Favorite and least favorite mechanics to face in PvP

When making a multiplayer game it's important to think about mechanics that are fun to use, but also fun to play against.

With that in mind I'd like you to list the mechanics you love to play against, as well as mechanics you hate to play against.

I'll start. I love to play against positional-based abilities and terrain-based CC. For example, abilities that have different effects depending on if the target is facing towards you or away from you. For terrain-based CC, this is something quite common in games like LoL but rarely seen outside of it, where you have some kind of knockback ability and if you knock someone into a wall, they get stunned.

I hate playing against any kind of invisibility or stealth, especially when there's no visual indicator that someone is invisible near you.

That's it for me, so what are YOUR favorite and least favorite game mechanics?

DISCLAIMER: I am NOT making this thread as a member of Intrepid Studios and nothing in this thread is meant to provide feedback to the developers. This is purely for fun and an interesting discussion point.

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Ruerik

What I do like, is group cohesion paying off, where the sum of the parts matter, not just the collection of individual player skill. Things like separating, or debuffing the healer right before bursting down a different enemy dps. Things like faking out which enemy we are going to burst drawing protective resources away from the real target.

What I dont like is gameplay focused solely on just chain stunning the enemy until it is dead. PvP designed around hard CC is just bad.

My multiplayer pvp experience began in gw1 when the game launched, and I stayed there for years because of how great the team based pvp experience was. Hard stuns existed, (like 3s or 4s knockdowns), but they were very expensive, and spamming them exhausted the character, removing them from the fight for a minute. The team play relied on 1 or more characters setting up or pressuring specific things so the rest of the team could score a kill.

GW1 pvp has never been topped in group play pvp in almost the 20 years since its been around (2005 I think???) I look back on those years the game was alive and wish any game would even try to approach that level of group play.
Dont look at GW2, GW2 pvp is a dumpster fire that is on trash and smells bad.

Trickster

I like to play as stealth mage or archer... In general classes that can embush the target first and apply CC's... Well something similar Daggerspell from Archeage

George_Black

Least fav mech: global cooldown on all skills. Makes combat in small scale or duels a repetition of defence/power-up rotation, followed by burst settup rotation.
Which means that there aren't realy class/weapon playstyles in PvP, just the same rotation pattern with different flashy colours across all classes. There is no action and reaction, no strategy against different opponents, no situational skill usage.

It also males largescale PvP a blind, no-need-to-pick-targets zergfest of AoE button mashing, whether heals, CCs or dmg, whilst following the leader.

Favourite mechanics:
Counter attacks. Encountered only in Tera Online.
There was an ability on the Warrior class that when used while your opponent was about to land a hit with a direct attack, you could interrupt and stun them.
You couldnt spam counter attack and wait to turn the tables on your enemy.
If you used it against the wrong types of strikes it wouldnt work and you'd put the counter atk skill on cooldown (a big waste).

Such designs make you pay attention and when executed correctly offer big payout, both in gameplay and in satisfaction.

Cyridius

It's a lot easier to identify things you don't like vs. things that you do. So I'll start with things I don't like;

1. Stealth. Whether it's been in Dark Age of Camelot, or WoW, or anything in between, it's been a shit mechanic for PvP. It has zero real counterplay. Someone sits around in stealth until they find someone they can gank and burst down easily - usually someone who's relatively undergeared compared to them. The amount of work involved in trying to proactively deal with stealthed enemies isn't fun, it's disproportionate, and it's unrewarding. This has been universal across every game with stealth in PvP. Stealth generally isn't an issue in group PvP environments because the risk of a stealthed character attacking someone is much higher unless they plan ahead properly with their own friends/allies, and in that case a successful attack by a stealthed character is something that requires skill and coordination, which is good. But most PvP in this game is going to be small scale, realistically, with large group PvP being relegated to particular situations. So it has been in games like ArcheAge. I'd rather characters be designed to have a toolkit that's pretty generally useful and contributes to fighting actively in a team setting (as opposed to something vague like "scouting" as your contribution to the team), than a toolkit which in reality is orientated around solo ganking - which is what stealth classes ultimately end up being reduced to.

2. Crowd control. CC is good because it stops another thing I dislike, which is endless kiting. But getting chain-CC'd means that there's no counterplay and the encounter is solved before you press any buttons - it's easily resolved by having cleanse effects also give you a buff that stops you from being CC'd by another player again for a few seconds, at least giving you time to CC them back or run away.

