Warning from my previous experiences facing healers balanced around PvE.

Solvryn wrote: »

Person who’s never employed strategy a day in their life, “Just trust me bro”.

Facepalms in military veteran.

First step: Stop confusing strategy with tactics and vice versa.

whats the difference OwO

Depraved wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

Person who’s never employed strategy a day in their life, “Just trust me bro”.

Facepalms in military veteran.

First step: Stop confusing strategy with tactics and vice versa.

whats the difference OwO

A strategy is an over arching plan or policy. Where as a tactic is a specific action taken.

That also doesn’t account for the fact you can have strategies within strategies and tactics within them to accomplish set goal/task.

It also differs from the type of org,

A business strategy and a military strategy are very different.

Enigmatic Sage

@Solvryn

long term vs short terms
goals vs objectives

They usually teach these things in elementary school.

EDIT:

not disagreeing about the strategy vs tactics incase this is misunderstood.

they are plenty of popular game with barely any healing. using the space around you to find opportunities is way more fun than clumping up until you out heal all the burst and then counter push.

try and be creative, mentioning you're last wow clone is not an argument.

Mag7spy

P0GG0 wrote: »

they are plenty of popular game with barely any healing. using the space around you to find opportunities is way more fun than clumping up until you out heal all the burst and then counter push.

try and be creative, mentioning you're last wow clone is not an argument.

I remember one of the last wow clones i played being rift and i could solo DPs and tanks as a healer during leveling phase being 30 levels lower than them xD.

KingDDD

You need a give and take in MMO pvp. burst damage/healing cds, interupts, heal blocks, cleanses, hard ccs, etc need to be accessible to a wide variety of classes in a wide variety of ways. They should be different enough to make some stronger and weaker to avoid homogenization, but not so exclusive that class x is mandatory.

Dryadez

Honestly guild wars 2 did healing right... it was more of a side thing every class could do for themselves except water elementalists which could heal a bit but they weren't game breaking. Usually every class has one heal with a long cd and MAYBE some abilities that restore some of their health.

If having a healer is a make it or break it deal and they can't be killed then the balance was done improperly. I imagine a bard will likely be the bane of healers with debuffs and things of the such.

Dryadez wrote: »

Honestly guild wars 2 did healing right... it was more of a side thing every class could do for themselves except water elementalists which could heal a bit but they weren't game breaking. Usually every class has one heal with a long cd and MAYBE some abilities that restore some of their health.

If having a healer is a make it or break it deal and they can't be killed then the balance was done improperly. I imagine a bard will likely be the bane of healers with debuffs and things of the such.

i think gw did healing wrong. basically fight, then run away, hide, heal then try to fight again until you or the other dude get a lucky crit or something.

its almost like running away, hiding, using a potion and waiting for cd then back in. fights turn into whoever hides the most / has more potions.

P0GG0 wrote: »

they are plenty of popular game with barely any healing. using the space around you to find opportunities is way more fun than clumping up until you out heal all the burst and then counter push.

try and be creative, mentioning you're last wow clone is not an argument.

well its a targetted game with the holy trinity. you arent going to change that, no one will at this point (probably not even steven unless they wanna start all over).

not having healers means you just add more dps. how are u gonna survive when 8 dps just target you and hit f1 then ur either dead or low hp...now all u can do is move back and hide then use potions or for a few mins depending on cd? how is that more fun or a better strategy.

everyone plays archers, whoever clicks and press f1 first wins. this isnt an action combat game where you can dodge other people.

or the alternative could be like ragnarok, where the healer wont even put heal on his bar cuz it does nothing in pvp lol. only thing keeping people alive is spamming potions..like really really spamming (no cd on potions in ro). then healing becomes useless. why destroy a class?

make some friends and get a healer, this isnt a solo game

the game is in alpha now is the time to think the core issues with combat, also wtf is you're obessesion with getting insta killed ? if all you do is press W then you deserve to die. giving players out of combat regen allows you to disengage and find a better opportunity. open world pvp should not feel like an arena or a static pve raid. you keep vomiting information with out even understanding my premiss. heals are fine if they dont have the same healing value in pve raids and pvp? dont you see the problem ?

P0GG0 wrote: »

the game is in alpha now is the time to think the core issues with combat, also wtf is you're obessesion with getting insta killed ? if all you do is press W then you deserve to die. giving players out of combat regen allows you to disengage and find a better opportunity. open world pvp should not feel like an arena or a static pve raid. you keep vomiting information with out even understanding my premiss. heals are fine if they dont have the same healing value in pve raids and pvp? dont you see the problem ?

Hard to think about the core issues with combat when the classes arent even fleshed out yet, it'll be during A2 is when balance passes will be made.

Solvryn wrote: »

Hard to think about the core issues with combat when the classes arent even fleshed out yet, it'll be during A2 is when balance passes will be made.

yes, i was hoping to reach the devs just from the thread title and be done with it. got triggered by the lack of vision people have these days.

