we use normally, while waiting on a situation to occur where the other skills provide more value to use them.
Example: I am a mage, and I am throwing wand attacks at an enemy. This should be my default choice, unless a situation happens that makes it better for me to throw some other skill.
Should there also be skills I want to use all the time? Yes, essentially though they are just bigger basic attacks, like throwing the lightning ball through a target to do lots of damage. It does more damage and not much else, so its something we default to pressing on cooldown without needing much decision making. This sort of thing leads to spell rotations to maximize dps, nothing wrong with that, and depending on how the cooldown of all these skills line up, may not even have a 'set rotation' at all, but rather a priority of use this first, this second, etc.
An enemy player will see me using this lightning ball, and then they can make the choice to interrupt me or not as an example. Thats why the bigger basic attacks also must exist.
We do need situational moves, and aoe, a interrupt, a movement skill, things to amplify teammates, things to debuff enemies. We need things we can use to make choices with our button press. Do damage, or do effect?
How important is it for you to have basic attacks be a part of your combat rotation? Do you enjoy using other skills and abilities in between auto-attacks, or are you having the most fun when basic attacks are less important to how much damage you’re doing?
Not very important to me really. I'm more in the camp of ability based combat. But I expect basic attacks to have their place and role. I'd expect them to be used to apply effects/debuffs potentially. I'd expect them to be a backup to be used when out of mana or otherwise trying to conserve mana. Or when juggling cooldowns of abilities. And they could potentially be used as a mechanism to regen mana.
I want my rotation to mostly be abilities. Certain classes or builds having more of a dependence on basic attacks is fine with me though. But I'm not playing an MMO with classes and abilities to just run around left click spamming.
I am 100% against ESO style animation canceling/weaving. I have read wiki quotes that Ashes intends to not have that. I hope that's still the case. And I have to warn that ESO didn't intend to have it either. It was an accident, a bug, that they couldn't fix without overhauling the whole combat system. So it became a feature. I really hope Ashes combat devs are taking care to not allow it to become a bug in this game too.
It honestly depends on both iteration and usefulness. Biggest examples I can give are from two MMOs I played often
Example 1: WoW. In WoW auto attacks range from being one of the bigger sources of that class's DPS, to their main proc generator for their bigger DPS cooldowns, to flat out being completely useless. But in almost all these cases, auto attacks end up being mostly an afterthought, or worse... a hinderance. Take DPS monks, they are a class that is by design, not doing auto attacks as much as other melee DPS. But the designers for the class don't remember this fact, and any artificial power design for monks is ruined because the developers attach them to auto attacks without realizing that the class doesn't AA as much. Auto attacks are taken for granted so much on any non-spell caster that its just assumed powers can be oriented on it that it can hurt gear/class design,
Example 2: SWTOR. SWTOR doesn't actually have an auto attack system, instead they have basic attacks, which do as much damage as an auto attack would in other MMOs but have to be manually pressed. Sadly, these attacks are quickly dropped off a players bar almost five levels into the game. They simply are ignored because there was never any iteration to make them worth a players time. The game got around this by fleshing each class out so their resources and talent procs never required basic attacks/autos to function. In many cases having to use the basic attacks would actively harm any classes rotations, both damage and enjoyability wise.
If auto attacks/basic attacks didn't feel like you ran out of the "fun" buttons to press, and had an active part in a players rotation or set up for massive attacks then I could see them not being a bother. But in this and in several other games I didn't lost, I just did not find basics/autos as an entertaining or engaging piece of the combat puzzle.
Hey all! I have a few follow-up questions for you. Some of you may have already answered these. They're more so additional thought-starters for discussion
Do you like when your weapon is meaningful in your combat rotation, or do you like it best when your weapon is mostly just a stat stick?
Do you want to see weapons more involved than just auto-attacks?
In what games has this been done well, and which games do you feel it’s been done poorly?
Are there any ways in which you could see basic or auto-attacks be improved in the future?
Meaningful but in a way they are essentially stat sticks.
if the item contains a damage value range then additional attributions such as damage bonuses. But then we get into a whole world of proc chance with RNG burst which hasn't been officially addressed as far as I know which I am not really a fan of as damage consistency can rely too much on RNG and make your class feel like a slot machine rather than an appropriate range of expected damage values for values and synergy cohesion especially with how that is currently planned (ie gaining procs for frost from other frost archetypes).
Additionally to this I am curious about how enchanting will play a role in all of this with percentile procedural chances high or low vs a more relatively guaranteed result.
Adding layers and layers with too much RNG dependability can result in the classes design to feel like it's only fun a couple minutes at a time situationally assuming proc and RNG is in your favour opposed to more consistent synergistic flow with a smaller burst value window with said proc's/RNG.
Overcomplicating the combat systems with too many RNG layers doesn't usually result in a good relative class balance across the board per se especially with the requirement for fluidity between PvE and PvP as situations arise.
I played alot of mmorpgs with both systems with more or less "autoattack" reliant combat systems, but two of the most enjoyable ones i'd like to share here.
SOLO: while Swords of Legends Online hyped down pretty fast and did not turn out to be the most popular mmorpg, it did have an amazing combat system i played up to this day. I played the funny scythe healer class that could also switch to DD if needed, and it had in both version the setup of having the "autoattack" being the main skill - as a healer my autoattack was my main heal skill that my skills would further improve, or give me more bonuses to overcome global cd's, but it all resolved around the 2 left- and rightclick autoattacks being upkept all the time to keep up the rotation, and your skills would weave into that. It played really well and i enjoyed it. The damagedealer build had a similar concept with 2 mainattacks on left and rightclick to build up stacks and "reap" them, which got enhanced by your skillkit and some additional utility skills, but you get the idea.
