COMBAT - More SKILL shot abilities

We need MORE of these for all ARCHTYPE / CLASSES

It's the blend of "action combat" that could really allow for more dynamic combat, with the use of the action camera.

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Enigmatic Sage

Vyril wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

I'm not against skill shots and healing abilities.

Side note...

ranger+cleric (soulbow) life augments could do some minor healing or minimally apply precursor status effects to target for cleric procedurals.

Oh yeah I wasn't even thinking like that either.

Cleric using a bow, and having actual skill shots that come from the Ranger augments.

I can get behind some ultra ranged skill shot healing.

Ranger + Cleric = soulbow. Ranger abilities with cleric augments (life and death)

Cleric + Ranger = protector. Cleric abilities with ranger augments (hunts and marks?)

Could definitely see some main weapon type tangible options.

Voeltz

They're leaning tab heavily. I prefer action combat much more but I don't expect them to pivot from one extreme to the other. They should go the route of League of Legends at this point. Roughly 50/50 on auto target and skill shots with a wide variety. Ground target AOEs, frontal cones, linear aoes, and projectile based skill shots. All of which have various effects, damage, healing, CCs, buffs, and debuffs.

Vyril

Voeltz wrote: »

They're leaning tab heavily. I prefer action combat much more but I don't expect them to pivot from one extreme to the other. They should go the route of League of Legends at this point. Roughly 50/50 on auto target and skill shots with a wide variety. Ground target AOEs, frontal cones, linear aoes, and projectile based skill shots. All of which have various effects, damage, healing, CCs, buffs, and debuffs.

I didn't want to bring up LoL specifically, but the Scatter Shot immediately made me think of LoL.

The game can still be mostly tab, don't mind it. Just add in some spice with more Scatter Shot inspired abilities for all the classes etc.

Enigmatic Sage

The action aiming mode is essentially just soft tab targeting based on where your crosshair is/near unless you choose to hard target. World of Warcraft has the same option called Action Targeting. Saves some time but is still essentially tab targeting.

AoC does feel more like a tab target combat game even with the "action" soft targeting regardless of these "skill" shots, being able to do abilities without a target and holding a shield especially with the RNG passive defensives in play as we saw with the tank passively blocking.

Seems as if about every MMORPG with "tab-target" combat has action aiming/soft targeting and some action combat elements such as dodging, active blocking etc. Quite difficult to call it a unique system when most games are doing it now. Not that this is a bad thing per se, it's just been currently given too much credit for innovation in my opinion.

Vyril

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

The action aiming mode is essentially just soft tab targeting based on where your crosshair is/near unless you choose to hard target. World of Warcraft has the same option called Action Targeting. Saves some time but is still essentially tab targeting.

AoC does feel more like a tab target combat game even with the "action" soft targeting regardless of these "skill" shots, being able to do abilities without a target and holding a shield especially with the RNG passive defensives in play as we saw with the tank passively blocking.

Seems as if about every MMORPG with "tab-target" combat has action aiming/soft targeting and some action combat elements such as dodging, active blocking etc. Quite difficult to call it a unique system when most games are doing it now. Not that this is a bad thing per se, it's just been currently given too much credit for innovation in my opinion.

Skill Shots/Template AoE are not using soft-targeting. It's free aim.

Enigmatic Sage

Vyril wrote: »

Enigmatic Sage wrote: »

The action aiming mode is essentially just soft tab targeting based on where your crosshair is/near unless you choose to hard target. World of Warcraft has the same option called Action Targeting. Saves some time but is still essentially tab targeting.

AoC does feel more like a tab target combat game even with the "action" soft targeting regardless of these "skill" shots, being able to do abilities without a target and holding a shield especially with the RNG passive defensives in play as we saw with the tank passively blocking.

Seems as if about every MMORPG with "tab-target" combat has action aiming/soft targeting and some action combat elements such as dodging, active blocking etc. Quite difficult to call it a unique system when most games are doing it now. Not that this is a bad thing per se, it's just been currently given too much credit for innovation in my opinion.

Skill Shots/Template AoE are not using soft-targeting. It's free aim.

i know.. it goes without saying plus I did mention it in the post. Other games have them too that are "tab-target" lol.

Enigmatic Sage

@Vyril

this "skill" shot is a direction narrowing cleave / narrowing frontal

Raining Death (i believe)

Is a Frontal With Multi Target Tracking, aka homing missiles

Other than Air strike and flying around like peter pan, most of the other abilities we saw were your typical tab target which work the same with Action Targeting.

It really comes down to how the ability is designed for class and type. Sure we can "free-aim" but it's definitely heavily favouring tab-target in ability ratio's currently. I dont really need to explain how some melee abilities/attacks are essentially aoe cleaves.

Mag7spy

Voeltz wrote: »

They're leaning tab heavily. I prefer action combat much more but I don't expect them to pivot from one extreme to the other. They should go the route of League of Legends at this point. Roughly 50/50 on auto target and skill shots with a wide variety. Ground target AOEs, frontal cones, linear aoes, and projectile based skill shots. All of which have various effects, damage, healing, CCs, buffs, and debuffs.

its not really one or other its both based on what players want to do with some leaning more towards action or tab. If you use action all tab skills work based on who you are targeting. They just have not shown it as much since things are being developed.

Voeltz

Mag7spy wrote: »

its not really one or other its both based on what players want to do with some leaning more towards action or tab. If you use action all tab skills work based on who you are targeting. They just have not shown it as much since things are being developed.