Dryadez

Depraved wrote: »

Dryadez wrote: »

Honestly guild wars 2 did healing right... it was more of a side thing every class could do for themselves except water elementalists which could heal a bit but they weren't game breaking. Usually every class has one heal with a long cd and MAYBE some abilities that restore some of their health.

If having a healer is a make it or break it deal and they can't be killed then the balance was done improperly. I imagine a bard will likely be the bane of healers with debuffs and things of the such.

i think gw did healing wrong. basically fight, then run away, hide, heal then try to fight again until you or the other dude get a lucky crit or something.

its almost like running away, hiding, using a potion and waiting for cd then back in. fights turn into whoever hides the most / has more potions.

that was so far from my experience. Only the thief class with their infinite invisibility could really pull that off , and yes that was annoying but its why i have a huge lack of respect for stealthies in any game

P0GG0 wrote: »

Solvryn wrote: »

Hard to think about the core issues with combat when the classes arent even fleshed out yet, it'll be during A2 is when balance passes will be made.

yes, i was hoping to reach the devs just from the thread title and be done with it. got triggered by the lack of vision people have these days.

Gotta wait to see who gets what skill first. There will be anti-healing in the game if that's what you're worried about.

P0GG0 wrote: »

the game is in alpha now is the time to think the core issues with combat, also wtf is you're obessesion with getting insta killed ? if all you do is press W then you deserve to die. giving players out of combat regen allows you to disengage and find a better opportunity. open world pvp should not feel like an arena or a static pve raid. you keep vomiting information with out even understanding my premiss. heals are fine if they dont have the same healing value in pve raids and pvp? dont you see the problem ?

no, you are the one lacking vision and creativity. you are saying "this is a problem, and the only solution is this". there are multiple solutions to one problem, and seeing them is creativity.

you are only thinking how you want the game to be, and basically it sounds like you want a solo mmorpg, where you can do everything on your own in pvp, when the game is based around grouping, therefore, the solution should incentivize grouping...not soloing and playing whatever, even though sometimes it can be a bit annoying waiting for someone to log in or join your party so you can go out and do stuff, but there are ways to fix that withotu having to remove the requirement for a healer or supports for party stuff.

giving players out of combat regen...see this is another point you make that makes it seem that you want a solo mmorpg. ive played those and combat is quite boring actually. every fight turns into abusing los to heal back to full, then trying again until someone runs out of potions, or someone makes a huge mistake. or cc run away heal, then try again. it makes combat uninteresting and not engaging, and it doesnt matter what you do, or your skills, if your mistakes are forgiven by escaping and healing. no one gonna die lol. imagine you attack someone then you realize you have no chance of winning, you run away, heal then turn green again. the other person most likely wont pk you. mistakes forgiven. all risk gone.

and no, i dont mean pressing w (see you look like you come from wow or something lol) but at some point you have to attack, unles you dont. the options are attack and die to the other party targetting you because they just have a bunch of dps, no support, no strategy (which is what you are suggesting but you cant se it, maybe you lack vision or havent played many mmorpg, which is fine), or you know that is gonna happen and then dont attack and just stay behind waiting for an opportunity that will never come (or make people unkillable through gear or potion spamming which is probably worse lol).

a lot of people wanna play support, and they want their classes to be useful in pvp as well, not just pve. why play healer if your heals are pointless in pvp? but thats what you arent seeing and then you say its other people fault for not agreeing with you.

Depraved wrote: »

P0GG0 wrote: »

the game is in alpha now is the time to think the core issues with combat, also wtf is you're obessesion with getting insta killed ? if all you do is press W then you deserve to die. giving players out of combat regen allows you to disengage and find a better opportunity. open world pvp should not feel like an arena or a static pve raid. you keep vomiting information with out even understanding my premiss. heals are fine if they dont have the same healing value in pve raids and pvp? dont you see the problem ?

no, you are the one lacking vision and creativity. you are saying "this is a problem, and the only solution is this". there are multiple solutions to one problem, and seeing them is creativity.

you are only thinking how you want the game to be, and basically it sounds like you want a solo mmorpg, where you can do everything on your own in pvp, when the game is based around grouping, therefore, the solution should incentivize grouping...not soloing and playing whatever, even though sometimes it can be a bit annoying waiting for someone to log in or join your party so you can go out and do stuff, but there are ways to fix that withotu having to remove the requirement for a healer or supports for party stuff.

giving players out of combat regen...see this is another point you make that makes it seem that you want a solo mmorpg. ive played those and combat is quite boring actually. every fight turns into abusing los to heal back to full, then trying again until someone runs out of potions, or someone makes a huge mistake. or cc run away heal, then try again. it makes combat uninteresting and not engaging, and it doesnt matter what you do, or your skills, if your mistakes are forgiven by escaping and healing. no one gonna die lol. imagine you attack someone then you realize you have no chance of winning, you run away, heal then turn green again. the other person most likely wont pk you. mistakes forgiven. all risk gone.

