Will there be consumable ammo

First post and much respect to the team. Thank you for endeavoring to make such a game. Now to my question.

Will there be consumable ammo for rangers or other classes or perhaps ships with the potion launcher?
Will this improve stats while using them? Will classes be able to craft them?

Thanks!

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hanoldbuddy

Vaknar wrote: »

Wooo! \o/ welcome to the forums and great first post!

Like @Azherae , @Tyranthraxus and others have mentioned, Steven did chat about bows and ammo not too long ago, which can be found on that wiki link!

Don't let that stop you from discussing that, though

Do you like games that have ammo? Why or why not?

What about ammo do you think would add to or diminish your experience in-game?

WootWoot! a message from the staff!

I was thinking maybe for ships ammo might be something to consider. Maybe they have a limited supply so that they run out and then must board the enemy, but I could see this as only viable in PvP and maybe not PvE as the ship would probably need to still fire on the Kraken cause not everyone is a ranged character. It's easy to just wipe it away and say no ammo that fixes a lot of problems, but the complexity you are building with the game intrigues me to think of how ammo would work. Not that I have a solution. The benefit of ammo would really have to be worthwhile to justify adding that extra layer of complexity, tediousness of making it, and sucks to not have it to the game. I want to stop making the argument for it though because I'm not sure i believe in the fight for having ammo. If it could be implemented correctly though, i think it'd add another layer of welcomed complexity to this already beautify complex game. I've been telling all my friends about it since I saw that watch party on reddit go crazy when Alpha 2 was announced for 2024. That was my introduction to Ashes. I've never seen excitement like that for a game, and now I'm excited!

Enigmatic Sage

@hanoldbuddy That's a good point about stock piling the naval ships with additional ammo especially if the different class of ships play integral roles while on the seas.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Ships

It definitely would seem like a frigate would be outgunned by a galleon with ship size, weapons and crew. I definitely agree for naval PvP or Raids on how it would add more depth and complexity to the raid with ideal preparations and resource management.

Curious what kind of variables will affect the naval ships based on weight and if things like wind direction play a more significant role.

Raven016

Vaknar wrote: »

Do you like games that have ammo? Why or why not?

What about ammo do you think would add to or diminish your experience in-game?

Given that
Items made for final consumption are not dropped, such as consumable items created by the Cooking and Alchemy professions.[24]
Arrows would just take inventory space.
Having potions for all classes is acceptable. But I would prefer more potion types.

Caww

ammo counts suck....

ArnasPanika

Loved buying arrows for 1h/2h/3h worth of farm (depending on where the party will go hunting), loved crafting arrows of materials found in the world, because it was cheaper than buying from other players/crafters or shops, loved stock pilling the warehouse with arrows to be ready for tomorrow's farm and thinking that I won't need to care for ammo tomorrow, because I'm preparing in the evening. Loved realizing that arrows are gone but the mob is still not dead and figuring out how not to die, trying to run and ask for help from other players or having a dagger in inventory, equipping it and finishing the mob and thinking I have to be more aware of how many arrows are left next time before starting a farm/grind/leaving the city. Loved that arrows did weigh a lot and I had to think about inventory management as well (maybe to leave some more potions in warehouse/bank while having a longer farm out of city).

CROW3

As a ranger, when I'm out of arrows, my overall effectiveness decreases significantly compared to other non-ammo based classes (such as fighters). So if you're going to implement separate ammo, a few suggestions for QoL:
1. Allow ammo to be stacked to something like 1-2k to avoid extra ammo taking up too many pack spaces
2. Allow basic ammo (i.e. wood arrows) to be easily crafted in the wilds
3. Add a clear indicator of ammo left in my inventory next to ammo slot in the char sheet (so as my bag sizes increase I have an at-a-glance view of where I stand

I don't want an ammo to be a leash limiting exploration because I need to go back to town to buy arrows.

Raven016

CROW3 wrote: »

As a ranger, when I'm out of arrows, my overall effectiveness decreases significantly compared to other non-ammo based classes (such as fighters). So if you're going to implement separate ammo, a few suggestions for QoL:
1. Allow ammo to be stacked to something like 1-2k to avoid extra ammo taking up too many pack spaces
2. Allow basic ammo (i.e. wood arrows) to be easily crafted in the wilds
3. Add a clear indicator of ammo left in my inventory next to ammo slot in the char sheet (so as my bag sizes increase I have an at-a-glance view of where I stand

I don't want an ammo to be a leash limiting exploration because I need to go back to town to buy arrows.

Fair would be also non-ammo based classes (such as fighters). to have to sharpen their swords.
And tanks to repair their armor.
I am not sure players will like depending on artisan classes while they farm.

