Proposal for Expanding the Mastery of Professions in Ashes of Creation

Dear Ashes of Creation Community and Developers,

I hope this message finds you well. I'm reaching out to discuss the Artisanship system in our beloved MMO, Ashes of Creation. Currently, as many of you know, players can master only two professions. While this system has its merits, I believe there is a strong case for expanding the number of professions a player can master. Here are some reasons why:

Diverse Playstyles and Personalization: Allowing players to master more professions supports diverse playstyles and personalization. This flexibility can cater to a wider range of players, encouraging them to invest more time and creativity into their characters.

Economic Depth: More mastered professions could lead to a more intricate and dynamic in-game economy. It opens up possibilities for complex trade and business relationships between players, enhancing the game's economic realism and engagement.

Long-term Engagement: Expanding the mastery limit can increase the game's long-term appeal. Players would have more goals to strive for, keeping them engaged with the game over a longer period.

Community Collaboration: With more mastered professions, players could contribute more significantly to community projects and events, fostering a sense of teamwork and collective achievement.

Narrative and Roleplaying Opportunities: More professions mean more opportunities for roleplaying and narrative development. Players can create more nuanced and complex backstories for their characters, enriching the game's lore and roleplaying community.

Skill and Mastery Recognition: Increasing the number of professions players can master allows for greater recognition of skill and dedication. It provides a tangible way for players to showcase their commitment and expertise.

While I understand there may be concerns about balance and specialization, I believe these can be addressed through careful game design. The aim is not to diminish the value of specialization but to enhance the overall richness and depth of the game experience.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this matter, whether you're a fellow player or a member of the development team. Let's discuss how we can make Ashes of Creation even more engaging and enjoyable for everyone.

Thank you for considering this proposal.

Best regards,
Magos

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Azherae

Raven016 wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Raven016 wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Raven016 wrote: »

I don't like the idea of everyone to be able to craft everything.

Could you be more specific about this, though?

For example, I have issues with '3 Grandmaster Professions only and everything else capped at Apprentice' for both 'too much available' AND 'too much restriction'. I have problems with '2 Grandmaster, 3 Master, 4 Journeyman' etc in most games because they don't have as many diverse Artisan paths as Ashes.

The OP might like 3 or 4 Mastered professions, which still isn't 'can craft everything' even in most designs, definitely wouldn't be, in Ashes, from what we've seen so far.

My assumption is that the limitation about being able to achieve Gradmastery in everything is that we will not have enough points to allocate to everything.
That is how I seen such constraints implemented previously when the start allows "all" but later you specialize.
Such systems can allow to sacrifice reaching the maximum but spread out more on different branches.
Having a wider spread out correlated to
"Gear has approximately a 40-50% influence on a players overall power in the game.[8]"
makes me worry that it can be enough to have Journeyman or Master level on more branches rather than trying to reach Grandmaster level.

And then I can make one more alt and have on that one too only Journeyman or Master to cover as many branches as possible with small effort, because leveling effort is typically not linear but exponential.

Yes, this is what I'm familiar with as well, but we don't know if that 'old standard' implementation is the one that they have in mind. It certainly doesn't correlate to the original claim, so for now I'm personally assuming that we're in the middle. We moved a bit closer to the way you and I are familiar with, but probably not all the way to that 'Distribute A Limited Number Of Progression Points Among Artisan Skills'.

There's also some other aspects of this that are related to how they want the world to feel and what type of playerbase they expect. A game with only 10% of players wanting to seriously be Artisans, is very different than one where 40% of players are seriously Artisans.

But that's just my personal reason for not having feedback related to 'should they allow more or not'. I can understand either path.

It can also be that the game will not allow more Journeyman or Master levels by sacrificing the Grandmaster.
Then the system will actually hard limit the number at each level. If so, then the only reason to still be somewhat capable of doing other jobs too is to have options when the supply chain structures break down, due to a war, siege or players leaving.
Nodes will have specializations too and players will have one citizenship only.
Not sure if freeholds will have constraints about the number of processing workshops.
It can happen that even if players can theoretically do more, they will still be constraint by what kind of workbenches they have access too.

So, from that perspective, I'd want it designed so that people can achieve the maximum amount of personal satisfaction without breaking the economic concept.

In my experience, it is very good as it is. I think that it should be possible for a Grandmaster Lumberjack to be a Master Lumber-miller and a GrandMaster Carpenter. I personally see this as 'good for the node', 'good for the player', 'good for their guild'.