Dragon's Prophet: maybe i spent too much time in this one, but it's the combat system i've dedicated over 8 years to already and it has a concept of shifting the main damage focus to the actual SKILLS, while not rendering your basic "autoattacks" completely useless afterall - first of all different combinations of autoattack exist here (leftclick + rightcklick, jump + rightclick etc.) and one certain combination of 3 leftclicks + rightclick would recover your Actionpoints in combat, which any class needs to use sometimes when they spam too many skills without weaving in enough autoattack combos or other means to recover your actionpoints (through potions e.g.). Other classes, like the Ranger, simply weave in leftclick autoattacks between their normal skill cd's because you do not have enough skills to constantly spam them, so you do autoattacks in between for additional dps. Another thing that exists here is that quite a few skills across different classes "morph" your autoattack - in a sense that if you use this skill (say a Freezing Pulse) your next Autoattack is transformed to shoot out an Ice Shard that will deal extra Damage. I really like this feature cause it's another means of not letting your "autoattack" button becomming useless, as some other games tend to do it.
1. Do you like when your weapon is meaningful in your combat rotation, or do you like it best when your weapon is mostly just a stat stick?
Both.It should depend on how you build your class. There should be an option to completely focus on spell with minimal or no use of weapons to a class build that almost completely focuses on basic attack with spells that enhance that kind of gameplay ( Spells that add elemental dmg on weapons, speed for basic attacks, spell that activate on basic attack hit, spells that activate on successful dodge or block or deflect etc). Hell, you could make entire spell based on deflect parry/deflect mechanics like a riposte.
Do you want to see weapons more involved than just auto-attacks?
Ofc! Maybe even as slight gap closers or ministuns for example. Imagine charging/holding a button, for example, halberd. Slight gap closer in front would be nice, but you would be vulnerable to damage in that 2-3 seconds charging up.
Or maybe a two handed mace/warhammer when you charge 2-3 second heavy attack that does a minimal stunning attack with higher dmg if you connect it.
Maybe a rapier that does 2-3 slashing dmg in a cone of you charge it. (Dota 2 Pangolier Swashbuckle ability as a reference)
While holding a shield in active block, press attack to do shield bash...
Point is, each weapon attack should feel different.
Also check out, for example, how charge attack of might versus sorcery and finesse weapons work in a game called Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
Check out how charge cancelling and moves were done in that game.
It funny, in one of your showcases you showed us how some dagger attacks look in your game. I was INSTANTLY reminded of this game.
3.In what games has this been done well, and which games do you feel it’s been done poorly?
It's poorly done in WoW. Its basically a filler if you run out of mana or if you are really good rogue as something to finish your opponen (throwing weapon).
In a game that is done well, and by that, I mean too well is Black Desert. That game is just combo galore. Its a fun combat, but it doesn't fit MMO with a massive number of player on screen. Especially all the flashy stuff that looks like a fireworks on a battlefield. That game doesn't even feel like an MMO to me.
Another example of, in my opinion bad basic attacks is ESO. Animations are boring and stiff. At least its a nice balance of basic attacks and spell casting.
Honestly, I can find a single MMO who has done it properly. Maybe Tera, a bit.
Mostly the games who started out as an MMO and were later turned into a single player games have done it somewhat good like Dragon Age: Inquisition and Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
4. Are there any ways in which you could see basic or auto-attacks be improved in the future?
Yes, by adding
a)Light, medium and heavy attacks.
b) Weapons with different speeds, charge time.
c) Weapon attack cancellation (at least for Charge Attacks if you add them). Like if you charge heavy attack with a two handed warhammer you can cancel it before it reaches its peak. Heavy weapons like that which are high risk(slow speed)-high reward (big dmg) like two handed maces, greatswords, great axes, long bows versus Low risk (fast speed,sure hit)-medium reward (medium damage) like wands, shortswords, shortbows
Attacks with with certain conditions:
- Attack with dagger from stealth should have a same damage as close and personal combat.
- Attacks from back shouldn't do the same damage as the one from from-Especially if you are rogue.
Wands shouldn't be powerful except when you reach certain charges by hitting a target...
...that sort of conditions.
Weapons should be better at certain things than others. For example two handed axe is good at AOE cleave damage, but melee staff is good in cone elemental damage.
Give your weapons character and not just in the way they look, but how they feel when used in combat.
Auto-Attacks are a lot like those incredibly annoying OGCD filler skills/abilities.
They're just filler, and don't really add anything interesting to the gameplay besides tendonitis inflaming frantic button clicking, so it maintains the illusion of players doing something.
Small downtime breaks in combat during long battles, or between encounters to recover MP actually encourages MP management, and reduces raid fatigue on players.
These MP regen breaks are not the same as the delays you showed between World Event Waves, those world event waves should only be 30 seconds long.
I much prefer expensive spells, going OOM and having to sit/drink/eat, in or out of combat to recover MP - rather than having to continually spam filler/auto-attacks/wand/ranged attacks.
Players should have the ability to choose/spec how they want to play, and also how they recover MP.
I've suggested in the past that speccing away your ranged slot, should increase spell damage since you are eliminating your filler ranged attacks.
I want big, expensive, massive damage spells with no filler attacks, go OOM, and recover/sit/drink/eat
I would much rather cast 4 explosive Fireballs that each hit for 2,000 damage, go OOM, and literally have to sit in combat to recover MP, than having to cast 100 Fireballs that hit for 75 damage each, go OOM, then have to pick away at the target with my Wand at 12 damage per hit to fill out the remaining damage.
Sure, smaller hits, filler, and Auto-attacks may be more manageable on threat generation - but that just isn't fun now is it? Make glass cannons fun and dangerous again, thank you!
As to facilitate an unadulterated opinion, I have avoided reading the preceding comments, so no impression is yet made by common sentiment.
I fully endorse and encourage a system without auto-attacks for Ashes. Filler attacks, in some iterations, are perfectly acceptable and even beneficial to the sensation of impact and weight of other abilities. If basic attacks, not being automatic, are to be added, it would greatly benefit from variation in what is available. The variation or option can be as simple as having the choice of what your basic attack's damage type and appearance are. or having multiple of them to use or choose.
