No quest related waypoints.

I think the number one worst thing about modern MMOs is they show you exactly where to go. No-one is confused about where to go, so naturally people don't group up, there is 0 incentive to read the quests because it's unnecessary for completing the quest and you could spend that time you would be reading getting ahead of everyone else in levels and content.
(If anyone doesn't like that mindset, I hate to tell you that the best guilds pay attention to who levels the fastest and who gets attuned the quickest, ect. Whether or not you get in raids week one or week three depends on how fast you do content.)

I have no idea whether ashes plans to have waypoints for quests or shown quest areas, but I'm pleading that they DO NOT.
Let us not feel disadvantaged for reading the quests, and let people be a little confused as to where to go sometimes. That extends the shelf life of, in my opinion, the best part of the mmorpg experience; Leveling.

TLDR:

No waypoints=
+Reading quests
+More Groups
+Longer Leveling

Waypoints=
+Mindless quest training like New World
+People only group once they realize they can't do something solo
+Faster leveling=Faster Endgame Meta

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Comments

Dygz

The challenge of the game should not be trying to figure out where to go.
Same reason why MMORPGs have mini-maps and/or a compass - in addition to a larger map which indicates player location.
Lots of people have exceedingly poor navigation and spatial awareness in a 2D setting with limited senses.

Mag7spy

Another one of these post "Let people be confused where to go" people out here trying to be like what if we made this mmorpg bad so it would be better. Confusion without a purpose is not making the game more interesting and just adding more tedious elements to more aspects of the game.

Mag7spy

Fun part about questing is the journey there, the story, interaction and how it affects things.

Trying to make the journey bad, in turn makes questing bad. There should be plenty of hidden elements and reasons to explore which make question and exploration a lot more fun.

If you personally want things to be extra difficulty you would refuse to use map and other elements. But as you or one pointed out you use add-on if they are available. Point to the fact that it is not a element you care about enough to enjoy.

Could anyone play a single player game maybe like elden ring and play it as easy and get hacks, sure. But that ruins the game and they deal and overcome the difficulty for most players. Because hat is a fun element of the game they care about, which makes it look worse on you for this kind of suggestion while using add ons in WoW.

Tyranthraxus

I can support waypoints for things like *exploration* quests; Such quests wherein you NEED to be within so-many-meters of a specific location. However, it would be preferable to avoid them for most other types of quests.

Additional challenges such as having an elite enemy or mob at the location of a waypoint are typically enough to augment exploration-type quests.

Songcaller

I liked the a1 approach. I hope the a1 approach does not change.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Imoxator wrote: »

Give the questing an opportunity to have socializing occur, where players ask other players for help if they’re stuck.

Except they won't, which is my point

I disagree.

If I'm stuck, I'll look for help from players.

The thing is, rather than just yelling out hoping someone will answer, or walking uo to random people and asking, or asking friends hoping they aren't busy, I'll simply go straight to where I know players willing and wanting to help will have that information for me.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/

Ludullu

Noaani wrote: »

I disagree.

The thing is, rather than just yelling out hoping someone will answer, or walking uo to random people and asking, or asking friends hoping they aren't busy, I'll simply go straight to where I know players willing and wanting to help will have that information for me.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/

I am bad at reading intent in text, but I think you're joking, right?

Enigmatic Sage

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I disagree.

The thing is, rather than just yelling out hoping someone will answer, or walking uo to random people and asking, or asking friends hoping they aren't busy, I'll simply go straight to where I know players willing and wanting to help will have that information for me.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/

I am bad at reading intent in text, but I think you're joking, right?

They got a subtle way of joking at times but I don't think this is the case. It's evident many players from mmorpg's especially mainstream ones rarely do go to other players for questions especially with the accessibility of add-ons and websites for information. Game design plays a big role in that as well. A lot of these MMORPG's are more like Massive Single-player Online (MSO) due to encouraging players to interact less via theme park design. If you look at amusement park designs, consumers don't usually mingle much, they just follow the map to what attracts them and wait in lines. Add technology in the mix, well you get the idea.