This is only because, in my mind, smaller Nodes should exist, and those smaller Nodes shouldn't need to have two "Wood focused players" to produce their niches. I don't see a 'problem' with the outcome that 'a large Node with Large Guilds technically fills up their slots too fast' because the player in that situation has a gameplay choice of 'going somewhere else' that I feel would be in line with Ashes' design.

Basically, I think it's fine if a group of 8-12 extremely dedicated Artisans can be self-sufficient and also resilient, i.e. their economic situation doesn't collapse entirely just because one player can't be online or something.

If that's easier to achieve with 3x GrandMaster than 2x, then I'm fine with it. I don't care as much about '5 at Master or Above' vs '3 at Master or Above' for any other reason, but I do wonder if it will 'feel right' to have Town Nodes with two separate Stables, entire slots in the Node, but only maybe 2-3 players at Journeyman Animal Husbandry, for example.

I'm expecting the '5 Master or Above, 9 Journeyman or Above' primarily because it can help to reinforce Node Identity. If my Node gets destroyed and I have 9 skills to 'choose from' when selecting my next place to live until/if rebuild, then I feel it will be more enjoyable than if I have 4 skills and end up 'wanting to push in on someone else's business'.

Raven016

Azherae wrote: »

There's also some other aspects of this that are related to how they want the world to feel and what type of playerbase they expect. A game with only 10% of players wanting to seriously be Artisans, is very different than one where 40% of players are seriously Artisans.

That is true. In a game where 40% are artisans because they can, they take the jobs away from the 10% who really want to do that job.
I think the number of gatherers will be higher because most players want to go out, explore and fight.
Those who process and need a freehold will be fewer.
Best final crafting will be in nodes and those might also be the combat oriented players and the traders who spend more time observing price fluctuations.

Raven016

Azherae wrote: »

Raven016 wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Raven016 wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Raven016 wrote: »

I don't like the idea of everyone to be able to craft everything.

Could you be more specific about this, though?

For example, I have issues with '3 Grandmaster Professions only and everything else capped at Apprentice' for both 'too much available' AND 'too much restriction'. I have problems with '2 Grandmaster, 3 Master, 4 Journeyman' etc in most games because they don't have as many diverse Artisan paths as Ashes.

The OP might like 3 or 4 Mastered professions, which still isn't 'can craft everything' even in most designs, definitely wouldn't be, in Ashes, from what we've seen so far.

My assumption is that the limitation about being able to achieve Gradmastery in everything is that we will not have enough points to allocate to everything.
That is how I seen such constraints implemented previously when the start allows "all" but later you specialize.
Such systems can allow to sacrifice reaching the maximum but spread out more on different branches.
Having a wider spread out correlated to
"Gear has approximately a 40-50% influence on a players overall power in the game.[8]"
makes me worry that it can be enough to have Journeyman or Master level on more branches rather than trying to reach Grandmaster level.

And then I can make one more alt and have on that one too only Journeyman or Master to cover as many branches as possible with small effort, because leveling effort is typically not linear but exponential.

Yes, this is what I'm familiar with as well, but we don't know if that 'old standard' implementation is the one that they have in mind. It certainly doesn't correlate to the original claim, so for now I'm personally assuming that we're in the middle. We moved a bit closer to the way you and I are familiar with, but probably not all the way to that 'Distribute A Limited Number Of Progression Points Among Artisan Skills'.

There's also some other aspects of this that are related to how they want the world to feel and what type of playerbase they expect. A game with only 10% of players wanting to seriously be Artisans, is very different than one where 40% of players are seriously Artisans.

But that's just my personal reason for not having feedback related to 'should they allow more or not'. I can understand either path.

It can also be that the game will not allow more Journeyman or Master levels by sacrificing the Grandmaster.
Then the system will actually hard limit the number at each level. If so, then the only reason to still be somewhat capable of doing other jobs too is to have options when the supply chain structures break down, due to a war, siege or players leaving.
Nodes will have specializations too and players will have one citizenship only.
Not sure if freeholds will have constraints about the number of processing workshops.
It can happen that even if players can theoretically do more, they will still be constraint by what kind of workbenches they have access too.

So, from that perspective, I'd want it designed so that people can achieve the maximum amount of personal satisfaction without breaking the economic concept.

In my experience, it is very good as it is. I think that it should be possible for a Grandmaster Lumberjack to be a Master Lumber-miller and a GrandMaster Carpenter. I personally see this as 'good for the node', 'good for the player', 'good for their guild'.

This is only because, in my mind, smaller Nodes should exist, and those smaller Nodes shouldn't need to have two "Wood focused players" to produce their niches. I don't see a 'problem' with the outcome that 'a large Node with Large Guilds technically fills up their slots too fast' because the player in that situation has a gameplay choice of 'going somewhere else' that I feel would be in line with Ashes' design.