Games that allow for an enjoyable assortment of active abilities available at all times, like WoW, have no room for proper basic attacks. In such a system, a true ability becomes the equivalent of a basic attack — simple abilities to fill in between the more impactful or costly ones. Being able to weave together a couple of simple abilities until short cooldowns become available imparts a more fast and exciting feeling to the combat, in contrast to the alternative of bland attacks or auto-attacks.
Auto-attacks remove a sensation of agency, do negligible damage, and cause short spans of combat boredom. Combat should be active, reactive, proactive — the player should be able to remain consistently in the fray, hectic and thoroughly engaged. There are still opportunities of skill/talent selections to allow for some players to opt out of the ability variety and select simpler abilities and fewer abilities actioned per X unit of time.
Games like ESO, with a woefully lacking combat system and set of active abilities, employ simple auto-attacks as such a mechanic adds to their complexity deficit. Adding instead to a complex system can be detrimental.
Auto combat has a history from which it makes sense, to automate the timing of strikes on a target in range, basically running a timer-driven action while two colliders overlap. In the days where a 56k modem was hot stuff, this kind of simplification helped reduce many technical hurdles, and enabled MMOs and RTSs to flourish with online play. Fantasy MMOs play off the RPG systems, which were extraction and abbreviation of the Gygaxian TTRPG era, and they try to take the "basic attacks every turn if you have nothing else to do" and make it work in real time. DSL came, now we can communicate hit boxes and direction with greater ease, and with more players at once. Cable and Fiber pushed it further, we can have pretty intense combined arms combat at full speed on huge maps with a pretty hefty number of players.
So at this point the NEED for auto attack is completely resolved, it is no longer necessary, and can still be used as a design decisions instead of an active system. I understand how it can be useful for pacing your intake of basic attack driven meters for abilities--like classic WoW fighter and rogue.
For Ashes of Creation, it has no place. Ashes is about expression and agency, where our actions and decisions should matter, both in the moment and with every bit of preparation leading up to it. To that extent, a robust, dynamic, and expansive combat system is important to achieving the overall goals of gameplay.
So with this, I want to offer the idea that weapon attacks are just as meaningful as ability uses and active defenses, not a second tier method to maintain damage output while you wait for the juicy stuff. One of the best examples of this I can think of is DCUO, where weapons have dynamic properties that allow players to stack heavy damage and control the battle. From the high combo in-your-face dual swords to the range, damage, and debuffs from the Rifle, each weapon kit feels powerful and contributes to a lot of damage output. If I recall, it and other games after have a sense of queueing combos like some street fighting games, so auto attack is instead replaced by player input sequence that can be halted by other actions like defenses or some ability uses.
This is more what I want to see. A sword isn't just a stat block that is essentially interchangeable for an axe or mace with the same attributes, not should the difference be minimal passive properties like increased crit for axes vs increased change to hit for swords. The attack patterns, the ways the patterns flow with their intended ranges, and what the patterns can do, is all room for a lot of expression. This goes back to DCUO and the like, where a basic attack + heavy attack + use of directions + combo chains + active blocking and defenses, makes up what each kind of weapon can be. This means players can learn to use different weapons to adjust their play style, and get more variation on what they can do by swapping the weapon type instead of just getting the biggest viable stat block they can equip.
And I want to get back to something I said up there. Chance to hit. That needs to not exist. A hot may be so weak that it glances off tough armor, but if the weapon collider passes through the enemy hitbox collider, that's a hit, not a % chance to hit. Unless the creature is incorporeal or phases in and out of existence, there should be no "chance" to it.
That said, I can see wiggle room when dealing with an automatic block mechanic or evade mechanic, but these need to have the motions to match it. That auto block cancels the current action, which gives the trade off of reducing damage but getting thrown off. Likewise for auto evasion, I don't wanna see them so Matrix style bullet time where they just weave out of the attacks and keep going, but instead that it is an automatic back step or dive or whatever to get clear of the incoming weapon collider. And with all that, I wish to push back against this paragraph's contents, as I don't think systems that interrupt players to engage defenses of these kinds will facilitate a smooth combat system, and instead leave players frustrated when they find themselves out of position, or accidentally cancelling a timely action just to shrug
off trivial damage.
Debuffs based on attack inputs makes sense for Ashes of Creation. With the stacking and popping/escalating systems already in place, I would want to see this emphasized further with weapons. Additionally, like we've seen in archetype demos, and like I also enjoy in games like Path of Exile, the ability to sacrifice an active ability slot in exchange for a toggleable method to pump your weapon effectiveness helps to further emphasize the importance of weapons being meaningful.
I feel like I have a ton more to say, but that's it for now. In short, boo to auto attack, boo to attacks being filler, yay to active attacks that matter, yay to weapon categories being mechanically different and meaningful.
[*] What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
I don't really want 'auto-anything'. It may as well just do the whole thing for me at that point, and the game loses all sense of combat. I always hated the whole "Hold down a button and just run" approach to combat. I much prefer attacks to be triggered individually by a mouse click rather than just holding down a button and spamming it.
For me, Basic Attacks are just that. They're what you use in downtime from using your actual skills.
[*] What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
Auto-Attacks - None at all whatsoever.
Basic Attacks - To be used when low on resources or in skill cooldown, or when you're waiting for the right moment to unleash your big attacks.
ESO has what they call "light attack weaving" cos they designed their combat badly and couldn't fix it, so just pretended that it was part of the design, and it's shit. You have to Basic Attack just before every skill, and using the skill overrides the animation of the Basic Attack but still carries on the Basic Attack despite not actually having been carried out. It's just shit, badly designed and badly coded, and they couldn't be bothered fixing it. Please no basic attack weaving.
[*] Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
I'd much rather have mostly skills/abilities, as they're the things you choose to use depending on the situation in the battle. It's what you have to think about and decide when to utilise. Rather than just letting Auto-Attacks play for you.
