Imposed PvP and ganking

Solvryn wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Forced PvP doesn't exist on a PvP server. You sign up for the PvP when you make a toon.

We know that

I'm just amazed that the ideation has been labelled 'toxic' by others elsewhere. Some people are too soft.

Solvryn

Neurath wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Forced PvP doesn't exist on a PvP server. You sign up for the PvP when you make a toon.

We know that

I'm just amazed that the ideation has been labelled 'toxic' by others elsewhere. Some people are too soft.

Doesn’t fit the script in their head. Any deviation from it is a blaspheme.

GrappLr

NoxVost wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

The flagging system

Sure I know about flagging system, and it won't work as described in Wiki.

First of all, if I do not react on assault (== not flagging myself) I have larger chance to drop items from inventory

Second, and most important - the level of "redness" is some kind of honor level for such PvPers - the more red they are, the better.

No offense, but you obviously don't. If you knew about the system, you would know that first of all, the more red, the worse your combat stats get, to the point where you are a level 1 in combat. Secondly, getting enough corruption means you drop main gear. Third of all, there's the bounty hunter class that can see where red people are on the world, so they can't "hide".

Neurath wrote: »

Define forced pvp.

Killing Non-Combatants.

Dygz wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Define forced pvp.

Killing Non-Combatants.

You become a combatant once combat ensues. You're not a civilian in the game. You sign up when you make a toon. PvX Gameplay - PvP and PvE Combined. You're not helpless and weaponless. You are on a capable toon. Same applies in PvE when a mob attacks you - You become a combatant.

Sathrago wrote: »

I just gotta ask these anti-pvp people something.

I am not anti-PvP. I enjoy PvP sometimes.
But, I want other players to be able to decide that I must engage in PvP.
Just as I don't want other players to be able to decide that I must Gather flowers.
Just as other players should not be able to run trains to aggro mobs on me.

Sathrago wrote: »

Why do you feel like you are forced to pvp? You bought the game, agreed to the ToS, and started playing. Its not like you get the game and dont understand what the worlds going to have in it when its this open with it's features. When you start to play one of these games, you gave consent to pvp because thats how the game works. Regardless of how terrible a death you get, you are signing up for this when you buy the game.

I play RPGs for player co-op; not for player competition. Especially because in the 40+ years I've played D&D, I've only encountered PvP twice.
I play MMORPGs to be able to play along (cooperatively) with a bunch of other players at any moment I have time and I'm in the mood to play. Rather than needing to coordinate time with a handful of adults who likely have conflicting schedules.
Sometimes, I like to do town defense PvP or Capture The Flag for 30 minutes or so. And then I want to go back to hours of gameplay with no PvP. I need to be able to choose that based on my mood, rather than the whims of other players.
I traditionally start MMORPGs on PvP-Optional servers and then move to PvP-Only servers.
I prefer the instanced PvP in Neverwinter Online.
The Ashes solution is to punish non-consensual, forced PvP with Corruption. Which appears to be a reasonable compromise for killing players who are not in the mood for PvP combat.

If I don't like the PvP rules of a game. I won't play that game.
When you choose to play Ashes, you choose to be punished with Corruption as the consequence for the forced PvP of killing Non-Combatants.
When you start to play this game, you agree to the ToS and the rules that govern being punished with Corruption for killing Non-Combatants.
"Terrible death" is irrelevant. The penalties from dying in PvP as Non-Combatant are the same as the penalties from dying from a mob, so I dunno what "terrible death" is even supposed to mean. The issue is whether or not I'm in the mood to engage in PvP combat rather than combat from with mobs. If I'm not in the mood for PvP combat, I will punish my assailants with Corruption.
And... if Corruption is not a satisfactory deterrent on the frequency of forced PvP - I won't play the game. Which is likely true for most players who don't love PvP combat.
As far as I can tell - we are in agreement with regard to playing the game or not playing the game.
When you choose to play the game, you agree to the rules.
In Ashes, the rules are that forced PvP/non-consensual PvP (killing Non-Combatants) is punished with Corruption - except on the Open Seas.

Sathrago wrote: »

And here in ashes you even have the luxury of being completely immune to cc when you are not fighting back, the greatest non-pvp friendly mechanic of any game with a similar flagging system.