Basically, I think it's fine if a group of 8-12 extremely dedicated Artisans can be self-sufficient and also resilient, i.e. their economic situation doesn't collapse entirely just because one player can't be online or something.

If that's easier to achieve with 3x GrandMaster than 2x, then I'm fine with it. I don't care as much about '5 at Master or Above' vs '3 at Master or Above' for any other reason, but I do wonder if it will 'feel right' to have Town Nodes with two separate Stables, entire slots in the Node, but only maybe 2-3 players at Journeyman Animal Husbandry, for example.

I'm expecting the '5 Master or Above, 9 Journeyman or Above' primarily because it can help to reinforce Node Identity. If my Node gets destroyed and I have 9 skills to 'choose from' when selecting my next place to live until/if rebuild, then I feel it will be more enjoyable than if I have 4 skills and end up 'wanting to push in on someone else's business'.

I also think they considered well what they want to achieve when they decided these numbers.
We will be able to predict better when we have more information, also about resource scarcity and sink.
Maybe they even did a simulation like that for the nodes and their ZoI, where they acquire vassals or siege each-other. Such a simulation could help to have a good guess for many balancing values.

WHIT3ROS3

I suppose it depends on a lot of things. Like how much time/effort it will take to become a GrandMaster in any given profession. If you can cap out two professions at Grandmaster level within your first month of playing, then I think that is a problem.

If it takes several hundred hours I also think that could be a problem as with so much possible content, it would be a bit of a shame to be gated into only doing one or two types of profession when there are so many different types to choose from. I want to be able to gather and process a range of different materials from across the world and from different biomes. I would also love to try out animal husbandry (which I think will be a very popular profession generally) as well as Carpentry or Tailoring. As the system stands I just will not be able to do that.

I think having the 5,4,3,2 narrowing of choice out of 22 professions is too tight IMO. I don't think people should be able to reach Grandmaster in ALL of them, but I do think it is worth considering for the future, a way players who have capped out their professions to unlock the ability to reach Grandmaster in others.

Taleof2Cities

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

I don't think people should be able to reach Grandmaster in ALL of them, but I do think it is worth considering for the future, a way players who have capped out their professions to unlock the ability to reach Grandmaster in others.

You’ll be able to do that Day 1 on an Alt character, WHIT3ROS3.

It’s up to you on how many Alts you want to level up, how many professions you want to cover, and what time investment you want to make in that endeavor.

As someone else pointed out, however, Ashes isn’t a single-player RPG.

A limited few Grandmaster professions per character should get players socializing and cooperating together sooner than later.

Raven016 wrote: »

Having a wider spread out correlated to
"Gear has approximately a 40-50% influence on a players overall power in the game.[8]"
makes me worry that it can be enough to have Journeyman or Master level on more branches rather than trying to reach Grandmaster level.

Not all legendary gear will be crafted, Raven016. Some legendary gear will drop from world bosses, for example.

That distribution will be tested in Alpha 2 of course … but I wouldn’t get too worried about key artisan players that take an extended leave from the game.

WHIT3ROS3

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

I don't think people should be able to reach Grandmaster in ALL of them, but I do think it is worth considering for the future, a way players who have capped out their professions to unlock the ability to reach Grandmaster in others.

You’ll be able to do that Day 1 on an Alt character, WHIT3ROS3.

So what's the difference then? I'm not a fan of ALTS, why have players log out and log in again on a different character? It's still me. It's still me playing it. Why can't I just have that progress on one character?

I know that Ashes isn't a single-player RPG, which is why I stated very clearly that I don't think you should be able to reach master status on ALL of the 22 professions but it might be something to consider to expand the cap for those who cap out their 2 professions. I don't want to make multiple ALTS in order to experience and explore the game's content.

Of course, things could change if you are only able to have GrandMaster status in 2 at a time and can respec for a cost.

Dygz

Because RPGs are about the Character progression. And the devs want decisions to be meaningful.
The devs want to encourage social interaction between players.
Pretty much the same reason we can change Secondary Archetype, but not Primary Archetype.
But... expect it to be tweaked during the Alpha(s) and Betas.

Liniker

I actually wished the system was even more limited, to just being able to master 1 profession from 1 tree and locking the others, needing others should be a requirement for mmorpgs

Depraved

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

I don't think people should be able to reach Grandmaster in ALL of them, but I do think it is worth considering for the future, a way players who have capped out their professions to unlock the ability to reach Grandmaster in others.

You’ll be able to do that Day 1 on an Alt character, WHIT3ROS3.

