No addons what so ever, under any circumstances.

I was just logging off World of Warcraft's Season of Discovery, and i got reminded of the devastating effects of addons.

I still remember how the slippery slope started in Vanilla, with the usual excuses of just having better UI and accessibility.

Fast forward to the current day, and you see a game that has been turned into a conveyor belt single-player experience.

Quest addons that bypasses the reasons why the quests exist in the first place.

Addons that tell you information about the game you shouldn't have access to. Like enemy player hp,buffs and their durations.

Addons force the game devs to start designing raids and bosses around existing addons, making them garbage.

It is not an exaggeration that addons will destroy this game if they are allowed to be used.

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Caww

Fear not.... the wiki speaks..

Addons, DPS meters, and threat meters will not be supported.[1][2][3][4]

My decision is not to allow DPS meters nor add-ons. I feel we have adequate measures in place to prevent a majority of potential third party trackers. I know this subject has passionate voices on both sides and I respect the various opinions and positions many of you have expressed.[3] – Steven Sharif

BlackBrony

In before Noanni "addons can't be avoided, there will be a combat tracker whether IS likes or not"

Depraved

BlackBrony wrote: »

In before Noanni "addons can't be avoided, there will be a combat tracker whether IS likes or not"

"act is aoc ready" XDD

Taaku

unfortunately addons are not all you need to worry about now a days... Overlays are getting more powerful and faster and since they don't technically interact with any game code they are undetectable as far as I know. Unless you are streaming yerself using one.
Edit: Or even if they are detectable I don't think they would be enforcibly prohibited since again, they don't interact with game code at all. Even if they still ruin game experience and will create a sense of elitism in the community... that will be the communities fault.

Kahvipaussi

There are always people who try to use cheats, but officially allowing and encouraging addons have massively more drastic outcomes.
When getting caught using addons results in a permanent ban, it won't ever become the go to norm in game.

Noaani

BlackBrony wrote: »

In before Noanni "addons can't be avoided, there will be a combat tracker whether IS likes or not"

I've not talked much about addons in relation to Ashes.

I know some people think combat trackers are addons, but they arent necessarily. An addon is something that adds on to the games executable, whereas a combat tracker like ACT is its own executable.

As such, it is absolutely not an addon.

Sure, some people may use them term "addon" for all things like this, but them being wrong doesnt mean the rest of us need to be wrong as well.

Solvryn

Kahvipaussi wrote: »

I was just logging off World of Warcraft's Season of Discovery, and i got reminded of the devastating effects of addons.

I still remember how the slippery slope started in Vanilla, with the usual excuses of just having better UI and accessibility.

Fast forward to the current day, and you see a game that has been turned into a conveyor belt single-player experience.

Quest addons that bypasses the reasons why the quests exist in the first place.

Addons that tell you information about the game you shouldn't have access to. Like enemy player hp,buffs and their durations.

Addons force the game devs to start designing raids and bosses around existing addons, making them garbage.

It is not an exaggeration that addons will destroy this game if they are allowed to be used.

You can’t stop me from sticky pads on my desk bub111!!!!!1!!1

Swifty00

Add-ons can be prevented as long as the interface is easy to use. World of Warcraft's healing interface was totally inadequate for what healers were meant to do while raiding in pre-patch vanilla. MMOs back then all were hard, Everquest was another level harder.

You really want a game that is a strategic/tactical challenge, not that is just a test of a players keyboarding or mouse-clicking skills. Or at least there need to be classes/roles that are more or less that way. The game has to be accessible to everyone. Otherwise you get LF1M Healer spamming in chat.

All this is a long way of saying that the best way to avoid add-ons, is for people not to need them!

Ruerik

As already mentioned
Overlays are quite powerful. Including ACT plugins.

Ashes will have in game mechanic solver overlay via ACT before we know it. ACT doesnt interact with game stuff in anyway, it just watches the network traffic, which is all the information it needs to solve everything.

While it might not fit Noanni's rigorous definition of addon, that is just splitting hairs in technicalities. The intention of the words 'no addons supported' means dont have programs running to make your encounter easier. No triggers, no automated callouts, to on screen overlays telling players where to go stand to not get hit, etc etc.