Hey all! I have a few follow-up questions for you. Some of you may have already answered these. They're more so additional thought-starters for discussion
Do you like when your weapon is meaningful in your combat rotation, or do you like it best when your weapon is mostly just a stat stick?
Do you want to see weapons more involved than just auto-attacks?
In what games has this been done well, and which games do you feel it’s been done poorly?
Are there any ways in which you could see basic or auto-attacks be improved in the future?
Yes, if you've chosen a weapon, it should have a meaning. If it's just a stat-stick, then the weapons are basically all the same, and so what's the point in having different weapons?! I like Weapon Skills as well as Class Skills, so that the choice of weapon actually has an impact. I mean, you could potentially have two separate skill bars: one for Class and one for Weapons? But I've never played a game with that so I dunno how well it'd work.
Comments
I like the mage element enchantment in your mage showcase, reminds me thief's stealth attack and mesmer's ambush skill in GW2. I think you can lear more from GW2 like warrior's F1(adrenaline skill) to make your version and synergy with basic attack.
update:
I also wonder that does different weapon has different attack speed to reflect different way to deal damage. For example: 2 great swords(GS), GS1 has high attack power but low attack speed and GS2 has low attack power but high attack speed. And the difference between these 2 GSs could be something like: GS1 is better on rotate between skills that don't affected by attack speed to dealing damage, attack speed affects basic attack speed so GS2 is better on skills that giving basic attacks with proc effects like bleeding and maybe you can stacks multiple prco effects.
↓Good youtube channel to learn things about creating games.↓
Masahiro Sakurai on Creating Games:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1DvRY5PyHHt3KN9ghunuw
Standard basic attacks are pointless in my opinion because resource management will be the prime source of power and control in such a circumstance. I also love when basic attacks provide mana replenishment of some kind.
In my opinion any attack from a player should be meaningful. I know this can be outside the realm of an MMORPG. Going back in time a lot of games are just hit A for attack and stand there and watch numbers scroll up the screen. This goes all the way back to muds. The best thing to happen in gaming is player input. I like basic attacks from souls like games. You click your mouse and you get a basic attack. This attack can then be changed with other inputs to create meaningful game play.
Now i know this is considered action combat. But i find it boring to just hit A and watch random numbers scroll up a screen. I feel to have great combat within a game you as the player should be inputting your decisions to create the outcome of battle, not just a random numbers generator when standing next to or targeting an object.
Having an interaction with combat within a game is what makes it feel like you accomplished something. Having a random number go off based on proximity is not engaging game play.
I must also state i am not a fan of set rotations either. These become very boring game play. That is why most ask if items will change what your character can do. They want to spice up their boring game play with an item that will change how one of their spells will work or how the class may change with that item.
I can only hope intrepid studios can be innovative when it comes to basic attacks in combat.
NOTE: Some spelling changes in the quote.
I cannot agree more with Gemboi, Rotations are not fun at all. I want skills that actually make or break an outcome. I don't want a rotation where someone could program a bot to go: 1,1,1,2,1,3,1,1,1,2,1,3,1,1,1,2,1,3 etc.
Rotations to me are about as meaningless as the false choices in dialog. Sure, you may get a slightly different text prompt but if in the end it doesn't change anything why bother adding it?
Then again, I would go further as to ask why do people care about their characters eye color? I have never once found a game where 1 eye color over another has affected anything in the game. So, it's just another meaningless thing that people basically forget about by the time they get their first quest started.
I would be happy if my basic attack was 40% of my game play and the other 60% was meaningful choices. Have some with longer cooldowns and some that are more about timing.
For example:
You notice a mob you are attacking just used a special attack and there is some kind of .5 second stagger from the force they enemy put into the attack. I want an ability that when target is staggered, I can do X. X can be something like stunning damage, or an effect like a knock down.
You should be able to work with your group/team and take advantage of other players abilities.
Player 1 does a knock down, players 2 and 3 use abilities that do extra damage or effects to knocked down opponents.
In the end, are you promoting solo play or team play?
Not saying you shouldn't be able to solo as I Solo'd my EQ shaman from lvl 10-63 with minimal grouping and by minimal, I mean like maybe a total of 100 hours over a few years of game play. And I game on average of 12+ hours per day when not working and 6+ on days I do work.
and can only be applied in the case of tab targetting.
basic right-click, left-click attacks are essential to good gameplay, but should have less impact than skils.
Graveyard's Grin
Your bones dance to my rhythm
Now, this is ofc. very much not a set of fixed terms, but just to clearify where I'm at with this I see a big difference between auto-attacks and basic attacks. Basic attacks is, for me, a player-driven action to use your weapon; you press a button your character swings a sword. Auto-attacks is something that happens without any involvement of the player either than initiation of combat; you have a weapon that your character uses for a defined amount of times for a defined amount of dmg.
Now, Basic attacks and spell density in a rotation goes hand in hand. You can only play with a "set" amount of actions-per-minute, and it's a very fine balance between what you spend your time on.. personally? I would rather spend my time pressing buttons for Awesome animations and cool attacks that does different things than spamming my left-click (or something like that) to simply swing my sword
Do you enjoy using other skills and abilities in between auto-attacks, or are you having the most fun when basic attacks are less important to how much damage you’re doing?
I'd say I definitely enjoy using spells, skills and abilities as my main source of action. I would however say, that if you have the biggest baddest two handed hammer that could crush all of The Other's in a single fell blow, your auto-attacks should reflect that aswell. There should be a fixed amount of dmg coming from your auto-attacks, because it's also a representation of the achievement of getting better and better weapons
What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
I've played alot of different MMO's where auto-attacks and basic-attacks were present. I feel like, the games where there were auto-attacks I could feel the biggest difference between having a good or a bad weapon... To me, the games I've played with basic-attacks - which is mainly ESO - feels clonky... It's not very intuitive to the players when to attack or when to use spells...