I hate those two dynamics roughly equally.

Things I like;

1. Gap closers and gap makers. Being able to leap/teleport/whatever to an enemy for a melee class, and away as a ranged class, is good. It creates a sense of dynamism to the combat that feels engaging, and it's satisfying for players to have useful mobility options that have to be used carefully and with awareness of your surroundings.

RocketFarmer

Could say that CC, kiting and stealth are by their nature anti-PVP in that they seek to take away from the actions of the other player. Perhaps if the design increases the difficulty of pulling these actions off or offered real risks in failure, then it would be better.

For CC, since that’s a broad category where many different things cause the CC, the risk would need to match it. Most games have just relied on cooldowns and giving the opponent options for CC cleansing.

For stealth, design needs to provide uncertainty for the stealthy character to know the other players can’t see them. Meaning they are either walking into a target completely unnoticed or just crouching in plain sight, making them an easy target. Also think stealth in the open without any cause for stealth is just silly. Perhaps if everyone is in first person view and you were attempting to reduce the noise of an approach to get a jump on the character, then that would be OK, but this is a third person POV game.

Most obvious solution for kiting is the risk of tripping, slipping and falling. And when falling there should be a good likelihood you drop your weapon or worst case, damage it depending on the type. Nothing worse than tripping and having your quiver empty out on the ground.

Ehsizer

Specific mechanics doesn't so matter, PvP should be just 50\50 skill\gear balanced.

But what I realy hate from global point of view:
- All types of Equalized PvP (equalizing of characters stats/gear), including equalized arenas
- Battle pets (class skill-based summons is fine)
- Ability to use 20 different consumable buffs like food or alchemy to strengthen in PvP (consumables except of HP/MP potions should be only PvE-oriented)
- And the worst one: ability to disable PvP on character-level (click button = you are not available to be attacked) and peace zones without possibility to PvP

KingDDD

I really enjoy fighting stealthers in games where there's some counter play to it. nothing as fun as killing a pos 1 riki with a well placed sentry ward.

Depraved

KingDDD wrote: »

I really enjoy fighting stealthers in games where there's some counter play to it. nothing as fun as killing a pos 1 riki with a well placed sentry ward.

damn someone has dota ptsd 💀

Cyridius

KingDDD wrote: »

I really enjoy fighting stealthers in games where there's some counter play to it. nothing as fun as killing a pos 1 riki with a well placed sentry ward.

That works really well in games like Dota 2 because the arena is small and defined, in MMOs it's just a shiftfest. I think if invisible enemies was something people had to deal with regularly in PvE it might not be so bad because preparing for invisibility would then become part of the routine, so ganking wouldn't be so easy to do - but that in of itself can be horrific PvE gameplay. Really would rather stealth be designed for PvE and then have players have some sort of truesight where they can see invisible enemies within X meters of their position, and just make stealth classes useful outside of being stealthy for PvP.

Chonkers1

Unenjoyable mechanics:
1. cc chains, no counterplay, no interaction, anticlimactic
2. insane burst damage, limited to no counterplay, circumvents any mechanic that takes time, anticlimactic
Enjoyable:
1. lots of health points, lots of counterplay, possibly the most room for interactions, satisfying, more time for interaction, rich in fantasy
2. buffs, room for counterplay, predictable interaction, rewarding of interaction, synergy, combo potential, rewards teamwork
Not inherently problematic:
1. Stealth, can generally lead to a favorable initiation, if paired with problematic mechanics then it may be annoying, thematic, can be climactic
2. Healing, can create room for interaction, if done wrong will turn the game into a cc burst fest, counter mechanics like stacking buffs, debuffs, mana burn, and anti-healing make healing more interactive, healing should remain somewhat restricted

KingDDD

Cyridius wrote: »

KingDDD wrote: »

I really enjoy fighting stealthers in games where there's some counter play to it. nothing as fun as killing a pos 1 riki with a well placed sentry ward.

That works really well in games like Dota 2 because the arena is small and defined, in MMOs it's just a shiftfest. I think if invisible enemies was something people had to deal with regularly in PvE it might not be so bad because preparing for invisibility would then become part of the routine, so ganking wouldn't be so easy to do - but that in of itself can be horrific PvE gameplay. Really would rather stealth be designed for PvE and then have players have some sort of truesight where they can see invisible enemies within X meters of their position, and just make stealth classes useful outside of being stealthy for PvP.