and no, i dont mean pressing w (see you look like you come from wow or something lol) but at some point you have to attack, unles you dont. the options are attack and die to the other party targetting you because they just have a bunch of dps, no support, no strategy (which is what you are suggesting but you cant se it, maybe you lack vision or havent played many mmorpg, which is fine), or you know that is gonna happen and then dont attack and just stay behind waiting for an opportunity that will never come (or make people unkillable through gear or potion spamming which is probably worse lol).

a lot of people wanna play support, and they want their classes to be useful in pvp as well, not just pve. why play healer if your heals are pointless in pvp? but thats what you arent seeing and then you say its other people fault for not agreeing with you.

It’s not even a big deal really. Even if they give classes in combat recoup/rejuv (which is fine), they still won’t be near the combat effectiveness as healing.

And there is going to be anti-healing and healing reduction, there’s really no worries to be had.

It seems to me the OP only thinks there’s only skill in playing a DPS character in PvP, which is just an opinion.

Solvryn wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

P0GG0 wrote: »

the game is in alpha now is the time to think the core issues with combat, also wtf is you're obessesion with getting insta killed ? if all you do is press W then you deserve to die. giving players out of combat regen allows you to disengage and find a better opportunity. open world pvp should not feel like an arena or a static pve raid. you keep vomiting information with out even understanding my premiss. heals are fine if they dont have the same healing value in pve raids and pvp? dont you see the problem ?

no, you are the one lacking vision and creativity. you are saying "this is a problem, and the only solution is this". there are multiple solutions to one problem, and seeing them is creativity.

you are only thinking how you want the game to be, and basically it sounds like you want a solo mmorpg, where you can do everything on your own in pvp, when the game is based around grouping, therefore, the solution should incentivize grouping...not soloing and playing whatever, even though sometimes it can be a bit annoying waiting for someone to log in or join your party so you can go out and do stuff, but there are ways to fix that withotu having to remove the requirement for a healer or supports for party stuff.

giving players out of combat regen...see this is another point you make that makes it seem that you want a solo mmorpg. ive played those and combat is quite boring actually. every fight turns into abusing los to heal back to full, then trying again until someone runs out of potions, or someone makes a huge mistake. or cc run away heal, then try again. it makes combat uninteresting and not engaging, and it doesnt matter what you do, or your skills, if your mistakes are forgiven by escaping and healing. no one gonna die lol. imagine you attack someone then you realize you have no chance of winning, you run away, heal then turn green again. the other person most likely wont pk you. mistakes forgiven. all risk gone.

and no, i dont mean pressing w (see you look like you come from wow or something lol) but at some point you have to attack, unles you dont. the options are attack and die to the other party targetting you because they just have a bunch of dps, no support, no strategy (which is what you are suggesting but you cant se it, maybe you lack vision or havent played many mmorpg, which is fine), or you know that is gonna happen and then dont attack and just stay behind waiting for an opportunity that will never come (or make people unkillable through gear or potion spamming which is probably worse lol).

a lot of people wanna play support, and they want their classes to be useful in pvp as well, not just pve. why play healer if your heals are pointless in pvp? but thats what you arent seeing and then you say its other people fault for not agreeing with you.

It’s not even a big deal really. Even if they give classes in combat recoup/rejuv (which is fine), they still won’t be near the combat effectiveness as healing.

And there is going to be anti-healing and healing reduction, there’s really no worries to be had.

It seems to me the OP only thinks there’s only skill in playing a DPS character in PvP, which is just an opinion.

yes, he tells people they lack vision / creativity, yet he is being one dimensional. thats my issue.

to answer you, it might not be a big deal..depending on the game. for example i liked bdo a lot, even though there isnt a dedicated healer, oh and lost ark as well, even tho the bard can kind of heal...but every1 is pretty much a dps in those games, but in a game with a trinity focus, the solution is different.

i agree that if the healer is too op, that can be an issue (but any class being op can be an issue as well), but the cleric needs to be abe to keep 7 people alive. aoc is being balanced aorund having 1 of each class in the party, so i can see how having 2 clerics could be a problem. but the solution isnt to destroy a class, or let everybody else do everything by themselves (trinity game duh).

there are multiple solutions. the healer could be very mana dependant, so you basically need a bard and a summoner helping with mana. you could prevent the heals from stacking. you can adjust the numbers, etc, etc. the best people to find the solution is intrepid, since they know the game and other classes, we havent even played it yet lol.

i think anti healing/ reduction goes more along with aoc design of group play instead of giving regens outside combat to everybody.

edit: also supports are more difficult to play than dps, and you need more game knowledge about other classes anyways

daveywavey

Depraved wrote: »

make some friends

I get the feeling that's going to be the main problem for the OP.