Per the wiki, such things are not supported, and Intrepid is looking into ways to detect use and issue bans.
Streamers beware I guess, since that might be the only way Intrepid will ever know the addon is in use.

@Noanni, before you get mad at me. I am actually in support of having dps meters, but seeing as the rules are clear here, I will simply stick with just parsing the provided combat log for the information I need.

Noaani

Taerrik wrote: »

Noanni, before you get mad at me. I am actually in support of having dps meters, but seeing as the rules are clear here, I will simply stick with just parsing the provided combat log for the information I need.

This is all ACT does.

It doesnt intercept network traffic at all.

All plugins for ACT do is act as a translation layer between the format of the games combat log and ACT. You "could" write an application to read network traffic and then transfer that to a log file in a format ACT can read (via a plugin), but then it is this second application that is reading the network traffic, not ACT.

This is somewhat similar to how ACT for Ashes as it stands now works. There is an application that reads the screen (from YouTube, at this stage) to get information, which then transfers this to a log file (currently in the format of EQ2 log files in order to save me a step), and then it is simply parsed as normal.

Reading network traffic (or reading memory) would only ever be done on any significant scale if there wasnt any access to basic data that trackers look for - if the combat log is even remotely complete, it wont be needed.

As to stating my definition of an addon is too rigorous, if we dont accept that definition, then we need to also consider Chrome to be an addon for the game, if people are using it for gaining information. Discord is also then an addon.

I'd like to see anyone try to say that Discord as an addon is ok despite the massive difference in how the game plays with it vs without it, yet a combat tracker isnt ok - while at least attempting to not be hypocritical.

Ruerik

Anyone trying to make the claim that chrome or discord is an addon is just complaining.
There is a clear intention on the devs meaning here. They cannot give very specific definitions of what programs are addons (because then someone will just make new programs, creating a never ending cycle of the devs updating thier list of bad things)
Same for how programs collect data or interacting with the game.

The intention is clear here. We dont need combat assistance or combat trackers in any shape or form. We dont need quest assistance, market bots, map functions or UI mods. Any overlays or other assistance as well. Pick whatever form of extra notification, devs pretty much told us to discuss it all we want, but its a hard no, and Steven is unlikely to ever change his mind.

I want numbers too, Ill just have to get them from the combat log. I have a feeling that they want to give us nearly everything we ask for as far as the log functionality goes also.

KingDDD

Quest websites like wow head or thottbot will be available day 1. Ui add-ons help declutter an undesired or inaccessible interface. Combat logs help players provide balance related feedback.

If you aren't going to have add-ons you need to have the functionality built into the default UI.

Ruerik

Noaani wrote: »

This is all ACT does.

It doesnt intercept network traffic at all.

All plugins for ACT do is act as a translation layer between the format of the games combat log and ACT. You "could" write an application to read network traffic and then transfer that to a log file in a format ACT can read (via a plugin), but then it is this second applocation that is reading the network traffic, not ACT.

Forgot to respond to this part earlier when I had time to.

ACT does have the capability to intercept network traffic, which in the game I use it for, it does. In its early version of the game plugin it just followed to combat log, but now it reads network traffic directly, which has drastically expanded its capabilities far beyond just a DPS parser. Now there exist additional plugins for ACT that dont measure damage, but actually do what you call combat assistance. Its a cheater app now, when before it was only a DPS meter.

Combat logs are just fine, we can parse them ourselves to examine the numbers too if we want. We shouldnt want apps that read the network traffic and cheat encounters for us.

Noaani

Taerrik wrote: »

Its a cheater app now, when before it was only a DPS meter.

You know you wouldn't be able to say this without me calling it out.

Here, I'll link you a version history of every ACT release since 2011. Show me which one adds functionality to read network traffic. I'd happily accept even just an update to that functionality.

Now, since you can't do that (can't show me something that doesn't exist), I'll instead tell you what has probably happened.

What has probably happened is that you have come across either an installer for ACT for what ever game you are playing, and that installer also installs plugins for ACT that have the functionality you talk about, OR you have simply followed instructions to install ACT and a number of plugins which has bought you to the same outcome.

So, essentially, it isn't a case of ACT being a "cheater app", but rather the way it is being used is functioning as such.