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
Auto-attacks should be a representation of your gear. You've put alot of effort into your character and it's gear trying to find the right pieces for a fight to optimize yourself - and even if you're not a Good player and can't the rotations right and are a bit off with your timing, your Base-damage should come from auto-attacks and that should be a direct representation of your gear; caus' skills in a game is more than just knowing the right time to press a certain button; it takes skill and devotion to farm out the right gear and to understand the mechanics behind getting the right gear, bartering with other players, doing professions and so on and so forth
The visuals of the attack
Now regardless of wether you go with passive auto-attacks or player-driven basic attacks a very cool thing to add - which Intrepid has shown us the skills to do - would be a visual diversity! A larger library of motions your character goes through when attacking would be awesome, and to have the visual of the attack reflect the weapon you're using; if you're using a flaming axe there should be cinders and ash in the air after slashing, and if you're using a leafy staff there should be leaves in the air after attacking (and so on and so forth)
hosting photos
Totally agree , it’s has made playing ESO fun , but, until heavy attack builds became viable there was a disadvantage to some players as a result of disability etc. so auto attack seems to be a good as an option.
Auto-attacks: The only purpose for auto attacks should be to normalize the average DPS players do, bringing the players with lower DPS more in line with higher DPS. If "casualization" is not a focus of the game, than there is no purpose for auto attacks.
Basic Attacks & Rotation: I prefer damage/healing rotations that involve a constant usage of abilities with some weaker basic attacks that fill the gaps. There should never be a moment where I don't have a button to press, because that's just boring. Even when I'm trying to get out of a bosses aoe slam, I want something to press since that would increase the skill ceiling, benefiting those capable of multitasking in hectic situations and making them feel like real gamers. Games like WoW tend to have very few "basic attacks" that don't have a cooldown and are used to fill gaps, which I prefer. There's normally one basic attack for single target dps and 1 for aoe and that's all there needs to be. The rest of the abilities should have cooldowns or some sort of condition to use them, such as x amount of casts of y ability. The gaps where basic attacks would be used in-between rotations should be short (1-3 seconds). Having at least 1 second of time in-between rotations allows for a sort of confirmation that you are doing things correctly.
With all the different classes that the game will have available, there is enough room to make classes with brain dead easy rotations and classes with very complex rotations. The most complex rotations should result in the highest damage/healing out of all the classes if done correctly, and the easier rotations should result in the lowest damage/healing. It's frustrating to be constantly beat in DPS by someone playing a class that presses 4 buttons when I'm sweating buckets with my 20 button rotation. There are people that just want an easy rotation and to play the game on auto pilot, so that option should be there for them. Easy access to respeccing to a different class combination or skill tree should be an available to ensure people don't feel like they get stuck with a bad class in case the wheel of balance that developers spin doesn't land in their favor at any given time.
Hi
If I understand what you're saying, you basically don't want to have to acquire a degree in your character and their abilities to have fun.
With that said, I'm curious what games you've played where you felt this was the case, and why? Also, what games have you played in which this wasn't the case, and what made those games fun?
Anyone can feel free to answer this ☝ question
In some MMORPGs, basic attacks are somewhat automatic and (while possibly an "ability") aren't always used as an ability. In those cases, would you say you don't like that playstyle or that use of basic attacks?
Anyone can feel free to answer this ☝ question
Anywhere from being fluff damage over the course to something that makes up a large portion of it
What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
I think that auto attacks should be something that players can choose how effective they are through a build they can make, and this should differ from class to class based on the groundwork on the job's core combat identity is.
Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
Mostly abilities. Though I'm not sure I want a set rotation as I think it may remove some customizability. I tend to prefer when I can play more free-form but still need to play my role in the group properly. I like needing to keep my focus and engaged with my kit, either way. I adore kit interaction, and like having high skill ceilings. I do think that there should be a lower skill floor for the people who don't wish to be limited to this. Though, I understand it could be hard to implement for both groups of players.
I also like having various ways to build said class or ways to play it in general. To list an example: Rift did this quite well. We had multiple types of a class and we were able to choose from 3 of them per build, and we were able to allocate points into whichever tree between those 3 as we liked.
The talent trees from WoW are also a decent reference. Currently we have the main class tree, and the spec tree. For example, Warrior. We get the Warrior tree, and if you spec into Arms, you get that one as a second tree to shift through. They both have their own points you allocate to customize. I feel like said skill trees would be the best way to ensure that players who want more abilities in their rotation like me can do so, and players who don't can make it so that they can make their playstyle to their own liking.
That said, I want to compare two of the specs from WoW to help illustrate when I think auto-attack weaving makes sense.
Assassination Rogue:
Usage of the rogue's abilities in their combat rotation tend to be limited by their energy rather than cooldowns. This class has a slower rotation, particularly when your haste is low. You frequently find yourself with no buttons that can/should be pushed as you wait to regen energy. In my mind, this is the best type of rotation if you plan to have players weave in auto-attacks between their other abilities because the slow nature of the rotation gives the player a chance to focus on ability timing in addition to ability selection.
Fury Warrior:
Short cooldowns, procs, and high resource generation mean that Fury warriors have many abilities to choose from at any given time. Mastering this type of rotation is more about selecting the right ability for the situation than the precise, millisecond timing of its usage. I like the spammy nature of this rotation because I always have a button to press and there is no downtime. Therefore, I wouldn't want to weave auto-attacks in-between ability usage with this type of rotation because it would slow down the rotation's pacing. This playstyle is my personal favorite because I think it feels bad when you have wait to use your abilities.
So as some have stated previously basic attacks aren’t as important for every class. A rogue, warrior and in some ways a archer will rely heavily on basic and heavy attacks due to the play-style of those roles. Where as a cleric, mage, bard and possibly a tank will simply lean more towards abilities and less towards basic attacks because they are more about control and have more time to think and react. Also, having a solidified rotation of abilities that’s been tweaked for that control their role requires is crucial to their success and the groups and basic attacks play a tiny roll in it.