You are very right about MOBAs being a set arena vs MMOs being completely open.

I've always thought the best way to handle stealth in open world pvp is to have multiple tiers of stealth based on the class, spec, and damage potential of the stealther. It needs to be easy enough to see at the low end of the stealth spectrum, but if a player chooses to invest in only stealth it should be countered by someone less invested to disincentivize full dedication to stealth.

Hopefully ashes let's stealthers be fun for those that like that gameplay, but not oppressively unfun for the rest of us. No one wants to see the opening from stealth take 50% + add a hard stun.

Dryadez

Some games do CC correctly. You should NEVER be able to stunlock someone or make them lose control of their character from 100% to 50% and below hp. Not how combat should work. They should be short lived, momentary inconveniences that can have great rewards when used correctly and strategically.

Example if my stun lasts 2 seconds and has a 45 second coldown, I won't be so keen on using it to open up on an enemy. I may safe it to use as an interupt or way of getting off a quick heal. Now.. if my stun lasts 3 seconds and has no cooldown but the DR mechanic and then i have another stun that lasts 6 seconds on a 30 second cooldown and I have a disorientate that lasts 9 seconds, an interupt with a 10 sec cd and a 3 second school lockout AND another disorientate that lasts 4 seconds.............. welcome to world of warcraft i just explained to you pvp rogue style. Where if your opponent can fight back, you did something wrong because you can always just poof vanish and start it all over again.

Guild wars 2 did this correctly. I don't recall any stun or fear lasting more than a couple seconds and often they had super long cooldowns and could be negated or broken quite easily. Binds and slows were rare and slows often aoe oriented so you could walk out of them and they had to be properly placed.

But imagine a 9 second slow, off cooldown, low mana cost and no DR... topple that with a 9 second fear off cooldown, oh and a 2 second disorientate oh and a aoe insta cast fear just incase... OH AND A PET THAT CAN DISORIENTATE YOU 9 SECONDS NO COOLDOWN... Hello world of warcraft warlock.

Again CC needs to be EXTREMELY rare or VERY short lived. Even typing the stuff above got me agitated, I don't play anymore but even typing it i have to say to myself... what were those thunder heads thinking? How does that get through testing stages?

KingDDD

Dryadez wrote: »

Some games do CC correctly. You should NEVER be able to stunlock someone or make them lose control of their character from 100% to 50% and below hp. Not how combat should work. They should be short lived, momentary inconveniences that can have great rewards when used correctly and strategically.

Example if my stun lasts 2 seconds and has a 45 second coldown, I won't be so keen on using it to open up on an enemy. I may safe it to use as an interupt or way of getting off a quick heal. Now.. if my stun lasts 3 seconds and has no cooldown but the DR mechanic and then i have another stun that lasts 6 seconds on a 30 second cooldown and I have a disorientate that lasts 9 seconds, an interupt with a 10 sec cd and a 3 second school lockout AND another disorientate that lasts 4 seconds.............. welcome to world of warcraft i just explained to you pvp rogue style. Where if your opponent can fight back, you did something wrong because you can always just poof vanish and start it all over again.

Guild wars 2 did this correctly. I don't recall any stun or fear lasting more than a couple seconds and often they had super long cooldowns and could be negated or broken quite easily. Binds and slows were rare and slows often aoe oriented so you could walk out of them and they had to be properly placed.

But imagine a 9 second slow, off cooldown, low mana cost and no DR... topple that with a 9 second fear off cooldown, oh and a 2 second disorientate oh and a aoe insta cast fear just incase... OH AND A PET THAT CAN DISORIENTATE YOU 9 SECONDS NO COOLDOWN... Hello world of warcraft warlock.

Again CC needs to be EXTREMELY rare or VERY short lived. Even typing the stuff above got me agitated, I don't play anymore but even typing it i have to say to myself... what were those thunder heads thinking? How does that get through testing stages?

Id disagree.

Without cc chains the game turns into burst or spam. Games like Warhammer online suffer immensely from the way they have cc immunity and very little access to hard cc.

