daveywavey wrote: » Intrepid haven't let us down, so far. As has been said, let's wait for testing!
rikardp98 wrote: » Depraved wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » SirChancelot wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » NiKr wrote: » There is only 8 "classes". Don't believe the "augments will drastically change abilities" until you see it happen on at least a single archetype. Ashes is a game with 8 classes and parties of 8 people. It's a perfect fit. Yeah that's why I kind of feel like they shouldn't even bother with the arguments and focus on the base archetype and maybe add one or two more for that extra variety. But the thing is those secondaries will also be 'recycled'. The effects that one archtype has as a secondary will have the same theme of effects being applied to each primary. Well creating a theme for the secondary archetype is easy, the difficult part is implementing it and making it a somewhat balanced and fun ability. this is how it works. you dont build skills, you build a factory that builds skills. this is the simples way i can explain this. there are other ways to do it, like using composition, but i dont want to go into technical details. so you have something like this: (not a real language) Skill = { name: heal, icon: C:\aoc\images\icons\heal.png, healAmount: 100, damage: 0, range: 20 element: none, critRate: 0 ... ... etc etc etc } you can create new skills by changing the values, such as name, damage, etc and you just attach these skills to a class. if you play cleric/ mage and use fire augments, now your skill healAmount is set to 0, damage is set to 100 and element is set to fire. maybe you can add a red/orange/yellow filter to the png icon so u dont have to draw a new one. and if you use the lightning augment, then the element is set to lightning, you add a white/light blue/yellow filter to it. change the particles color, etc if you play cleric/ranger, maybe the augment only changes the range to 35, if you play cleric/cleric, then the heal amount changes to 150. you could also change another value so that it applies a heal over time to your target, etc a rogue secondary would change the crit rate to 20 for example. the point is that you are just changing numbers, basically. you still have to think about what numbers you want to change. also, iirc steven said that not all skills will be augmentable, so they wont have to work on 200+ skills or whatever. you can still use this skill factory to create a new class, but a new class is so much more work. you have to think about what class you are going to make. is it going to be a monk? a druid?, witch? a rune knight?, etc, etc. then you have to design a stat growth for that class, you gotta draw new icons for the skills, create new sound and visual effects, animations, etc. at some point you will end up changing skill values and all that, but not before you have to do the entire process that happens before you get to that point, and of course, they go through multiple iterations and play tests. and that process can take several months. adding 4 more classes, you are probably looking at 2 years of work for whoever has to make them. so nope, adding more classes isnt easier and faster than just changing some values on the skills you already made. on top of that, they already have an augment system. remember you can get augments from religions and social organizations? so now they gonna have to scrap all that because you think the game will fail if they dont add 4 more classes instead? xDD And implementing augmented abilities that relates to an archetype and its fantasy AND the base archetype isn't as simple as "lets change the dmg from physical to fire". You need to change the sound, the effects, maybe even animations on some abilities (add or remove) and they need to have variety within the augmented abilities so it doesn't get boring and feel the same. Then you need to do that on some number of abilities 8 times for all 8 base archetypes. That will easily add up to +1000 abilities they need to work on.