For a rogue and warrior I feel like we are typically in the thick of things where that ability to have half a second to think isn’t there. So for me I’ll have a solid 3-6 abilities I’ll use to simply engage certain targets just to get a feel for how the fight will go and get that initial damage out there. Basic attacks that do respectable damage during the early engage stage are crucial because it helps give me time to think mid fight on the perfect ability for the situation to set myself up for success while still doing damage.
So I feel the smart balance for basic attack damage and usage should depend on the class. I feel Rogue, Warrior and Ranger should have some sort of basic attack damage and basic attack speed leveling within the classes with a slightly higher chance to miss. As for Mage, Cleric, Bard, Summoner (depending on the build) & tank should have some sort of basic attack AoE heavy or increase in damage leveling but longer casting time for their basic attack considering the difference in placement and amount of time on the battle field as well as that rock paper scissors ideal that has been spoken about to fit better into the play style of those classes.
I feel having the ability to choose how effective those basic attacks are through leveling that skill set per weapon and class is the answer. Let me be clear I don’t feel every class should have access to the same basic attacks leveling buffs. It will breed those toxic players who look for exploits like a basic attack magic that does stupid damage with no abilities besides escapes so they can teleport away and keep spamming.
if you cant do your own basic attacks between cool downs for abilities and resource management then what are you doing that's so complicated that you cant press the ability?
Basic attacks should act as a filler per se in most situations. Makes the game seem half assed with class design just to stimulate tiny brain cells with an extra effect.
Let's not even talk about the cheap animation cancellation effect it creates for combat animation fluidity. and if you animation lock it, it's just as awful.
I want to push buttons to make a choice, and commit to that choice before I can make the next one. As in a global cooldown. Being able to use multipleskills at a time might be a gear perk or class identity perk, but otherwise I want to feel like my choices matter.
A basic attack should be something we use normally, while waiting on a situation to occur where the other skills provide more value to use them.
Example: I am a mage, and I am throwing wand attacks at an enemy. This should be my default choice, unless a situation happens that makes it better for me to throw some other skill.
Should there also be skills I want to use all the time? Yes, essentially though they are just bigger basic attacks, like throwing the lightning ball through a target to do lots of damage. It does more damage and not much else, so its something we default to pressing on cooldown without needing much decision making. This sort of thing leads to spell rotations to maximize dps, nothing wrong with that, and depending on how the cooldown of all these skills line up, may not even have a 'set rotation' at all, but rather a priority of use this first, this second, etc.
An enemy player will see me using this lightning ball, and then they can make the choice to interrupt me or not as an example. Thats why the bigger basic attacks also must exist.
We do need situational moves, and aoe, a interrupt, a movement skill, things to amplify teammates, things to debuff enemies. We need things we can use to make choices with our button press. Do damage, or do effect?
Not very important to me really. I'm more in the camp of ability based combat. But I expect basic attacks to have their place and role. I'd expect them to be used to apply effects/debuffs potentially. I'd expect them to be a backup to be used when out of mana or otherwise trying to conserve mana. Or when juggling cooldowns of abilities. And they could potentially be used as a mechanism to regen mana.
I want my rotation to mostly be abilities. Certain classes or builds having more of a dependence on basic attacks is fine with me though. But I'm not playing an MMO with classes and abilities to just run around left click spamming.
I am 100% against ESO style animation canceling/weaving. I have read wiki quotes that Ashes intends to not have that. I hope that's still the case. And I have to warn that ESO didn't intend to have it either. It was an accident, a bug, that they couldn't fix without overhauling the whole combat system. So it became a feature. I really hope Ashes combat devs are taking care to not allow it to become a bug in this game too.
Example 1: WoW. In WoW auto attacks range from being one of the bigger sources of that class's DPS, to their main proc generator for their bigger DPS cooldowns, to flat out being completely useless. But in almost all these cases, auto attacks end up being mostly an afterthought, or worse... a hinderance. Take DPS monks, they are a class that is by design, not doing auto attacks as much as other melee DPS. But the designers for the class don't remember this fact, and any artificial power design for monks is ruined because the developers attach them to auto attacks without realizing that the class doesn't AA as much. Auto attacks are taken for granted so much on any non-spell caster that its just assumed powers can be oriented on it that it can hurt gear/class design,
Example 2: SWTOR. SWTOR doesn't actually have an auto attack system, instead they have basic attacks, which do as much damage as an auto attack would in other MMOs but have to be manually pressed. Sadly, these attacks are quickly dropped off a players bar almost five levels into the game. They simply are ignored because there was never any iteration to make them worth a players time. The game got around this by fleshing each class out so their resources and talent procs never required basic attacks/autos to function. In many cases having to use the basic attacks would actively harm any classes rotations, both damage and enjoyability wise.
If auto attacks/basic attacks didn't feel like you ran out of the "fun" buttons to press, and had an active part in a players rotation or set up for massive attacks then I could see them not being a bother. But in this and in several other games I didn't lost, I just did not find basics/autos as an entertaining or engaging piece of the combat puzzle.
if the item contains a damage value range then additional attributions such as damage bonuses. But then we get into a whole world of proc chance with RNG burst which hasn't been officially addressed as far as I know which I am not really a fan of as damage consistency can rely too much on RNG and make your class feel like a slot machine rather than an appropriate range of expected damage values for values and synergy cohesion especially with how that is currently planned (ie gaining procs for frost from other frost archetypes).
Additionally to this I am curious about how enchanting will play a role in all of this with percentile procedural chances high or low vs a more relatively guaranteed result.
Adding layers and layers with too much RNG dependability can result in the classes design to feel like it's only fun a couple minutes at a time situationally assuming proc and RNG is in your favour opposed to more consistent synergistic flow with a smaller burst value window with said proc's/RNG.
Overcomplicating the combat systems with too many RNG layers doesn't usually result in a good relative class balance across the board per se especially with the requirement for fluidity between PvE and PvP as situations arise.