So what's the difference then? I'm not a fan of ALTS, why have players log out and log in again on a different character? It's still me. It's still me playing it. Why can't I just have that progress on one character?

I know that Ashes isn't a single-player RPG, which is why I stated very clearly that I don't think you should be able to reach master status on ALL of the 22 professions but it might be something to consider to expand the cap for those who cap out their 2 professions. I don't want to make multiple ALTS in order to experience and explore the game's content.

Of course, things could change if you are only able to have GrandMaster status in 2 at a time and can respec for a cost.

whats the diffference? balance reasons and socializing. you might be able to gather different stuff on your alts, but remember you might not be able to kill the mobs around that gathering node because your alt isnt as strong as your main. so you will have to put more time into gearing up that alt or just decide that tis better to socialize and get that material from a friend, or buying it, etc.

Dygz

Liniker wrote: »

I actually wished the system was even more limited, to just being able to master 1 profession from 1 tree and locking the others, needing others should be a requirement for mmorpgs

Two still seems pretty good. Grandmaster Lumberjack and Grandmaster Lumbermill seem to be a very good fit. But if you're making an Ax, you're still going to need help from a Metal worker.

Raven016

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

I don't think people should be able to reach Grandmaster in ALL of them, but I do think it is worth considering for the future, a way players who have capped out their professions to unlock the ability to reach Grandmaster in others.

You’ll be able to do that Day 1 on an Alt character, WHIT3ROS3.

So what's the difference then? I'm not a fan of ALTS, why have players log out and log in again on a different character? It's still me. It's still me playing it. Why can't I just have that progress on one character?

I know that Ashes isn't a single-player RPG, which is why I stated very clearly that I don't think you should be able to reach master status on ALL of the 22 professions but it might be something to consider to expand the cap for those who cap out their 2 professions. I don't want to make multiple ALTS in order to experience and explore the game's content.

Of course, things could change if you are only able to have GrandMaster status in 2 at a time and can respec for a cost.

Making alts actually should have as main advantage bringing new ways of fighting, new race story...
Sadly the artisanship is tied to alts instead of character account. That is a design error as 2-3 years after release players will have more alts and they would have the more artisanship abilities at disposal which you want to get without making alts.
So your request is correct. If they get those advantages, why you playing just one character 3-10 years long should not get it? No way social interactions and supply chain dependencies will remain necessary long time after release.
Basically you are a more ideal player than the others who will create more alts.

Edit:
But freeholds are limited to 1 per account. And many players will not own a freehold which will contain the master level processing stations.

Raven016

The big picture is that

Steven restricted the number of freeholds this summer.
Only freeholds will contain highest level processing stations and their number within a freehold will be limited:
"there's a limited allotment of licenses that can be applied to a freehold in order to make some of those stations reach level two tier and tier three"
the freeholds may want to have stations appropriate for the region or buy resources collected far away:
"materials and resources across the world are unique to the geographic region in which they are produced or which they spawn"
not all highest crafting stations will exist in all nodes:
"crafting stations are located at certain nodes and nodes specialize the types of crafting stations that they can have"
You will have access to the max level crafting stations in only one node on the server:
"Your account is bound to one declared citizenship per server, which means that if you have two alts and your main character on one server, you may only be a citizen of one node between those three"
Citizenship benefits:
Access to upper-tier crafting benches.[18]

If you are a grandmaster crafter, you will want to be citizen of a metropolis.
If you are a grandmaster processor, you will want to have access to freeholds near a metropolis.
Possibly grandmaster gatherers will spend their time in the raids and will not carry their valuable resources in their pockets alone.

Question: can a max level crafting station exist in a node level 4 or 5?
Could be that most players will not be able to use their artisan max level, if they reach it.

Depraved

Raven016 wrote: »

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

I don't think people should be able to reach Grandmaster in ALL of them, but I do think it is worth considering for the future, a way players who have capped out their professions to unlock the ability to reach Grandmaster in others.

You’ll be able to do that Day 1 on an Alt character, WHIT3ROS3.

So what's the difference then? I'm not a fan of ALTS, why have players log out and log in again on a different character? It's still me. It's still me playing it. Why can't I just have that progress on one character?

I know that Ashes isn't a single-player RPG, which is why I stated very clearly that I don't think you should be able to reach master status on ALL of the 22 professions but it might be something to consider to expand the cap for those who cap out their 2 professions. I don't want to make multiple ALTS in order to experience and explore the game's content.

Of course, things could change if you are only able to have GrandMaster status in 2 at a time and can respec for a cost.