Why would I care about being immune to cc if I'm not fighting back and punishing my assailant with Corruption?

it's all part of the handicap by flagging non-combatant.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Definition:Forced_attack
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging

Arya_Yeshe

Ganking won't be a thing in AoC, there's barely any loot and there are debuffs on the character

The PvE griefing will be very there at all times, specially flower pickers, miners and lumberjacks stealing all the lumber... and if you touch them then hell will be unleashed on you... you will be judged as a bad person and all kinds of sociopaths will bring about their tendencies on you, which is comical since you were just trying to save the local's fauna and flora

Gatheres should have corruption too for over harvestng, they are pretty much gutting Verra's life force!!! :'(

Raven016

Neurath wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

If the devs didn't want forced pvp the devs would've added a pvp toggle. Not corruption. Forced pvp is a viable tactic to stop other players from griefing. Corruption is there to stop pvp players from griefing. PvP players fighting for an area of farming or resource area is perfectly valid.

Who said the devs did not want forced PVP?
In Ashes, forced PvP is punished by Corruption. If the devs wanted to prevent forced PvP - they probably would have implemented a toggle.
Corruption is not designed to prevent forced PvP. Rather, Corruption is designed to deter forced PvP via significant penalties. Except on the Open Seas. Corruption does not prevent PvP players from griefing.
Prevent is not the exact same thing as deter.

Define forced pvp.

It's like when you are in a corner, surrounded, nowhere to run and they tell you to take off your cosmetics or PvP.
You have no choice.

Solvryn

Raven016 wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

If the devs didn't want forced pvp the devs would've added a pvp toggle. Not corruption. Forced pvp is a viable tactic to stop other players from griefing. Corruption is there to stop pvp players from griefing. PvP players fighting for an area of farming or resource area is perfectly valid.

Who said the devs did not want forced PVP?
In Ashes, forced PvP is punished by Corruption. If the devs wanted to prevent forced PvP - they probably would have implemented a toggle.
Corruption is not designed to prevent forced PvP. Rather, Corruption is designed to deter forced PvP via significant penalties. Except on the Open Seas. Corruption does not prevent PvP players from griefing.
Prevent is not the exact same thing as deter.

Define forced pvp.

It's like when you are in a corner, surrounded, nowhere to run and they tell you to take off your cosmetics or PvP.
You have no choice.

Uhuh. In the corner in a forest.

Raven016 wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

Neurath wrote: »

If the devs didn't want forced pvp the devs would've added a pvp toggle. Not corruption. Forced pvp is a viable tactic to stop other players from griefing. Corruption is there to stop pvp players from griefing. PvP players fighting for an area of farming or resource area is perfectly valid.

Who said the devs did not want forced PVP?
In Ashes, forced PvP is punished by Corruption. If the devs wanted to prevent forced PvP - they probably would have implemented a toggle.
Corruption is not designed to prevent forced PvP. Rather, Corruption is designed to deter forced PvP via significant penalties. Except on the Open Seas. Corruption does not prevent PvP players from griefing.
Prevent is not the exact same thing as deter.

Define forced pvp.

It's like when you are in a corner, surrounded, nowhere to run and they tell you to take off your cosmetics or PvP.
You have no choice.

Ashes isn't Rust.

gang + killing = ganking...

hmmm sounds like ganking will definitely exist.

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

it's all part of the handicap by flagging non-combatant.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Definition:Forced_attack
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging

We are flagged Non-Combatant by default.
There is no handicap as a Non-Combatant.
It’s just normal death penalties upon death. Same as dying from a mob.
CC is irrelevant when a Non-Combantant is opting to punish their assailant with Corruption.

Dygz wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

it's all part of the handicap by flagging non-combatant.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Definition:Forced_attack
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging

We are flagged Non-Combatant by default.
There is no handicap as a Non-Combatant.
It’s just normal death penalties upon death. Same as dying from a mob.
CC is irrelevant when a Non-Combantant is opting to punish their assailant with Corruption.

There technically is a handicap with the forced attack, immune to cc and aoe.

Combatants have half the rate for penalties of non-combatans upon death.