Now, the issue I have is that this applies to literally any application. You can use a web browser to do basically the same thing, you could write a plugin for Excel to literally read network traffic and parse out the information just as ACT does (a combat parser is basically just a spreadsheet).

The thing is, in both cases you don't then label the application as being a "cheater app", because it is blatantly obvious that it is the specific use case of the application that is "cheating". What you seem to be missing is that this also applies to ACT - it isn't that ACT is a "cheater app" - it just could be considered cheating based on the way you are using it.

With that being the case, don't blame the application, blame the user. When I use ACT it does not and can not read network traffic.

If it is doing that when you use it, that is on you, not on ACT.

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

Taerrik wrote: »

Its a cheater app now, when before it was only a DPS meter.

You know you wouldn't be able to say this without me calling it out.

Here, I'll link you a version history of every ACT release since 2011. Show me which one adds functionality to read network traffic. I'd happily accept even just an update to that functionality.

Now, since you can't do that (can't show me something that doesn't exist), I'll instead tell you what has probably happened.

What has probably happened is that you have come across either an installer for ACT for what ever game you are playing, and that installer also installs plugins for ACT that have the functionality you talk about, OR you have simply followed instructions to install ACT and a number of plugins which has bought you to the same outcome.

So, essentially, it isn't a case of ACT being a "cheater app", but rather the way it is being used is functioning as such.

Now, the issue I have is that this applies to literally any application. You can use a web browser to do basically the same thing, you could write a plugin for Excel to literally read network traffic and parse out the information just as ACT does (a combat parser is basically just a spreadsheet).

The thing is, in both cases you don't then label the application as being a "cheater app", because it is blatantly obvious that it is the specific use case of the application that is "cheating". What you seem to be missing is that this also applies to ACT - it isn't that ACT is a "cheater app" - it just could be considered cheating based on the way you are using it.

With that being the case, don't blame the application, blame the user. When I use ACT it does not and can not read network traffic.

If it is doing that when you use it, that is on you, not on ACT.

but if the app can be used to cheat through plugins, shouldnt we prevent the app from being used? or at least make it illegal? how can we know if a user is using the app to cheat or not? you cant know what plugins they installed.

BlackBrony

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Taerrik wrote: »

Its a cheater app now, when before it was only a DPS meter.

You know you wouldn't be able to say this without me calling it out.

Here, I'll link you a version history of every ACT release since 2011. Show me which one adds functionality to read network traffic. I'd happily accept even just an update to that functionality.

Now, since you can't do that (can't show me something that doesn't exist), I'll instead tell you what has probably happened.

What has probably happened is that you have come across either an installer for ACT for what ever game you are playing, and that installer also installs plugins for ACT that have the functionality you talk about, OR you have simply followed instructions to install ACT and a number of plugins which has bought you to the same outcome.

So, essentially, it isn't a case of ACT being a "cheater app", but rather the way it is being used is functioning as such.

Now, the issue I have is that this applies to literally any application. You can use a web browser to do basically the same thing, you could write a plugin for Excel to literally read network traffic and parse out the information just as ACT does (a combat parser is basically just a spreadsheet).

The thing is, in both cases you don't then label the application as being a "cheater app", because it is blatantly obvious that it is the specific use case of the application that is "cheating". What you seem to be missing is that this also applies to ACT - it isn't that ACT is a "cheater app" - it just could be considered cheating based on the way you are using it.

With that being the case, don't blame the application, blame the user. When I use ACT it does not and can not read network traffic.

If it is doing that when you use it, that is on you, not on ACT.

but if the app can be used to cheat through plugins, shouldnt we prevent the app from being used? or at least make it illegal? how can we know if a user is using the app to cheat or not? you cant know what plugins they installed.

But HOW WILL I PLAY THE GAME WITHOUT THE NUMBERS, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!

Depraved

BlackBrony wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Taerrik wrote: »

Its a cheater app now, when before it was only a DPS meter.

You know you wouldn't be able to say this without me calling it out.

Here, I'll link you a version history of every ACT release since 2011. Show me which one adds functionality to read network traffic. I'd happily accept even just an update to that functionality.

Now, since you can't do that (can't show me something that doesn't exist), I'll instead tell you what has probably happened.