Making alts actually should have as main advantage bringing new ways of fighting, new race story...
Sadly the artisanship is tied to alts instead of character account. That is a design error as 2-3 years after release players will have more alts and they would have the more artisanship abilities at disposal which you want to get without making alts.
So your request is correct. If they get those advantages, why you playing just one character 3-10 years long should not get it? No way social interactions and supply chain dependencies will remain necessary long time after release.
Basically you are a more ideal player than the others who will create more alts.

Edit:
But freeholds are limited to 1 per account. And many players will not own a freehold which will contain the master level processing stations.

while you are actually right and i agree with you (maybe except for the error thingie, although id like professions to be account bound), there are certain things that you are missing.

ashes promised enough content and activities that one person isnt going to be able to do everything in one day. on top of that, there will be things that you have to re-farm each season (not the 4 seasons, i mean game seasons). also, new content will be added, which means a potential increase in artisan profession levels, so after a couple of years, there will be something higher than grandmaster and also possibly new professions. also, how long will it take to max each profession?

every time you are trying to level up professions on your alt, you arent playing your main. what are you willing to forfeit on your main for this? and most people dont play 15 hours a day, they play around 4. are you willing to spend 3 years getting everything maxed out so that you can finally be on par with everyone and start making money when you could have just focused on your main and made money anyways? and by then, new stuff will probably come out so are you going to spend another year or 2 getting the new professions or levels maxed out? when will it stop? i suppose some people might be interested in just having all artisan classes maxed and literally just playing artisans, but most people wont be.

another important point is the character limit per account. how many can we have? 1 main and 3 alts, 7, 10? right now one person would need 11 characters to be a grandmaster of everything. even if you remove processing and just keep 2, you would still need 4 characters just to grand master all 8 professions and craft everything 1 for your 2 processing, and 2 for 4 gathering professions and you are sill missing one gathering prof, so if you want that one as well, thats another character. thats 8 characters. can we have 8 characters per account? what if we can only have 3 or 4 characters per account? most people wont pay for 2 or 3 subs.

as far as i know (but maybe this changed and i didnt realize) you can only have 2 processing buildings maxed out on a freehold. so even if you dont get a fh and you join someone elses family who does, you can only do 2 different grand master processing in that fh. there are 9 processing professions (with potentially more a couple of years down the line) so thats 5 accounts with a fh each. does that sound realistic? how many people will ant to have 5 accounts?

i like that one character cant do everything because i dont feel forced to max it out. i only have to worry about 2, not 22 and get everything else trading. if someone wants to stop playing their main for more artisan alts, then go ahead. balance.

Raven016

Depraved wrote: »

Raven016 wrote: »

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

WHIT3ROS3 wrote: »

I don't think people should be able to reach Grandmaster in ALL of them, but I do think it is worth considering for the future, a way players who have capped out their professions to unlock the ability to reach Grandmaster in others.

You’ll be able to do that Day 1 on an Alt character, WHIT3ROS3.

So what's the difference then? I'm not a fan of ALTS, why have players log out and log in again on a different character? It's still me. It's still me playing it. Why can't I just have that progress on one character?

I know that Ashes isn't a single-player RPG, which is why I stated very clearly that I don't think you should be able to reach master status on ALL of the 22 professions but it might be something to consider to expand the cap for those who cap out their 2 professions. I don't want to make multiple ALTS in order to experience and explore the game's content.

Of course, things could change if you are only able to have GrandMaster status in 2 at a time and can respec for a cost.

Making alts actually should have as main advantage bringing new ways of fighting, new race story...
Sadly the artisanship is tied to alts instead of character account. That is a design error as 2-3 years after release players will have more alts and they would have the more artisanship abilities at disposal which you want to get without making alts.
So your request is correct. If they get those advantages, why you playing just one character 3-10 years long should not get it? No way social interactions and supply chain dependencies will remain necessary long time after release.
Basically you are a more ideal player than the others who will create more alts.

Edit:
But freeholds are limited to 1 per account. And many players will not own a freehold which will contain the master level processing stations.

while you are actually right and i agree with you (maybe except for the error thingie, although id like professions to be account bound), there are certain things that you are missing.
...

Yes you are right. I realized that after I posted.
I didn't knew that "2" is the number of max processing stations in a freehold. Thanks for the info.

Depraved

woah

Raven016

I wonder how much competition do we expect to have for freeholds?

Depraved

a lottttt

Raven016

And what is the chance a freehold owner to let others craft repeatedly on their stations to level up their skills to become master artisans?

Depraved

probably too little because he will try to process as well or his family members. maybe he would by selling processing spots...that could be a business, maybe.

Raven016

I wait to see the golden cohort fighting to get a freehold and sieging nodes where owners don't share.

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