IT IS one or the other. The design of the ability is what determines how it is used, not the combat mode. Both have a lock on function regardless. 3 out of the 20 or so skills that were showcased needed to be aimed, that's barely anything and obviously tab focused combat.

Xeeg

Liniker wrote: »

yea... nah, big pass for me, can't think of a single MMO that had skill shot healing, not even full action games like new world, they added target locking for a reason, it sucks

Don't the WOW Dracthyr healers have "skill shots"? At least at the same level as Scatter Shot was shown on stream.

Enigmatic Sage

Don't get me wrong.
I'm not saying it is a bad thing, I'm just pointing it out with the confusion people may have about this game and how common it is in other games across the genre.

Enigmatic Sage

Xeeg wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

yea... nah, big pass for me, can't think of a single MMO that had skill shot healing, not even full action games like new world, they added target locking for a reason, it sucks

Don't the WOW Dracthyr healers have "skill shots"? At least at the same level as Scatter Shot was shown on stream.

yes. They have empowered(charge) abilties that are "skill" based too. They have their own version of a " hybrid" system. Ashes has a slight step forward on universal "action" side of things.

Mag7spy

Voeltz wrote: »

Mag7spy wrote: »

its not really one or other its both based on what players want to do with some leaning more towards action or tab. If you use action all tab skills work based on who you are targeting. They just have not shown it as much since things are being developed.

IT IS one or the other. The design of the ability is what determines how it is used, not the combat mode. Both have a lock on function regardless. 3 out of the 20 or so skills that were showcased needed to be aimed, that's barely anything and obviously tab focused combat.

That is not how they are approaching it, they already showed this in the first ranger teaser. They are just giving people the option to pick what they want, though some will be more tab oriented and action with that 25% (IE the new ranger skill where you hold it im sure will be counted.)

Krald

dkslater_ wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

why tf would a cleric need skill shots?

Don't ground targeted AoEs also count as skillshots?

It's unfortunately just a semantics discussion but in general, I would say it depends on the size of the AoE.
If an AoE is massive then there's really not much skill discrepancy in the execution of it.
Example - 95% of players are likely going to use Raining Death and the aoe Scatter Shot correctly almost every time. Hard to call them 'skill' shots in that sense.

What the game needs more of imo is thin linear templates, similar to what scatter's charge has, but also for some single target abilities and without a charge needed.
It would be really cool if headshot could be augmented (or just changed) to being a thin template with more damage instead of auto aiming to the target.

Consistent mouse control is obviously not the only way to express skill but it's certainly a big way.
And in general, a lot of players love having something to work towards progressing mechanically, instead of simply grinding out their gear math.

Krald

dkslater_ wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

why tf would a cleric need skill shots?

Don't ground targeted AoEs also count as skillshots?

It's unfortunately a semantics discussion but I really think it depends on the size of the AoE.
Example - 95% of players are going to use Raining Death and the wide Scatter shot properly almost every single time. It's hard to call that a 'skill' shot.

The game really does need more thin lined templates imo, especially if they're actually wanting a hybrid approach, and particularly on precision based moves. Headshot implies that you are being extremely accurate, and I would love if you could augment it (or simply change the base move) to be a thin lined template similar to the Scatter Shot focus. Increase the damage to compensate for the inconsistency.

Obviously consistent mouse control is not the only way to express skill but its certainly a really big one;
And a lot of players really enjoy having something to mechanically progress... instead of simply focusing on grinding their gear math.

Krald

Xeeg wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

yea... nah, big pass for me, can't think of a single MMO that had skill shot healing, not even full action games like new world, they added target locking for a reason, it sucks

Don't the WOW Dracthyr healers have "skill shots"? At least at the same level as Scatter Shot was shown on stream.

Yes, and there have been a few other moves such as Divine Star.
I really don't think its something you would make as a primary focus for healers, but having 1-2 that are impactful mixes up the gameplay and seems cool.

Yenn0war

If they want to go that route, variety when it comes of telegraphs of skill shots is very important.
League of Legends, Smite and even Dota 2 have all kinds of shapes (T shaped, rectangle, rectangle that ends in circle, arcs, circle, vector-based etc) and mechanics like (delayed, have 2-3 mechanics in one, continuous, ticking, totem based etc)

Vyril

Treefrog wrote: »

dkslater_ wrote: »

Liniker wrote: »

why tf would a cleric need skill shots?

Don't ground targeted AoEs also count as skillshots?

The game really does need more thin lined templates imo, especially if they're actually wanting a hybrid approach, and particularly on precision based moves.

The 'hybrid' shines with these types of abilities.

Diamaht

Vyril wrote: »

We need MORE of these for all ARCHTYPE / CLASSES

It's the blend of "action combat" that could really allow for more dynamic combat, with the use of the action camera.

Abilities that can be manipulated to suit the situation, definitely. If that's what you mean, like the example above, then absolutely. Loved that showcase.

If you mean more power because you used shooter like skills and its a reward for handicaping yourself, then I would say no.

Vyril

Diamaht wrote: »

Vyril wrote: »

We need MORE of these for all ARCHTYPE / CLASSES

It's the blend of "action combat" that could really allow for more dynamic combat, with the use of the action camera.

Abilities that can be manipulated to suit the situation, definitely. If that's what you mean, like the example above, then absolutely. Loved that showcase.

If you mean more power because you used shooter like skills and its a reward for handicaping yourself, then I would say no.

I think it's whatever can get tested and be fun. So far the Scatter Shot is more damage when it's a beam, because it requires more time.

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