What has probably happened is that you have come across either an installer for ACT for what ever game you are playing, and that installer also installs plugins for ACT that have the functionality you talk about, OR you have simply followed instructions to install ACT and a number of plugins which has bought you to the same outcome.

So, essentially, it isn't a case of ACT being a "cheater app", but rather the way it is being used is functioning as such.

Now, the issue I have is that this applies to literally any application. You can use a web browser to do basically the same thing, you could write a plugin for Excel to literally read network traffic and parse out the information just as ACT does (a combat parser is basically just a spreadsheet).

The thing is, in both cases you don't then label the application as being a "cheater app", because it is blatantly obvious that it is the specific use case of the application that is "cheating". What you seem to be missing is that this also applies to ACT - it isn't that ACT is a "cheater app" - it just could be considered cheating based on the way you are using it.

With that being the case, don't blame the application, blame the user. When I use ACT it does not and can not read network traffic.

If it is doing that when you use it, that is on you, not on ACT.

but if the app can be used to cheat through plugins, shouldnt we prevent the app from being used? or at least make it illegal? how can we know if a user is using the app to cheat or not? you cant know what plugins they installed.

But HOW WILL I PLAY THE GAME WITHOUT THE NUMBERS, IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!

just press your buttons xDDDDDDD

Noaani

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Taerrik wrote: »

Its a cheater app now, when before it was only a DPS meter.

You know you wouldn't be able to say this without me calling it out.

Here, I'll link you a version history of every ACT release since 2011. Show me which one adds functionality to read network traffic. I'd happily accept even just an update to that functionality.

Now, since you can't do that (can't show me something that doesn't exist), I'll instead tell you what has probably happened.

What has probably happened is that you have come across either an installer for ACT for what ever game you are playing, and that installer also installs plugins for ACT that have the functionality you talk about, OR you have simply followed instructions to install ACT and a number of plugins which has bought you to the same outcome.

So, essentially, it isn't a case of ACT being a "cheater app", but rather the way it is being used is functioning as such.

Now, the issue I have is that this applies to literally any application. You can use a web browser to do basically the same thing, you could write a plugin for Excel to literally read network traffic and parse out the information just as ACT does (a combat parser is basically just a spreadsheet).

The thing is, in both cases you don't then label the application as being a "cheater app", because it is blatantly obvious that it is the specific use case of the application that is "cheating". What you seem to be missing is that this also applies to ACT - it isn't that ACT is a "cheater app" - it just could be considered cheating based on the way you are using it.

With that being the case, don't blame the application, blame the user. When I use ACT it does not and can not read network traffic.

If it is doing that when you use it, that is on you, not on ACT.

but if the app can be used to cheat through plugins, shouldnt we prevent the app from being used?

Only if this applies across the board.

I can create a plugin for Excel to do exactly the same thing. Does this mean Intrepid shouldnt let anyone run the game with Excel running as well?

Discord has been used to facilitate unintended gameplay for years, should that also be banned?

What about the windows command prompt? Should Intrepid also ban that from being open at the same time as the game client?

Or are we only going to ask them to "ban" applications from smaller developers that dont have the resources to fight back?

Then we could get in to the logistics of how - do you want Intrepid to know every application you have running on your computer, and exactly what that application is doing?

Depraved

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Taerrik wrote: »

Its a cheater app now, when before it was only a DPS meter.

You know you wouldn't be able to say this without me calling it out.

Here, I'll link you a version history of every ACT release since 2011. Show me which one adds functionality to read network traffic. I'd happily accept even just an update to that functionality.

Now, since you can't do that (can't show me something that doesn't exist), I'll instead tell you what has probably happened.

What has probably happened is that you have come across either an installer for ACT for what ever game you are playing, and that installer also installs plugins for ACT that have the functionality you talk about, OR you have simply followed instructions to install ACT and a number of plugins which has bought you to the same outcome.

So, essentially, it isn't a case of ACT being a "cheater app", but rather the way it is being used is functioning as such.

Now, the issue I have is that this applies to literally any application. You can use a web browser to do basically the same thing, you could write a plugin for Excel to literally read network traffic and parse out the information just as ACT does (a combat parser is basically just a spreadsheet).

