Warning from my previous experiences facing healers balanced around PvE.

simply put; they end up mandatory. a grp with a healer cannot lose in pvp againt a grp with out one.
i'm active on new world and the current meta is anti heal proc on everything.
it was true in dark age of camelot 20 years ago and it's still an issue today.

love you, cant wait for the alpha.

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Ludullu

PvE should require proper tanking, so that healers don't just heal for full hp on each heal, which will in turn let the pvp balance itself

Tanking in pvp is way harder than in pve, which balances out the tank's ability to tank huge hits.

Effah

trust me none if play's tank and spank games anymore. have you seen any boss fight in modern games? its just huge cleaves and coordinated movements. every body is taking potential hits.
even if that was true then you got a silly imortal tank that can yolo threw any pvp fight util he get targeted last.

yall keep talking strategy but this aint it.

Raven016

P0GG0 wrote: »

trust me none if play's tank and spank games anymore. have you seen any boss fight in modern games? its just huge cleaves and coordinated movements. every body is taking potential hits.
even if that was true then you got a silly imortal tank that can yolo threw any pvp fight util he get targeted last.

yall keep talking strategy but this aint it.

How did we ended up with this modern dance?
Maybe the music should stop.

Ludullu

P0GG0 wrote: »

yall keep talking strategy but this aint it.

Strategy is in that tank's ability to prevent him being the last member of his party. That's the whole point of tanking - protecting others from dmg. If you're the last man standing - you've failed as a tank.

PvP mmos are also not liked these days. Are you suggesting we remove that from AoC as well?

Effah

i got a feeling none in this thread is actually a pvp fan. yall talk while never saying anything.

Ludullu

P0GG0 wrote: »

i got a feeling none in this thread is actually a pvp fan. yall talk while never saying anything.

Ahh, you're one of those people. Got it.

Effah

no wonder devs never read forums. yall spamming for attention.

McShave

I think it makes sense that a party with a healer would beat a party without a healer, assuming the skill is equal. A long time ago, Intrepid said that a proper party would be one of each primary archetype because of the utility they bring to the party. Of course a healer is more important for pvp, as a tank would be important for pve content. However other archetypes will have utility that will also be important (we don't know what, there is still a lot of testing and feedback to give).

Caww

AoC wants trinity game play so healing is always going to be a consideration for group makeups.

from the wiki : We have our eight base archetypes; and the trinity is a pretty strong influence with regards to the eight base classes.

more here: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Roles

Effah

all classes should be equally broken in their own way, its not that hard to make any combination of classes viable. its against the player's enjoyment to be forced into meta right away. its promotes lazy repetitive scenarios. no room for weird sett ups that require smarter choices rather than town hall preperation. its ok if fights look messy, the fun is figuring things out.

Depraved

P0GG0 wrote: »

trust me none if play's tank and spank games anymore. have you seen any boss fight in modern games? its just huge cleaves and coordinated movements. every body is taking potential hits.
even if that was true then you got a silly imortal tank that can yolo threw any pvp fight util he get targeted last.

yall keep talking strategy but this aint it.

oh and just bringing more dd to the pvp is super strategic? hey lets all click this person and press "1" at the same time and he dies. thats really more strategic than bringing a healer? xDDDD

Effah

hahehehehehe i'm edgy. shut up let the grown up talk.

McShave

P0GG0 wrote: »

all classes should be equally broken in their own way, its not that hard to make any combination of classes viable. its against the player's enjoyment to be forced into meta right away. its promotes lazy repetitive scenarios. no room for weird sett ups that require smarter choices rather than town hall preperation. its ok if fights look messy, the fun is figuring things out.

We know that players will work together to get combos off that may seem broken in their own way. Combos such as bleed or daze from one player into effects that increase or multiply based on bleed or daze from another player may look really good. Again, we have to test and provide feedback so that it feels right. And hopefully there will be many different ways that players can combo off each other, we will have to wait and see.

Mag7spy

P0GG0 wrote: »

simply put; they end up mandatory. a grp with a healer cannot lose in pvp againt a grp with out one.
i'm active on new world and the current meta is anti heal proc on everything.
it was true in dark age of camelot 20 years ago and it's still an issue today.

love you, cant wait for the alpha.

NW is a terrible example since healing in that game was broken and thrown in without any actual design thought to the point you couldn't kill someone 1v5.

To help with the issue there needs to be ways to use skills and build your character co counter the healing. IE healing reduction, cc and interrupts. So the scales becomes a bit more balanced and isn't healer means a automatic win.

LuKe_NuKeS_Em

Group role is a part of positioning and strategy that goes way back. If everyone can do everything, there is less need to work together. You want a co-operative multiplayer game to incentivize teamwork. You want people to want to play with you and you want to bring a unique aspect to the greater whole and be recognized when you do well. If everyone is a swiss army knife of a character, then no one is special, and you don't really need anyone else for a specific reason. Having group tactics be important requires constraints on each individual to have faults in exchange for power in a specific scenario. This is what classes classically provide inherently from their class fantasy. Heavier armor, stronger magic, range and evasion all have their use cases. 5e Dungeon's and dragons suffers from multiclassing being able to cover all of your characters weak spots and can leave party members feeling overshadowed. With the Class/Subclass being able to move your place in the trinity and blur the lines, along with everyone being able to use every weapon and armor, party members are likely stepping on each other's toes a bit in ashes, but your primary does have unique things (like the rogue finding secret doors) that you probably won't be able to multiclass into. If you think healing is OP then go secondary cleric and heal yourself and (potentially) your allies while doing your main role.

Noaani

P0GG0 wrote: »

simply put; they end up mandatory. a grp with a healer cannot lose in pvp againt a grp with out one.
i'm active on new world and the current meta is anti heal proc on everything.
it was true in dark age of camelot 20 years ago and it's still an issue today.

love you, cant wait for the alpha.

You are right that the current design would make healers essentially mandatory for PvP from 3v3 up.

You are wrong, however, in assuming this is an issue.

Solvryn

Person who’s never employed strategy a day in their life, “Just trust me bro”.

Facepalms in military veteran.

First step: Stop confusing strategy with tactics and vice versa.

Veeshan

Healers tend to be overtuned in pvp in most games cause they focus on PvE mobs do twice or more dmg than players do a hit your healer then need to heal twice as much to compensate for the pve side which intern on the pvp side healers become over tuned.
Take new world and WoW for example where healer often take 3+ players to out dmg there heal so they basicly become tanks. Only way to kill them tend to be CC lock them so they cant heal and if they get one spell off they full heal.

Liniker

tf? healers and tanks are supposed to be mandatory for group content its a trinity based MMO

Mag7spy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ4TC5BqRZ0

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