Imposed PvP and ganking

Hi dear community,

I have the question about known so far game mechanics related to PvP.

People are different, and making their fun on different stuff. Killing another players is some kind of fun for them. What can stop an organised group of top PvP players from ganking everything around and thus ruining game experience for everybody around? They are good in PvP, they are seasoned and organised - so no single/casual player or ad-hoc groups can do anything to them. For sure GMs won't babysitting casual players, so there must be some kind of game mechanic which stop group asocial behaviour.

Needless to say that casual players are the base for every MMO game - they are many, they pay subscription to devs and they make the game live.

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Enigmatic Sage

NoxVost wrote: »

Hi dear community,

I have the question about known so far game mechanics related to PvP.

People are different, and making their fun on different stuff. Killing another players is some kind of fun for them. What can stop an organised group of top PvP players from ganking everything around and thus ruining game experience for everybody around? They are good in PvP, they are seasoned and organised - so no single/casual player or ad-hoc groups can do anything to them. For sure GMs won't babysitting casual players, so there must be some kind of game mechanic which stop group asocial behaviour.

Needless to say that casual players are the base for every MMO game - they are many, they pay subscription to devs and they make the game live.

The flagging system
you can flag as non-combatant but it wont protect you or make you immune to pvp. It just gives the attacker corruption which puts a target on them and can be looted by any player currently. Flagging non-combatant does make immune to CC though.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging

Songcaller

The map is 1200km2 or more with 10,000 players online at one time in Ashes. Classic WoW is like 10 times smaller or less with 5,000 players online at one time. You don't meet players much in Classic WoW and you'll meet players even less in Ashes. Except for popular areas.

NoxVost

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

The flagging system

Sure I know about flagging system, and it won't work as described in Wiki.

First of all, if I do not react on assault (== not flagging myself) I have larger chance to drop items from inventory

Second, and most important - the level of "redness" is some kind of honor level for such PvPers - the more red they are, the better.

Enigmatic Sage

NoxVost wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

The flagging system

Sure I know about flagging system, and it won't work as described in Wiki.

First of all, if I do not react on assault (== not flagging myself) I have larger chance to drop items from inventory

Second, and most important - the level of "redness" is some kind of honor level for such PvPers - the more red they are, the better.

There's been lots of these threads on the forums.

I'm positive people will complain regardless if they're flagged or not situationally.

Design goal is to encourage "safety" in numbers and co-operation.

Liniker

would you call games like albion or EVE online dead or ruined? maybe for you, if you dont like forced PVP, but thats a "you" problem, its not a problem for the millions that play those games, if we start making up bullshit scenarios in our heads about "top pvp players" getting together and getting organized to "ruin the game" ganking everyone around them well, sure, but lets get back to earth and look at other games with open world pvp for a moment,

you can even use hardcore gank fest games like Mortal Online as an example, thats not a thing, sure, theres small groups of gankers and random PKers, but most large guilds are "blue" and dont care about ganking random players, they have objectives, and there is space for different players, so this is a non-issue and a concern not based on reality,

reality is: there has never been a PvP MMORPG that was ruined because of ganking or open-world pvp, its always the p2w, the design decisions and other issues that end up ruining these games, so don't worry, if Ashes delivers and its a good game, it will succeed, but ofc, not everyone is the target audience, but thats a different story

Songcaller

There was a lot of bots and griefers in L2. The company that made L2 never replicated the corruption system in later games and Ashes won't just replicate the system, the system will be harsher. Thankfully, bots shouldn't be enabled in ashes too much (though multi-boxing is allowed) and the open sea doesn't have corruption. Also, sanctified PvP doesn't have corruption. One would hope most PvP players use the sanctified PvP events and the open sea to do the kills rather than gank people who don't fight back.

Hinotori

The flagging system and corruption will take care of everything. Because no-one is going to enjoy it.

Pvp players will hate the grind back to being "viable"
And pve players will hate it because pvp players will still kill you.

Both sides have to deal with it.

Depraved

NoxVost wrote: »

Hi dear community,

I have the question about known so far game mechanics related to PvP.

People are different, and making their fun on different stuff. Killing another players is some kind of fun for them. What can stop an organised group of top PvP players from ganking everything around and thus ruining game experience for everybody around? They are good in PvP, they are seasoned and organised - so no single/casual player or ad-hoc groups can do anything to them. For sure GMs won't babysitting casual players, so there must be some kind of game mechanic which stop group asocial behaviour.

Needless to say that casual players are the base for every MMO game - they are many, they pay subscription to devs and they make the game live.

Hi dear community,

I have the question about known so far game mechanics related to PvE.

People are different, and making their fun on different stuff. Killing mobs is some kind of fun for them. What can stop an organised group of top PvE players from killing everything around and thus ruining game experience for everybody around? They are good in PvE, they are seasoned and organised - so no single/casual player or ad-hoc groups can do anything to them. For sure GMs won't babysitting casual players, so there must be some kind of game mechanic which stop group asocial behaviour.