Depraved wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » SirChancelot wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » NiKr wrote: » There is only 8 "classes". Don't believe the "augments will drastically change abilities" until you see it happen on at least a single archetype. Ashes is a game with 8 classes and parties of 8 people. It's a perfect fit. Yeah that's why I kind of feel like they shouldn't even bother with the arguments and focus on the base archetype and maybe add one or two more for that extra variety. But the thing is those secondaries will also be 'recycled'. The effects that one archtype has as a secondary will have the same theme of effects being applied to each primary. Well creating a theme for the secondary archetype is easy, the difficult part is implementing it and making it a somewhat balanced and fun ability. this is how it works. you dont build skills, you build a factory that builds skills. this is the simples way i can explain this. there are other ways to do it, like using composition, but i dont want to go into technical details. so you have something like this: (not a real language) Skill = { name: heal, icon: C:\aoc\images\icons\heal.png, healAmount: 100, damage: 0, range: 20 element: none, critRate: 0 ... ... etc etc etc } you can create new skills by changing the values, such as name, damage, etc and you just attach these skills to a class. if you play cleric/ mage and use fire augments, now your skill healAmount is set to 0, damage is set to 100 and element is set to fire. maybe you can add a red/orange/yellow filter to the png icon so u dont have to draw a new one. and if you use the lightning augment, then the element is set to lightning, you add a white/light blue/yellow filter to it. change the particles color, etc if you play cleric/ranger, maybe the augment only changes the range to 35, if you play cleric/cleric, then the heal amount changes to 150. you could also change another value so that it applies a heal over time to your target, etc a rogue secondary would change the crit rate to 20 for example. the point is that you are just changing numbers, basically. you still have to think about what numbers you want to change. also, iirc steven said that not all skills will be augmentable, so they wont have to work on 200+ skills or whatever. you can still use this skill factory to create a new class, but a new class is so much more work. you have to think about what class you are going to make. is it going to be a monk? a druid?, witch? a rune knight?, etc, etc. then you have to design a stat growth for that class, you gotta draw new icons for the skills, create new sound and visual effects, animations, etc. at some point you will end up changing skill values and all that, but not before you have to do the entire process that happens before you get to that point, and of course, they go through multiple iterations and play tests. and that process can take several months. adding 4 more classes, you are probably looking at 2 years of work for whoever has to make them. so nope, adding more classes isnt easier and faster than just changing some values on the skills you already made. on top of that, they already have an augment system. remember you can get augments from religions and social organizations? so now they gonna have to scrap all that because you think the game will fail if they dont add 4 more classes instead? xDD
rikardp98 wrote: » SirChancelot wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » NiKr wrote: » There is only 8 "classes". Don't believe the "augments will drastically change abilities" until you see it happen on at least a single archetype. Ashes is a game with 8 classes and parties of 8 people. It's a perfect fit. Yeah that's why I kind of feel like they shouldn't even bother with the arguments and focus on the base archetype and maybe add one or two more for that extra variety. But the thing is those secondaries will also be 'recycled'. The effects that one archtype has as a secondary will have the same theme of effects being applied to each primary. Well creating a theme for the secondary archetype is easy, the difficult part is implementing it and making it a somewhat balanced and fun ability.
SirChancelot wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » NiKr wrote: » There is only 8 "classes". Don't believe the "augments will drastically change abilities" until you see it happen on at least a single archetype. Ashes is a game with 8 classes and parties of 8 people. It's a perfect fit. Yeah that's why I kind of feel like they shouldn't even bother with the arguments and focus on the base archetype and maybe add one or two more for that extra variety. But the thing is those secondaries will also be 'recycled'. The effects that one archtype has as a secondary will have the same theme of effects being applied to each primary.
rikardp98 wrote: » NiKr wrote: » There is only 8 "classes". Don't believe the "augments will drastically change abilities" until you see it happen on at least a single archetype. Ashes is a game with 8 classes and parties of 8 people. It's a perfect fit. Yeah that's why I kind of feel like they shouldn't even bother with the arguments and focus on the base archetype and maybe add one or two more for that extra variety.
NiKr wrote: » There is only 8 "classes". Don't believe the "augments will drastically change abilities" until you see it happen on at least a single archetype. Ashes is a game with 8 classes and parties of 8 people. It's a perfect fit.
What I'm saying is that if they scrap the 8 augmented ability system (64 classes) and just stick to base archetypes. Classes will not only be more based to its class fantasy, but it will also be easier to add new archetypes with new class fantasies in the future. And maybe at some point (not any time soon), 12 or more classes to have a good spread of archetypes and class fantasies that feel complete and fun.
Depraved wrote: » but it is like that. it is as simple as changing some values. for example, steven mentioned that the warrior has a dash, if you augment it with the teleport augment from mage, instead of dashing, the warrior now teleports to his target. one way to do that is by setting the dash speed really REALLY high, so it appears as if the warrior was teleporting. this still adheres to the class fantasy, and all you did was change 1 number. im not saying some abilities might not receive an animation or effects change, but not all of them will. you can recycle the things you have already created, and also just change colors and add filters. im sure we will still receive more archetypes in future patches, a few years after release.