Id rather see multiple ways for individuals and classes to cleanse cc. More things like skull of impending doom and blessing of protection. Bards, clerics, summoners, and tanks should have saves to help alleviate the cc chains outside of the typical 2min cc cleanse.

akabear

Mechanics enjoy:

Line of Sight
- ability to use terrain to dodge / hide (especially in sieges, and ravine fighting)
- clear line of sight to shoot / fire as a requirement

Height Advantage
- elevation giving further missile range and increased power

Terrain
- terrain that actually can permit a player to hide such as tall grasses or shrubs but still allow a player to see out.

Front vs Back Damage
- like the idea that your position of attack matters ie frontal attack less powerful than a back attack (mob or player)

Darkness
- true dark areas for hiding

Environmental Impact
- cold spells on ice enhanced, cold spells on hot surfaces reduced
- hot spells on ice or water surfaces reduced, hot spells on hot surfaces enhanced

Rag doll physics
- especially enjoy rag doll effects in pvp and sometimes to taunt a player further by moving their dead character
-
Mechanics not so keen on:

Character outfits / gear
- outfits and/or gear that do not cannot readily identify level / ability

Spells / Missile path
- lobbed or straight missiles are ok, but those that bend round obstacles or through them, not so keen.

Heal pots
- ability to spam heal pots faster than incoming damage

Enigmatic Sage

Enjoy

- Depth
- Physics
- Awareness
- Skill
- Genuine Strategy and Tactical
- High Difficulty

Dislike
- button mashing
- sponge combat
- burst dependency
- hard CC spam
- easy game play

I do not waste my time with a lot of video games these days to be honest. I know what I like and what I dont. I'm not someone who just games for the sake of gaming. They're either too easy or the skill cap ceiling is too low that I outpace it quite quickly. Easy is not fun, it's boring and remedial for someone like me. I know myself quite well and know how fast I can get bored of video games if they're not engaging or challenging enough. Player vs Player can have fluctuating engagements, no surprise there but there's a significant difference when it comes to a feeling of accomplishment. Knowing you won because of your skill vs a game making everyone feel like winners is two different things completely. I would rather lose because of my personal skill issue vs some bullshit design making me feel like a winner.

Dryadez

KingDDD wrote: »

Dryadez wrote: »

Some games do CC correctly. You should NEVER be able to stunlock someone or make them lose control of their character from 100% to 50% and below hp. Not how combat should work. They should be short lived, momentary inconveniences that can have great rewards when used correctly and strategically.

Example if my stun lasts 2 seconds and has a 45 second coldown, I won't be so keen on using it to open up on an enemy. I may safe it to use as an interupt or way of getting off a quick heal. Now.. if my stun lasts 3 seconds and has no cooldown but the DR mechanic and then i have another stun that lasts 6 seconds on a 30 second cooldown and I have a disorientate that lasts 9 seconds, an interupt with a 10 sec cd and a 3 second school lockout AND another disorientate that lasts 4 seconds.............. welcome to world of warcraft i just explained to you pvp rogue style. Where if your opponent can fight back, you did something wrong because you can always just poof vanish and start it all over again.

Guild wars 2 did this correctly. I don't recall any stun or fear lasting more than a couple seconds and often they had super long cooldowns and could be negated or broken quite easily. Binds and slows were rare and slows often aoe oriented so you could walk out of them and they had to be properly placed.

But imagine a 9 second slow, off cooldown, low mana cost and no DR... topple that with a 9 second fear off cooldown, oh and a 2 second disorientate oh and a aoe insta cast fear just incase... OH AND A PET THAT CAN DISORIENTATE YOU 9 SECONDS NO COOLDOWN... Hello world of warcraft warlock.

Again CC needs to be EXTREMELY rare or VERY short lived. Even typing the stuff above got me agitated, I don't play anymore but even typing it i have to say to myself... what were those thunder heads thinking? How does that get through testing stages?

Id disagree.

Without cc chains the game turns into burst or spam. Games like Warhammer online suffer immensely from the way they have cc immunity and very little access to hard cc.

Id rather see multiple ways for individuals and classes to cleanse cc. More things like skull of impending doom and blessing of protection. Bards, clerics, summoners, and tanks should have saves to help alleviate the cc chains outside of the typical 2min cc cleanse.

Yes but guild wars 2 did it right imo, i don't mind CC being integrated and it will obviously always be HUGE even if its a 2 second stun.. 2 seconds in pvp is a lifetime. Games that go into the 5+ second range are out of control. Things like knockdowns and pushback are also great options. It doesn't always have to be about chaining CC just rather actually having to use it correctly. Trinkets in WoW shouldof always had a 45 sec cd, 2 mins in a game run and controlled by CC spam is inexcusable, as some classes have no options to break or otherwise grant immunity to CC.