Needless to say that casual players are the base for every MMO game - they are many, they pay subscription to devs and they make the game live.

lets also stop imposed PVE

Depraved

Neurath wrote: »

There was a lot of bots and griefers in L2. The company that made L2 never replicated the corruption system in later games and Ashes won't just replicate the system, the system will be harsher. Thankfully, bots shouldn't be enabled in ashes too much (though multi-boxing is allowed) and the open sea doesn't have corruption. Also, sanctified PvP doesn't have corruption. One would hope most PvP players use the sanctified PvP events and the open sea to do the kills rather than gank people who don't fight back.

lol ncsoft removed the corruption penalties in l2 essence. you can basically kill anyone with no consequences xDDD

Songcaller

Depraved wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

There was a lot of bots and griefers in L2. The company that made L2 never replicated the corruption system in later games and Ashes won't just replicate the system, the system will be harsher. Thankfully, bots shouldn't be enabled in ashes too much (though multi-boxing is allowed) and the open sea doesn't have corruption. Also, sanctified PvP doesn't have corruption. One would hope most PvP players use the sanctified PvP events and the open sea to do the kills rather than gank people who don't fight back.

lol ncsoft removed the corruption penalties in l2 essence. you can basically kill anyone with no consequences xDDD

Yes. Too bad that corruption system wasn't replicated

NoxVost

Liniker wrote: »

would you call games like albion or EVE online dead or ruined?
......
but most large guilds are "blue" and dont care about ganking random players,

Never played Albion, however have 6 years of EVE behind my shoulders. All the time the population of secure Hi-Secs is muuuch bigger than low/null-secs. This means that player have fun most the time in safe harbour, going unsafe only from time to time

NoxVost

Depraved wrote: »

lets also stop imposed PVE

Marked your name

Will play on another server. LOL

Solvryn

NoxVost wrote: »

Hi dear community,

I have the question about known so far game mechanics related to PvP.

People are different, and making their fun on different stuff. Killing another players is some kind of fun for them. What can stop an organised group of top PvP players from ganking everything around and thus ruining game experience for everybody around? They are good in PvP, they are seasoned and organised - so no single/casual player or ad-hoc groups can do anything to them. For sure GMs won't babysitting casual players, so there must be some kind of game mechanic which stop group asocial behaviour.

Needless to say that casual players are the base for every MMO game - they are many, they pay subscription to devs and they make the game live.

Acceptance. Accept the fact that someone’s going to kill you and you either learn to just die, fight back, or quit the game.

Enigmatic Sage

Solvryn wrote: »

NoxVost wrote: »

Hi dear community,

I have the question about known so far game mechanics related to PvP.

People are different, and making their fun on different stuff. Killing another players is some kind of fun for them. What can stop an organised group of top PvP players from ganking everything around and thus ruining game experience for everybody around? They are good in PvP, they are seasoned and organised - so no single/casual player or ad-hoc groups can do anything to them. For sure GMs won't babysitting casual players, so there must be some kind of game mechanic which stop group asocial behaviour.

Needless to say that casual players are the base for every MMO game - they are many, they pay subscription to devs and they make the game live.

Acceptance. Accept the fact that someone’s going to kill you and you either learn to just die, fight back, or quit the game.

you forgot option 4....

mass complain at launch or during alpha 2 with like minded people and use the excuse you're a patron until you get what you want lol

Obviously a joke but in reality it's what happens.

Once you implement something, you cant go backwards with it, usually forwards. The drama on the forums of similar discussions and results prove this is definitely plausible.

Just read the threads about flagging, freehold looting, player looting, AC vs TT, floaty combat. It's all there haha

Neurath wrote: »

There was a lot of bots and griefers in L2. The company that made L2 never replicated the corruption system in later games and Ashes won't just replicate the system, the system will be harsher. Thankfully, bots shouldn't be enabled in ashes too much (though multi-boxing is allowed) and the open sea doesn't have corruption. Also, sanctified PvP doesn't have corruption. One would hope most PvP players use the sanctified PvP events and the open sea to do the kills rather than gank people who don't fight back.

I still cant believe the studio made this huge promise about anti-botting and what not then go around and say they'll allow multi boxing... blew my mind when they announced it. I guess multi-boxing guarantees more active subscriptions.

Kilion

NoxVost wrote: »

What can stop an organised group of top PvP players from ganking everything around and thus ruining game experience for everybody around?

Being very specific here: Nothing. It is technically possible to do and it is therefore intended to happen in the game. HOWEVER: While it is an intentional part of the game Intrepid agree that this falls into the category of what I will now call "non-constructive gameplay". Therefore overpowering non-consenting players in PvP accumulates corruption which decreases the killers fighting potential, decreases access to NPC services, increases the death penalty for the player who accumulated corruption, increases killing rewards for those who kill a corrupted player and force the corrupted to "work off" the corruption if they don't wish to die. This system will most likely not be fully balanced until the Beta phase, but I think it is most reasonable to assume that the corruption system will ultimately become controlled by the dynamic event system as everything else in the game - meaning the more PKs of unflagged players occur on a server, the more corruption killers will accumulate on that server.