Depraved wrote: » these things arent mutually exclusive. you can have good class fantasies and still add the augment system. just because you have an augment system, doesnt mean the base archetype will be incomplete. we already talked about this. i dont know why you believe that. look at the ranger, it feels like a ranger. do you think if they add augments, it will feel less like a ranger suddenly?
rikardp98 wrote: » After seeing the ranger update I'm very confident in IS being able to make some great classes. However, I'm starting to doubt the 64 class model and would rather have around 10-12 well designed and unique classes that is also well balanced (in a group play setting). 64 different classes would be cool, but it will take a lot of work/time and money to make all those classes feel unique, have depth in its gameplay and be a viable option for PvP or PvE. Yes, the biggest hurdle is to create a good base archetype, but making the second archetype feel important and impactful will still be a HUGE hurdle and a big time investment. I'm convinced that IS could make it happen, but I'm not sure if it's worth it?
willsummon wrote: » Sage, I fully agree. That is how I see it. Also, the way it looks. Each class will have two roles each. Unlike in WoW where some classes could have three or four roles each.
Enigmatic Sage wrote: » willsummon wrote: » Sage, I fully agree. That is how I see it. Also, the way it looks. Each class will have two roles each. Unlike in WoW where some classes could have three or four roles each. In some ways this can be more interesting as if you enjoy playing tanks, you dont need to reroll 5 different classes to try all the tank specs unless you really want to lol. Can be a paladin one month and a Guardian the next. Realistically for the alt-o-holics.. you only need to make 8 characters unless class and race is that personally significant to the player
willsummon wrote: » Enigmatic Sage wrote: » willsummon wrote: » Sage, I fully agree. That is how I see it. Also, the way it looks. Each class will have two roles each. Unlike in WoW where some classes could have three or four roles each. In some ways this can be more interesting as if you enjoy playing tanks, you dont need to reroll 5 different classes to try all the tank specs unless you really want to lol. Can be a paladin one month and a Guardian the next. Realistically for the alt-o-holics.. you only need to make 8 characters unless class and race is that personally significant to the player I agree. Also, it is very possible that classes that use the same two archetypes will mirror each other and be very different in how they play.
willsummon wrote: » rikardp98 wrote: » After seeing the ranger update I'm very confident in IS being able to make some great classes. However, I'm starting to doubt the 64 class model and would rather have around 10-12 well designed and unique classes that is also well balanced (in a group play setting). 64 different classes would be cool, but it will take a lot of work/time and money to make all those classes feel unique, have depth in its gameplay and be a viable option for PvP or PvE. Yes, the biggest hurdle is to create a good base archetype, but making the second archetype feel important and impactful will still be a HUGE hurdle and a big time investment. I'm convinced that IS could make it happen, but I'm not sure if it's worth it? The augment class system is a way for Ashes of Creation to have their cake and eat it to. One of the issues with MMO is that most MMO are designed so each class/archetype is different from the other classes/archetypes. This augment class system allows for classes that are similar but different enough such classes could not be merged together. Done right this will allow most players to find the archetype combination that suits them best.
rikardp98 wrote: » Enigmatic Sage wrote: » willsummon wrote: » Sage, I fully agree. That is how I see it. Also, the way it looks. Each class will have two roles each. Unlike in WoW where some classes could have three or four roles each. In some ways this can be more interesting as if you enjoy playing tanks, you dont need to reroll 5 different classes to try all the tank specs unless you really want to lol. Can be a paladin one month and a Guardian the next. Realistically for the alt-o-holics.. you only need to make 8 characters unless class and race is that personally significant to the player This is true, but if you don't like the "heavy duty shield tank" then you won't like any of the classes within the tank archetype. And this is one of the problems I'm concerned about. Maybe Fighter+Tank will be able to tank some, but it will never be a Tank you main in PvE (as far as I know). Having different types of tanks and mechanics for tanks to play with is what creates variety in gameplay. Not small changes to the same abilities.
Noaani wrote: » We're not really talking about 64 true classes, we're talking about eight classes with 64 variants... There isn't as much variance between the 64 classes as you might expect. It's not like there are 64 different versions of... radically different classes.[3] – Jeffrey Bard
Noaani wrote: » The minute someone says anything that is contrary to the above quote, we can freely dismiss it. However, that has not happened as yet.