The thing is, in both cases you don't then label the application as being a "cheater app", because it is blatantly obvious that it is the specific use case of the application that is "cheating". What you seem to be missing is that this also applies to ACT - it isn't that ACT is a "cheater app" - it just could be considered cheating based on the way you are using it.

With that being the case, don't blame the application, blame the user. When I use ACT it does not and can not read network traffic.

If it is doing that when you use it, that is on you, not on ACT.

but if the app can be used to cheat through plugins, shouldnt we prevent the app from being used?

Only if this applies across the board.

I can create a plugin for Excel to do exactly the same thing. Does this mean Intrepid shouldnt let anyone run the game with Excel running as well?

Discord has been used to facilitate unintended gameplay for years, should that also be banned?

What about the windows command prompt? Should Intrepid also ban that from being open at the same time as the game client?

Or are we only going to ask them to "ban" applications from smaller developers that dont have the resources to fight back?

Then we could get in to the logistics of how - do you want Intrepid to know every application you have running on your computer, and exactly what that application is doing?

you are side stepping the issue. ok lets go with your logic here.

lets say i make a bot that can afk farm, quest, etc. it also has a radar to detect nearby players, it also has auto heals and auto buffs so i dont have to worry about keeping my party buffed. it informs me who is targeting me an wen an aoe is coming so i can just move back, etc. loss of combat assist. but it also has a combat tracker. it reads the combat logs and presents them in a friendlier format for my eyes. should players be allowed to use this program as long as they keep the bot, combat assist and radar off and only use the combat tracking functionality?

also, to answer your questions excel and discord woulnt count as addons. an add on is basically like a plug in that you add to a software. so intrepid said no addons, meaning people wont be able to develop their own apps (probably using lua which is very common in gaming) to load them when the game launches as part of extra functionality.

2nd thing is, intrepid doesnt want dps meters, so using excel as a dps meter / combat tracker would fall into the category of dps meters / combat trackers, so they arent allowed. if it read the logs file after you closed the game, then it wouldnt be considered an addon / plugin. its like trying to use a chrome extension when chrome is not even open...

also lets say somone creates a plugin for act that gives u a radar and tells you when players are nearby, or that automatically dodges an aoe (automated gameplay), should intrepid forbid or prevent the use of act or find a way to block the plugin from working?

im not aware how discord has been used to facilitate unintended gameplay, other than using voice coms. it is more acceptable because back then, you would play games with people in the same room with you, or physical location and you could just talk to them, so voice com programs just emulated that, since now you are playing games with people who arent int he same location as you. it would be the equivalent of using a regular house phone and calling your friends while you play.

edit: regarding the logistics of how intrepid can know every app you have running...well there are ways to do that. im sure people could make apps undetectable, but the point is that if you are caught using them, you would be punished.

Scarctic

I never liked system-changing addons or third-party tools in MMORPG's.
Customizable UI and cosmetics should be the limit and anything else is cheating!
(I love addons as singleplayer or hosted multiplayer games where you can spread chaos and delve into limitless content from the community)

MMORPG's should work as they are meant to do prioritized by the dev's vision in cooperation with the majority of the community and if you don't like that fact play something else...

They should watch any network information being read and what program is reading it.

Every account should be linked to one or more machines but there has to be a whitelist for programs that can read the game's network information and only those should be allowed access in the first place.

If the program is unknown in combination with the account the player is using( and for instance, if one account reads traffic with more than the commonly needed software to do so...) investigate further and add the program the player is using to the whitelist if the use of illegal third-party software can be disproved by the admins with the help of the player.

If the player wants to log in again he has to cooperate and give correct information about the programs he uses to read the game's information. If he won't do that even with the full technical support of the admin following a certain process, the account gets closed until everything gets cleared up.

If the program isn't hidden via proxy, VPN, etc., and is written on a blacklist for programs commonly used for illegal activities quarantine the account and investigate further until the decision for a ban or not is clear.

If Intrepid can't detect software down to this level it can't be stopped by them until the player makes an error on his side. But the community is not responsible for their tech issues only to behave in the way they want us in the games terms of use. So if no one detects any harm there was no harm.

I will report anyone i see using these tools in a toxic way tho, so feel free to get banned.

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