SOLO: while Swords of Legends Online hyped down pretty fast and did not turn out to be the most popular mmorpg, it did have an amazing combat system i played up to this day. I played the funny scythe healer class that could also switch to DD if needed, and it had in both version the setup of having the "autoattack" being the main skill - as a healer my autoattack was my main heal skill that my skills would further improve, or give me more bonuses to overcome global cd's, but it all resolved around the 2 left- and rightclick autoattacks being upkept all the time to keep up the rotation, and your skills would weave into that. It played really well and i enjoyed it. The damagedealer build had a similar concept with 2 mainattacks on left and rightclick to build up stacks and "reap" them, which got enhanced by your skillkit and some additional utility skills, but you get the idea.
Dragon's Prophet: maybe i spent too much time in this one, but it's the combat system i've dedicated over 8 years to already and it has a concept of shifting the main damage focus to the actual SKILLS, while not rendering your basic "autoattacks" completely useless afterall - first of all different combinations of autoattack exist here (leftclick + rightcklick, jump + rightclick etc.) and one certain combination of 3 leftclicks + rightclick would recover your Actionpoints in combat, which any class needs to use sometimes when they spam too many skills without weaving in enough autoattack combos or other means to recover your actionpoints (through potions e.g.). Other classes, like the Ranger, simply weave in leftclick autoattacks between their normal skill cd's because you do not have enough skills to constantly spam them, so you do autoattacks in between for additional dps. Another thing that exists here is that quite a few skills across different classes "morph" your autoattack - in a sense that if you use this skill (say a Freezing Pulse) your next Autoattack is transformed to shoot out an Ice Shard that will deal extra Damage. I really like this feature cause it's another means of not letting your "autoattack" button becomming useless, as some other games tend to do it.
Both.It should depend on how you build your class. There should be an option to completely focus on spell with minimal or no use of weapons to a class build that almost completely focuses on basic attack with spells that enhance that kind of gameplay ( Spells that add elemental dmg on weapons, speed for basic attacks, spell that activate on basic attack hit, spells that activate on successful dodge or block or deflect etc). Hell, you could make entire spell based on deflect parry/deflect mechanics like a riposte.
Do you want to see weapons more involved than just auto-attacks?
Ofc! Maybe even as slight gap closers or ministuns for example. Imagine charging/holding a button, for example, halberd. Slight gap closer in front would be nice, but you would be vulnerable to damage in that 2-3 seconds charging up.
Or maybe a two handed mace/warhammer when you charge 2-3 second heavy attack that does a minimal stunning attack with higher dmg if you connect it.
Maybe a rapier that does 2-3 slashing dmg in a cone of you charge it. (Dota 2 Pangolier Swashbuckle ability as a reference)
While holding a shield in active block, press attack to do shield bash...
Point is, each weapon attack should feel different.
Also check out, for example, how charge attack of might versus sorcery and finesse weapons work in a game called Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
Check out how charge cancelling and moves were done in that game.
It funny, in one of your showcases you showed us how some dagger attacks look in your game. I was INSTANTLY reminded of this game.
3.In what games has this been done well, and which games do you feel it’s been done poorly?
It's poorly done in WoW. Its basically a filler if you run out of mana or if you are really good rogue as something to finish your opponen (throwing weapon).
In a game that is done well, and by that, I mean too well is Black Desert. That game is just combo galore. Its a fun combat, but it doesn't fit MMO with a massive number of player on screen. Especially all the flashy stuff that looks like a fireworks on a battlefield. That game doesn't even feel like an MMO to me.
Another example of, in my opinion bad basic attacks is ESO. Animations are boring and stiff. At least its a nice balance of basic attacks and spell casting.
Honestly, I can find a single MMO who has done it properly. Maybe Tera, a bit.
Mostly the games who started out as an MMO and were later turned into a single player games have done it somewhat good like Dragon Age: Inquisition and Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.
4. Are there any ways in which you could see basic or auto-attacks be improved in the future?
Yes, by adding
a)Light, medium and heavy attacks.
b) Weapons with different speeds, charge time.
c) Weapon attack cancellation (at least for Charge Attacks if you add them). Like if you charge heavy attack with a two handed warhammer you can cancel it before it reaches its peak. Heavy weapons like that which are high risk(slow speed)-high reward (big dmg) like two handed maces, greatswords, great axes, long bows versus Low risk (fast speed,sure hit)-medium reward (medium damage) like wands, shortswords, shortbows
Attacks with with certain conditions:
- Attack with dagger from stealth should have a same damage as close and personal combat.
- Attacks from back shouldn't do the same damage as the one from from-Especially if you are rogue.
Wands shouldn't be powerful except when you reach certain charges by hitting a target...
...that sort of conditions.
Weapons should be better at certain things than others. For example two handed axe is good at AOE cleave damage, but melee staff is good in cone elemental damage.
Give your weapons character and not just in the way they look, but how they feel when used in combat.
They're just filler, and don't really add anything interesting to the gameplay besides tendonitis inflaming frantic button clicking, so it maintains the illusion of players doing something.
Small downtime breaks in combat during long battles, or between encounters to recover MP actually encourages MP management, and reduces raid fatigue on players.
These MP regen breaks are not the same as the delays you showed between World Event Waves, those world event waves should only be 30 seconds long.
I much prefer expensive spells, going OOM and having to sit/drink/eat, in or out of combat to recover MP - rather than having to continually spam filler/auto-attacks/wand/ranged attacks.
Players should have the ability to choose/spec how they want to play, and also how they recover MP.
I've suggested in the past that speccing away your ranged slot, should increase spell damage since you are eliminating your filler ranged attacks.
I want big, expensive, massive damage spells with no filler attacks, go OOM, and recover/sit/drink/eat
I would much rather cast 4 explosive Fireballs that each hit for 2,000 damage, go OOM, and literally have to sit in combat to recover MP, than having to cast 100 Fireballs that hit for 75 damage each, go OOM, then have to pick away at the target with my Wand at 12 damage per hit to fill out the remaining damage.