Nova_terra

Raven016 wrote: »

CROW3 wrote: »

As a ranger, when I'm out of arrows, my overall effectiveness decreases significantly compared to other non-ammo based classes (such as fighters). So if you're going to implement separate ammo, a few suggestions for QoL:
1. Allow ammo to be stacked to something like 1-2k to avoid extra ammo taking up too many pack spaces
2. Allow basic ammo (i.e. wood arrows) to be easily crafted in the wilds
3. Add a clear indicator of ammo left in my inventory next to ammo slot in the char sheet (so as my bag sizes increase I have an at-a-glance view of where I stand

I don't want an ammo to be a leash limiting exploration because I need to go back to town to buy arrows.

Fair would be also non-ammo based classes (such as fighters). to have to sharpen their swords.
And tanks to repair their armor.
I am not sure players will like depending on artisan classes while they farm.

Fully personal opinion but basic ammos almost never read well into anything other than survival crafting games. I totally love the ideas of quivers with CDs or even making quivers something like "for the next 3 minutes your arrows deal cold damage and do 1.1x damage" and making those consumables for a bit of a power spike or something but having to lug around 4000 arrows or constantly having to make sure you are stocked and what that would mean for spellcasters/melee martial classes ends up being something a bit tedious.

Songcaller

We don't want separate ammo or the need to sharpen weapons thanks. This isn't a survival game.

Mag7spy

I honestly don't understand why people want to layer random repetitive things that don't' enhance any kind of gameplay.

Like they are out here being like "Guys lets make this game bad for no reason."

CROW3

Raven016 wrote: »

Fair would be also non-ammo based classes (such as fighters). to have to sharpen their swords.
And tanks to repair their armor.
I am not sure players will like depending on artisan classes while they farm.

There's precedent for implementing ammo without something like sharpening swords - e.g. the first 10 years of WoW. Hence, the 'if'. I prefer they didn't have ammo, unless it was special ammo.

Also, all classes need to repair their gear, a Ranger would need to repair their bow as well.

Raven016

Neurath wrote: »

We don't want separate ammo or the need to sharpen weapons thanks. This isn't a survival game.

But... you could throw the sharpening stone and do a head critical hit

^
This I didn't wanted to post but survived because this forum saves every half edited idea. Actually I was looking for a different smiley, one more appropriate for "critical hit". Couldn't find one.

CROW3 wrote: »

Raven016 wrote: »

Fair would be also non-ammo based classes (such as fighters). to have to sharpen their swords.
And tanks to repair their armor.
I am not sure players will like depending on artisan classes while they farm.

There's precedent for implementing ammo without something like sharpening swords - e.g. the first 10 years of WoW. Hence, the 'if'. I prefer they didn't have ammo, unless it was special ammo.

Also, all classes need to repair their gear, a Ranger would need to repair their bow as well.

What I would not like to see is ammo taking inventory space.
Special ammo which runs out after using it is like having a buff which also runs out after leaving the city.
I think there will be more such game mechanics. Maybe spending some time in the tavern, eating fresh food. Or visiting some NPCs and getting their blessings.
Potions will also run out and serve a similar purpose. If we will have dexterity or poison potions, those could have the same effect as special ammo.
The disadvantage is that if everything relies on food and potions, then the artisan professions is also reduced to these two when it could actually spread into more. Ideally a player should require the services for more artisans to prevent players to be self sufficient and to reward players who prefer to be artisans and support classes.

CROW3

Raven016 wrote: »

What I would not like to see is ammo taking inventory space.

Nominal ammo, 100% agree. Special ammo, it would make sense to take up space. BG3 is a good example.

Special ammo which runs out after using it is like having a buff which also runs out after leaving the city. I think there will be more such game mechanics. Maybe spending some time in the tavern, eating fresh food. Or visiting some NPCs and getting their blessings. Potions will also run out and serve a similar purpose. If we will have dexterity or poison potions, those could have the same effect as special ammo.

The disadvantage is that if everything relies on food and potions, then the artisan professions is also reduced to these two when it could actually spread into more. Ideally a player should require the services for more artisans to prevent players to be self sufficient and to reward players who prefer to be artisans and support classes.

Just parsing the two topics: buffs / special ammo, and consumable nominal ammo.

Agree with you that special ammo can essentially be treated the same as potions relative to the crafters that make either. Just another layer of the economy.

If consumable nominal ammo is a thing - I DO NOT want nominal ammo to have a cross dependency with other players. That would be a no good, vile, horrible, evil system.

Mag7spy

We are going to need you to leave the group, your dps is dropping off by 25%, go buy more special ammo and you can come back to the group. No we aren't giving you gold spend your own gold or find another group.

Story part 2*

But i just came back from getting arrow that gold adds up, these mobs and tanky and I'm using hundreds of arrows, I'm not making any gold.

That is your fault for not being a mage, you wanted to be different knowing no one plays that class for any pve content. Have fun with another guild we just gong o black list you for wasting our time.