The internet makes it so people can exclude themselves from mingling more. I remember in early Dark Age of Camelot days, there was no quick minimise and open up 20 web browsers to find everything within a few seconds as there is today. The frontier map for RvR was mysterious and fun to explore. Players set up outposts and communicated, great times to be a gamer who enjoyed immersion to be honest. World of Warcraft let that die with add-ons and theme parking implementation. Many MMORPG's followed suit as every AAA studio was trying to get in on the cash cow. The target audience and demographic diminished and the monthly active subscriptions proved it.

Raven016

Vissox wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

for everything else that i can do, other than running around talking to npc.

why do I play mmorpg? i like partying up and doing dungeons
castle sieges
pvp events
open world pvp
killing mobs.
building my character, thats the best part for me.

i rather spend 10 hours killing mobs than 10 hours running around questing.

im not gonna say hey remove quests because the game isnt about me, its about what people like. people liek questing and markers.

i could ask you the same thing. if you like questing so much, why are you playing mmorpg? just play the witcher or something.

Let me rephrase. Since you hate questing, why should anyone value your input on how quests are done?
Since you established your just gonna not like questing anyways, I think it's probably a safe bet for intrepid to focus on players who actually like the "RPG" Elements in an MMORPG.

Because somebody who hates them is more critical. The others are more tolerant.
A quest system which even Depraved would appreciate would be superior to quests you previously seen in other mmorpgs.

Kilion

As mentioned before, people who provide you with specific tasks often times are also able to point out where that task should be fulfilled. Which brings us to the point that might be more significant in that - many quests in other games are so pointless that the quest giver could have - theoretically - done it themselves, while the other quests often don't go far enough IMO.

Proposal 1: Deeper quests

"Speak to the mayor." - No, farmer no. 294762, go speak to him yourself.

"Kill 20 bandtis in the castle ruin" or "Kill 10 wolves." - That's not a quest, that's a task that's a fix to an issue that 'should' run deeper. There might be a reason why this pack of wolves has come out of the forest and stepped onto that farmers field.

In my opinion good quest design would be to not end the quest there but to automatically extend the quest to explore the cause of the migration - which would mean exploring an area with no further specification. There you could find for example tracks of the pack or big feathers and the carcasses of a wolf pack leader and ultimately a cave in which a gryphon has settled down to nest. Then you give player the option: Either kill the gryphon for its skin, feathers and egg (gryphon husbandry incoming!) or steal the eggs, build a new nest atop the castle ruin with the bandits and let the gryphon not only take care of the bandits but also secure it from being infested with bandits again, which grants access to their loot and also a gryphon egg (because why not).

With that I'd say the quest is completed and most of it would be something where you cant just put down a marker on a map (especially when the hints to what happened in the forest are dynamically generated - tracking those with external programs would by breaching Intrepids Security Policies).

It would also be funny to have "deceiver" quests where the wrong places are marked on purpose and rewards might be reduced when you visit the decoy places "oh no, too much time has gone by and part of the harvest has already been destroyed by the wolves!". And there could be strong hints to this being a deception so that one could acutally go directly to the right place.

Proposal 2: Extra rewards

If Intrepid intends for player to engage with their quests more and not rely on map markers to find their way, maybe they could hide additional resources within the quest texts, stuff that can be found on the way there or in a secret location near the quest site.

Example: "The bandits have holed themselves in down by the old castle ruin near the lake. To get there, follow the road that splits at the statue of the Journeyman and take the right path. It might help to sacrifice 4 gold coins at the Journeymans Statue, he grants blessings and bestows good luck onto adventurers like you!"

If a player receives the blessing, they could have a better drop chance for good quality loot at the castle ruin and/or are able to open a hidden trap door that leads into the storeroom of an especially greedy bandit who took more than his fair share.

CONCLUSION

I'd say rather than just disallowing map markers, it would make more sense to provide reasons & incentives to not rely on them in the first place. Basically reward deeper engagement with the primary material.

Noaani

NiKr wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

I disagree.

The thing is, rather than just yelling out hoping someone will answer, or walking uo to random people and asking, or asking friends hoping they aren't busy, I'll simply go straight to where I know players willing and wanting to help will have that information for me.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/

I am bad at reading intent in text, but I think you're joking, right?

We are all bad at reading intent in text - and yes, the first line was a joke.