I played swtor and CC was out of control, alot of pvpers quit at the beginning due to it being so unapologetically toxic. I played a few rounds of pvp, kept dying while stunlocked or incapacitated and instantly uninstalled and unsubbed. Never looked back, as did most of their population apparently. There is a sweet middleground that guild wars 2 perfected and should be looked at for inspiration.

Solvryn

I find that I like
-Varied Damage, I really love Windfury from WoW in terms of that it was not bursty but it was a constant barrage of damage. Same applies for Tornadoes in Diablo.
-Survivability
-Determinism
-A use of skills, angles, precision, positioning etc always makes a fight better

I dislike
-output rng, Active defensives done well will always be superior.
-skill bloat, more skills do not mean there’s more decisions, statistics will always make abilities definitive

Chocometeor

I really like:
stealth pvp and preperation - different buffs - potions (maybe a stealth detect potion before fighting another Stealth Class)
I also really like a good use of Ultimate Skillshots that deal a high amout of Damage but you have to use it at the right moment with a good aim.

I dislike: (I played ff14 pvp it was really bad)
Stacking stuns: in ff14 stuns will stack and at some point you cant even do anything until you die because there are too many stuns in a row.

Too many ways to heal up: I really hate how in wow every single class has somekind of recovery or heal nowadays - you think you nearly killed your opponent? no! he has 17 ways to heal up to full health again.
was really annoying and made fights way too long.

Thokan

Me likey:

Stealth.
The ability to stealth is fun and adds to excitement and tension in Open World PvP. To make it fun and fair you need:
A) Classes that can move around in stealth freely.

Class/es with the ability to track, detecting there are possible stealthed characters in the same map
C) All classes having the ability to Search/Detect and pop people out of stealth nearby.

Few things are more exciting than standing on your World PvP rock waiting for the enemy, having a suspicion, popping Search and revealing the enemies who slowly tried to sneak up on you. Thats fun.

Reactive "skillful" gameplay.
I loved playing the Conqueror in Age of Conan. In PvE it was like any other soldier class. You stand still and do combos. But the class had some abilities that made it very reactive and fun to play in PvP. There was for instance and ability that you popped and halved the next incoming damage. That meant you had a great reactive payout if you could read the enemy classes and knew when a big nuke cast was coming. Felt great when you managed to do it, sending those tryhard DPSers crying.

High Mobility
Not backflips and barrel rolls for days, but its a lot more fun if the combat is moving. Charges, blinks and whatnot sounds a lot more fun than just two balls AoEing eachother.

Me no likey:

Stunlocks.
Noone likes getting stunlocks. I like MMO tab combat where you got short CCs, CC immunities and medium long cooldowns. In my mind CCs shouldnt be the opening or the main way to open up to deal damage, but to deny the enemy, obstructing, interrupting combos and build-ups et cetera.

Dont mind stuns, knockbacks, traps at all, but lesser ranged and AoE the better. The more up close and personal the better, where you got options to interrupt et cetera. For instance, you charging the ranger and getting rooted in a trap is all on you. A mage AoE stunning half the party from a range for 10 secs is just boring and lame.

Pulls are a big no, no. God, imagine how annoying if the enemy just pulls you into their ball and annihilates you, without any chance. How lame.

RazThemun

I prefer combat that is actually driven by the players wits in outperforming the other. Thinking on how to attack, when to attack, which terrain will prove advantageous in downing them or taking the objective.

One shot mechanics, stealthing in and out without being able to be attacked, etc.... I do not see as good gameplay.... Nor do I see someone being in plate and unable to be hurt good gameplay.

If I attack someone, I expect it to be a duel that can last minutes at a time! Not a scenario of run by them and kill them in 20 seconds to then run off to the next person... might as well just do pve and kill npc at that point.

EVERY CLASS should be a THREAT to EVERY CLASS. Maybe not balanced per-se, but each class should have abilities that makes any class kind of worried that their opponent may use those abilities. Making it a challenging fight. None of this "Warrior can just go crush a Monk, Mage can melt a Hunter in 2 seconds, Paladins can't really attack but just defend for hours" type rubbish.

We have weapons and abilities.... let there be some actual thought in how they will interact with each other and create fun gameplay.

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