Depraved

Mag7spy wrote: »

We are going to need you to leave the group, your dps is dropping off by 25%, go buy more special ammo and you can come back to the group. No we aren't giving you gold spend your own gold or find another group.

Story part 2*

But i just came back from getting arrow that gold adds up, these mobs and tanky and I'm using hundreds of arrows, I'm not making any gold.

That is your fault for not being a mage, you wanted to be different knowing no one plays that class for any pve content. Have fun with another guild we just gong o black list you for wasting our time.

make an archer only party duh ;3

i dont like ammo too much but i suppose they exist for balance reasons, or some weird idea of balance. if you are carrying arrows, you are carrying less potions and other consumables than melee classes

Mag7spy

Depraved wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

We are going to need you to leave the group, your dps is dropping off by 25%, go buy more special ammo and you can come back to the group. No we aren't giving you gold spend your own gold or find another group.

Story part 2*

But i just came back from getting arrow that gold adds up, these mobs and tanky and I'm using hundreds of arrows, I'm not making any gold.

That is your fault for not being a mage, you wanted to be different knowing no one plays that class for any pve content. Have fun with another guild we just gong o black list you for wasting our time.

make an archer only party duh ;3

i dont like ammo too much but i suppose they exist for balance reasons, or some weird idea of balance. if you are carrying arrows, you are carrying less potions and other consumables than melee classes

I don't think there will be a limit on what you can carry really (within reason). My issues are seeing the game and its direction and the consequences. That is why i did the story though a more extreme take on negative player opinion.

I also don't like the comparison of they are just like buffs, as it only means they have another buff on top of every other one to get. Buffs should be more about players than this mico managing of 1000 foods and different types of potions.

Quiver is the best way to go having its own equipment type as it makes it more exciting. Such quivers can have a buff on them that allows your arrows to have higher increased chance to have elements.

hanoldbuddy

Mag7spy wrote: »

I honestly don't understand why people want to layer random repetitive things that don't' enhance any kind of gameplay.

Like they are out here being like "Guys lets make this game bad for no reason."

Well I don't think its like that, just wondering. Also some people like ammo. Just asking a question to get input because if it could be implemented well, then its not boring. Its called a discussion man...add to it, think of something intelligent to say, don't just call people names, amigo.

Mag7spy

hanoldbuddy wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I honestly don't understand why people want to layer random repetitive things that don't' enhance any kind of gameplay.

Like they are out here being like "Guys lets make this game bad for no reason."

Well I don't think its like that, just wondering. Also some people like ammo. Just asking a question to get input because if it could be implemented well, then its not boring. Its called a discussion man...add to it, think of something intelligent to say, don't just call people names, amigo.

What name did I call you?

So its only disccusion if someone agrees with you, and not when someone says it makes the game worse lmao. Liking ammo is not a reason to make a game worse without bringing up a valid reason for restriction while acknowledging the type of game and the gameplay loop.

You have done neither in advocating your point.

Solvryn

hanoldbuddy wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I honestly don't understand why people want to layer random repetitive things that don't' enhance any kind of gameplay.

Like they are out here being like "Guys lets make this game bad for no reason."

Well I don't think its like that, just wondering. Also some people like ammo. Just asking a question to get input because if it could be implemented well, then its not boring. Its called a discussion man...add to it, think of something intelligent to say, don't just call people names, amigo.

I came up with ammo for ranger weapons and reagents for casting spells.

I can live with it, I can live without it.

Probably won’t work for Ashes.

hanoldbuddy

Mag7spy wrote: »

hanoldbuddy wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

I honestly don't understand why people want to layer random repetitive things that don't' enhance any kind of gameplay.

Like they are out here being like "Guys lets make this game bad for no reason."

Well I don't think its like that, just wondering. Also some people like ammo. Just asking a question to get input because if it could be implemented well, then its not boring. Its called a discussion man...add to it, think of something intelligent to say, don't just call people names, amigo.

What name did I call you?

So its only disccusion if someone agrees with you, and not when someone says it makes the game worse lmao. Liking ammo is not a reason to make a game worse without bringing up a valid reason for restriction while acknowledging the type of game and the gameplay loop.

You have done neither in advocating your point.

Well you didnt exactly call me a name, but you said that people were thinking something like "Guys, lets make this game bad for no reason."

I'm also just raising a question, not giving any answers. I was just curious. Debate with ideas or intelligent thoughts is a good thing, even if you disagree, but don't just point fingers and say we're trying to make the game bad. I'm just wondering if anyone has any ideas about ammo and how if possible that implementation would be a good thing.

I did raise a point about maybe ships having ammo an interesting concept. I'm trying to reach for the lore aspect of how is this believable that rangers and ships can keep shooting without ammo because I'm somewhat a realist or whatever when it come to games. I can make compromises and I think no ammo in AoC is fine and I'm willing to compromise.

I just expect more from these conversations than insults. Ideas, or reasons why ammo is bad are better than insults.

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