The rest of it wasn't - it is exactly what most people will do.

KingDDD

Easiest way to solve this is to have less quests but make them more immersive/interesting. Saving 10 mines.from a goblin invasion is significantly more boring than saving only 1.

Raven016

NiKr wrote: »

Vissox wrote: »

you remembered what Valheim even is, so it was obviously a memorable experience.

It's not that old of a game to completely forget about it even if you didn't really like it.

He was thinking to the real Valheim

He doesn't know about the game.

Veeshan

MMO's need less convince features in general. Older gamers had some magic to them and i think that comes down to the design philosphy of making a world that players exsist in rather than a game convenient for players.
this magic slowly died when the design philosophy shifted to making MMO easier for players centering around them than making a world where players just exsisted in

Ace1234

Navigation skill is as valid a skill as any other, I think it should have its place, and be treated and balanced similar to any other type of skill-check in the game. I don't believe guides are really the root problem, and if you think they are then go read a fighting game guide thats been updated for years and see how good you would do in a tournament. The design just needs to make guides less relevant, by having an actual fail state where players can get lost, by keeping things complex, dynamic, unpredictable, and require actual skill and strategy to navigate around the world of which cant necessarily be read about in a guide and needs to be experienced and learned. This way, at least the guides have room for imperfection and room for improvement and optimization, and take actual time to flesh out, allowing for more skilled players to not only enjoy the experience and catch up to those trying to "cheat", but to also thrive by having valuable input for that content.

Apparently Intrepid agrees, since one of their goals is for players to get "lost" while navigating around the world.

Mag7spy

Veeshan wrote: »

MMO's need less convince features in general. Older gamers had some magic to them and i think that comes down to the design philosphy of making a world that players exsist in rather than a game convenient for players.
this magic slowly died when the design philosophy shifted to making MMO easier for players centering around them than making a world where players just exsisted in

Any magic you think there would be was simply the fact you were playing a genre in its infant state and it was all new and special to you.

You are reading more deep into it with design than that is really there. We could go through any older game and break down the elements on how basic things are. At the time they were great and pushed things but that was a decade + ago. You all are deep in nostalgia and refuse to admit it. If this wasn't the case games that copied WoW would have been successful instead of dying.

What you think is good about questing was not good by todays standards. Mmorpgs have never had good questing as well imo, when you compare to it any other single play game.

Vissox

Mag7spy wrote: »

Any magic you think there would be was simply the fact you were playing a genre in its infant state and it was all new and special to you.

Yeah, that's why people are playing modern MMOs and not rebooting old eras.

Oh wait...

Mag7spy

Vissox wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

Any magic you think there would be was simply the fact you were playing a genre in its infant state and it was all new and special to you.

Yeah, that's why people are playing modern MMOs and not rebooting old eras.

Oh wait...

Let me turn on Alien vrs predatures from pc. Guess I'm rebooting a old era, o wait its still dying and not growing...

You really want to watch your genre die don't you, that you are convincing yourself the same few people playing a old game is going to suddenly grow the genre dying without getting new blood year by year.

Moment something new that is good comes out kills any notion of you thinking people actually want to play the same old mmo. Things you think are good with questing is the issue that leads to a game not being good.

But feel free to humor me, what is the most memorable quest in WoW from launch content.

Enigmatic Sage

@Veeshan I generally agree.
Over simplifying and saturating the game full of QoL changes just causes the player base to just bypass the game design and it snowballs over time quite detrimentally. This just results in leap frogging because the QoL becomes the norm, then that becomes an inconvenience, then they adjust it again and then it just hits a point of pathetic design and awful demographic to cater to. Constantly bypassing those inconveniences directly relates to bad player habits and needs for dopamine hits. It's literally at the core of mainstream games and mobile gaming design.

This is why I take a lot of peoples idea's as a grain of salt. Is their idea better for the game or is it just because they want an inconvenience to cater to their needs/wants for an easier game. If the dev's don't know where that line should be drawn then this game is in trouble lol.

akabear

No issue with limited or now waypoints.. but the landscapes and cities must have clear semiotics and landmarking / landmarks to ensure the there is a means to navigate the changing cities and the landscape seasonal changes.

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