It's all on the wiki man

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Death_penalties

There's pro's and con's to the flagging status.
Non-combatant (green players) suffer normal death penalties, which include:[1]
Experience debt (negative experience).[2] Experience debt scales to approximately 2 or 3 percent of the total XP for a max level player. These numbers are subject to change based on testing.[3]
Skill and stat dampening.[1]
Lower health and mana.[1]
Lower gear proficiency.[1]
Reduction in loot drop rates from mobs.[4]
Durability loss.[5][6][1]
When players die and they take durability loss, our durability loss isn't like other games where it's a gold sink so to speak. It's a combination of both a gold sink and a material sink. So in a sense, even if you only have completed items, when you take that durability loss you are losing out on materials. It's just a debt to the materials that you are losing instead of the active loss of that material in your inventory. So now you are accruing a material debt if you want to repair and increase again the performance of those particular items that take that durability loss.[5] – Steven Sharif
Dropping a percentage of carried gatherables and materials that are used in the generation of something else.[7][8][1]
Items made for final consumption are not dropped, such as consumable items created by the Cooking and Alchemy professions.[7]
A percentage of the glint a player is carrying are also dropped.[9]

pair that with griefing from combatants with the current kill shot for corruption method... Going to be funny. Pro's and con's for non-combatant flagging

Noaani

@dygz @Solvryn

You guys are both right, and both wrong, and so obviously I'm going to take a position all by myself on a topic I really don't give a shit about, because why not...

There is forced PvP in a PvP game.

If me and my friends are running off to destroy a caravan or something, and you and your friends decide to engage us in a way where we have to fight, that is forced PvP. You and your friends are forcing me and my friends in to PvP we were not wanting.

However, it is also true that there is no scope for opting out of that PvP in a game like Ashes. Thus, if you logged in to the game, the above PvP is forced, but you are not able to claim it is anything other than consensual - you consented to it being a possibility when you logged in.

Thus, there is forced PvP, but it is still PvP you signed up for.

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

There technically is a handicap with the forced attack, immune to cc and aoe.

Combatants have half the rate for penalties of non-combatans upon death.

It's all on the wiki man

It's not a handicap... it's just normal.
Flagging as Combatant has the benefit of half normal death penalties.
And CC remains irrelevant for Non-Combatants opting to punish their assailants with Corruption.
We agree that's all in the wiki.

Non-consensual PvP is punished by Corruption.
Consensual PvP is when all participants are flagged Purple (or Red).

Dygz wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

There technically is a handicap with the forced attack, immune to cc and aoe.

Combatants have half the rate for penalties of non-combatans upon death.

It's all on the wiki man

It's not a handicap... it's just normal.
Flagging as Combatant has the benefit of half normal death penalties.
And CC remains irrelevant for Non-Combatants opting to punish their assailants with Corruption.
We agree that's all in the wiki.

Non-consensual PvP is punished by Corruption.
Consensual PvP is when all participants are flagged Purple (or Red).

Yes, you get a "benefit" from flagging as a combatant in a pvx game. Non-combatant flagging provides a handicap. One could even say flagging as combatant is the normal way to flag and you get penalised for flagging as non-combatant. Literally a handicap for combat mechanics via cc and aoe with trade offs in death penalties, loot drop rates, losses upon death etc.

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

Yes, you get a "benefit" from flagging as a combatant in a pvx game. Non-combatant flagging provides a handicap. One could even say flagging as combatant is the normal way to flag and you get penalised for flagging as non-combatant. Literally a handicap for combat mechanics via cc and aoe with trade offs in death penalties, loot drop rates, losses upon death etc.

There are plenty PvX MMORPGs that do not provide a benefit for flagging PvP.
In Ashes, you don't flag Non-Combatant. Everyone is a Non-Combatant is default. And there is no handicap and no penalty for remaining Non-Combatant.
You can say anything you want, even when you are incorrect.
Combat mechanics for CC and AOE are irrelevant when you are not fighting back. And, there is no trade-off in penalties because Non-Combatants have normal death penalties. Remaining Non-Combatant does not change the death penalties for dying as a Non-Combatant. Dying while Green has the same death penalties for dying from a player as dying from a mob.