Sure, smaller hits, filler, and Auto-attacks may be more manageable on threat generation - but that just isn't fun now is it? Make glass cannons fun and dangerous again, thank you!
I fully endorse and encourage a system without auto-attacks for Ashes. Filler attacks, in some iterations, are perfectly acceptable and even beneficial to the sensation of impact and weight of other abilities. If basic attacks, not being automatic, are to be added, it would greatly benefit from variation in what is available. The variation or option can be as simple as having the choice of what your basic attack's damage type and appearance are. or having multiple of them to use or choose.
Games that allow for an enjoyable assortment of active abilities available at all times, like WoW, have no room for proper basic attacks. In such a system, a true ability becomes the equivalent of a basic attack — simple abilities to fill in between the more impactful or costly ones. Being able to weave together a couple of simple abilities until short cooldowns become available imparts a more fast and exciting feeling to the combat, in contrast to the alternative of bland attacks or auto-attacks.
Auto-attacks remove a sensation of agency, do negligible damage, and cause short spans of combat boredom. Combat should be active, reactive, proactive — the player should be able to remain consistently in the fray, hectic and thoroughly engaged. There are still opportunities of skill/talent selections to allow for some players to opt out of the ability variety and select simpler abilities and fewer abilities actioned per X unit of time.
Games like ESO, with a woefully lacking combat system and set of active abilities, employ simple auto-attacks as such a mechanic adds to their complexity deficit. Adding instead to a complex system can be detrimental.
So at this point the NEED for auto attack is completely resolved, it is no longer necessary, and can still be used as a design decisions instead of an active system. I understand how it can be useful for pacing your intake of basic attack driven meters for abilities--like classic WoW fighter and rogue.
For Ashes of Creation, it has no place. Ashes is about expression and agency, where our actions and decisions should matter, both in the moment and with every bit of preparation leading up to it. To that extent, a robust, dynamic, and expansive combat system is important to achieving the overall goals of gameplay.
So with this, I want to offer the idea that weapon attacks are just as meaningful as ability uses and active defenses, not a second tier method to maintain damage output while you wait for the juicy stuff. One of the best examples of this I can think of is DCUO, where weapons have dynamic properties that allow players to stack heavy damage and control the battle. From the high combo in-your-face dual swords to the range, damage, and debuffs from the Rifle, each weapon kit feels powerful and contributes to a lot of damage output. If I recall, it and other games after have a sense of queueing combos like some street fighting games, so auto attack is instead replaced by player input sequence that can be halted by other actions like defenses or some ability uses.
This is more what I want to see. A sword isn't just a stat block that is essentially interchangeable for an axe or mace with the same attributes, not should the difference be minimal passive properties like increased crit for axes vs increased change to hit for swords. The attack patterns, the ways the patterns flow with their intended ranges, and what the patterns can do, is all room for a lot of expression. This goes back to DCUO and the like, where a basic attack + heavy attack + use of directions + combo chains + active blocking and defenses, makes up what each kind of weapon can be. This means players can learn to use different weapons to adjust their play style, and get more variation on what they can do by swapping the weapon type instead of just getting the biggest viable stat block they can equip.
And I want to get back to something I said up there. Chance to hit. That needs to not exist. A hot may be so weak that it glances off tough armor, but if the weapon collider passes through the enemy hitbox collider, that's a hit, not a % chance to hit. Unless the creature is incorporeal or phases in and out of existence, there should be no "chance" to it.
That said, I can see wiggle room when dealing with an automatic block mechanic or evade mechanic, but these need to have the motions to match it. That auto block cancels the current action, which gives the trade off of reducing damage but getting thrown off. Likewise for auto evasion, I don't wanna see them so Matrix style bullet time where they just weave out of the attacks and keep going, but instead that it is an automatic back step or dive or whatever to get clear of the incoming weapon collider. And with all that, I wish to push back against this paragraph's contents, as I don't think systems that interrupt players to engage defenses of these kinds will facilitate a smooth combat system, and instead leave players frustrated when they find themselves out of position, or accidentally cancelling a timely action just to shrug
off trivial damage.
Debuffs based on attack inputs makes sense for Ashes of Creation. With the stacking and popping/escalating systems already in place, I would want to see this emphasized further with weapons. Additionally, like we've seen in archetype demos, and like I also enjoy in games like Path of Exile, the ability to sacrifice an active ability slot in exchange for a toggleable method to pump your weapon effectiveness helps to further emphasize the importance of weapons being meaningful.
I feel like I have a ton more to say, but that's it for now. In short, boo to auto attack, boo to attacks being filler, yay to active attacks that matter, yay to weapon categories being mechanically different and meaningful.
For me, Basic Attacks are just that. They're what you use in downtime from using your actual skills.
Auto-Attacks - None at all whatsoever.
Basic Attacks - To be used when low on resources or in skill cooldown, or when you're waiting for the right moment to unleash your big attacks.
ESO has what they call "light attack weaving" cos they designed their combat badly and couldn't fix it, so just pretended that it was part of the design, and it's shit. You have to Basic Attack just before every skill, and using the skill overrides the animation of the Basic Attack but still carries on the Basic Attack despite not actually having been carried out. It's just shit, badly designed and badly coded, and they couldn't be bothered fixing it. Please no basic attack weaving.
I'd much rather have mostly skills/abilities, as they're the things you choose to use depending on the situation in the battle. It's what you have to think about and decide when to utilise. Rather than just letting Auto-Attacks play for you.
Yes, if you've chosen a weapon, it should have a meaning. If it's just a stat-stick, then the weapons are basically all the same, and so what's the point in having different weapons?! I like Weapon Skills as well as Class Skills, so that the choice of weapon actually has an impact. I mean, you could potentially have two separate skill bars: one for Class and one for Weapons? But I've never played a game with that so I dunno how well it'd work.