NoxVost wrote: »

Needless to say that casual players are the base for every MMO game - they are many, they pay subscription to devs and they make the game live.

That might be true but as Dark Souls has prominently shown - well made games can inspire casuals to change their attitude on a game. As things stand - and I hope Intrepid will hold firm on that - Ashes of Creation will be a tough cookie of a game where people will face lots of different adversities be it in forms of other players or difficult to navigate environments. If Intrepid manages to reward the efforts of the players sufficiently, I am very optimistic that players will accept the greater risks of playing this game. And those who don't can go back to podcasts on one screen and farming WoW dungeons on the other.

Fantmx

As many have said, corruption. However, I will point out we have not seen or tested this yet.

What has been made extremely clear is this is a PvX game, and they are not targeting everyone. "This game may not be for you."

Sweatycup

It really depends on the community. While pvp voices are generally louder or rather noisier this is still a misrepresentation of the total populace just like you may find in some events in real life. There is nothing stopping them i would say 90-95% of the time or at least attempting to in other scenarios. It is the community at large that holds responsibility. The actual balance and mechanics might change via testing but for now the corruption and promotion of pvp in some scenarios is what this game revolves around. It is what happens after a attack that defines the repricussion to said pvper(s). That being corruption, guards in a city enforcing the law, bounties, and or the general player population. A group of great pvpers does not matter in open warfare as far as i know there are no limits to how many pvpers/players can engage each other. A group of 50 of the best will never defeat 200+ players.

You can play this game but you will be ganked and or targeted. Its not a pve game. Best to see how it pans out it might not be as bad as you think. It might be the wost experience youve ever had. Its up to the community really beyond simple mechanics.

Veeshan

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

NoxVost wrote: »

Hi dear community,

I have the question about known so far game mechanics related to PvP.

People are different, and making their fun on different stuff. Killing another players is some kind of fun for them. What can stop an organised group of top PvP players from ganking everything around and thus ruining game experience for everybody around? They are good in PvP, they are seasoned and organised - so no single/casual player or ad-hoc groups can do anything to them. For sure GMs won't babysitting casual players, so there must be some kind of game mechanic which stop group asocial behaviour.

Needless to say that casual players are the base for every MMO game - they are many, they pay subscription to devs and they make the game live.

Acceptance. Accept the fact that someone’s going to kill you and you either learn to just die, fight back, or quit the game.

you forgot option 4....

mass complain at launch or during alpha 2 with like minded people and use the excuse you're a patron until you get what you want lol

Obviously a joke but in reality it's what happens.

Once you implement something, you cant go backwards with it, usually forwards. The drama on the forums of similar discussions and results prove this is definitely plausible.

Just read the threads about flagging, freehold looting, player looting, AC vs TT, floaty combat. It's all there haha

Sounds like what happened with new world

Enigmatic Sage

Veeshan wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

NoxVost wrote: »

Hi dear community,

I have the question about known so far game mechanics related to PvP.

People are different, and making their fun on different stuff. Killing another players is some kind of fun for them. What can stop an organised group of top PvP players from ganking everything around and thus ruining game experience for everybody around? They are good in PvP, they are seasoned and organised - so no single/casual player or ad-hoc groups can do anything to them. For sure GMs won't babysitting casual players, so there must be some kind of game mechanic which stop group asocial behaviour.

Needless to say that casual players are the base for every MMO game - they are many, they pay subscription to devs and they make the game live.

Acceptance. Accept the fact that someone’s going to kill you and you either learn to just die, fight back, or quit the game.

you forgot option 4....

mass complain at launch or during alpha 2 with like minded people and use the excuse you're a patron until you get what you want lol

Obviously a joke but in reality it's what happens.

Once you implement something, you cant go backwards with it, usually forwards. The drama on the forums of similar discussions and results prove this is definitely plausible.

Just read the threads about flagging, freehold looting, player looting, AC vs TT, floaty combat. It's all there haha

Sounds like what happened with new world

and many others lol

Dygz

NoxVost wrote: »

If I do not react on assault (== not flagging myself) I have larger chance to drop items from inventory

You have the normal chance to drop items upon death. Same chance as dying from a mob.
If you fight back, you have half the normal chance to drop items.

NoxVost wrote: »

Second, and most important - the level of "redness" is some kind of honor level for such PvPers - the more red they are, the better.

The more red they are, the more combat penalties they have, so...
So Red is not an indication of "better". The level of Red indicates the person has been killing players who refuse to fight back. WHich has nothing to do with being better at PvP or better at combat. It just means the player enjoys killing players who refuse to fight back.
But, also... that person will have combat penalties that make them increasingly worse at combat.
They will have other penalties, like the inability to trade, buy/sell and fast travel.

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