I really enjoy fighting stealthers in games where there's some counter play to it. nothing as fun as killing a pos 1 riki with a well placed sentry ward.
That works really well in games like Dota 2 because the arena is small and defined, in MMOs it's just a shiftfest. I think if invisible enemies was something people had to deal with regularly in PvE it might not be so bad because preparing for invisibility would then become part of the routine, so ganking wouldn't be so easy to do - but that in of itself can be horrific PvE gameplay. Really would rather stealth be designed for PvE and then have players have some sort of truesight where they can see invisible enemies within X meters of their position, and just make stealth classes useful outside of being stealthy for PvP.
You are very right about MOBAs being a set arena vs MMOs being completely open.
I've always thought the best way to handle stealth in open world pvp is to have multiple tiers of stealth based on the class, spec, and damage potential of the stealther. It needs to be easy enough to see at the low end of the stealth spectrum, but if a player chooses to invest in only stealth it should be countered by someone less invested to disincentivize full dedication to stealth.
Hopefully ashes let's stealthers be fun for those that like that gameplay, but not oppressively unfun for the rest of us. No one wants to see the opening from stealth take 50% + add a hard stun.
Some games do CC correctly. You should NEVER be able to stunlock someone or make them lose control of their character from 100% to 50% and below hp. Not how combat should work. They should be short lived, momentary inconveniences that can have great rewards when used correctly and strategically.
Example if my stun lasts 2 seconds and has a 45 second coldown, I won't be so keen on using it to open up on an enemy. I may safe it to use as an interupt or way of getting off a quick heal. Now.. if my stun lasts 3 seconds and has no cooldown but the DR mechanic and then i have another stun that lasts 6 seconds on a 30 second cooldown and I have a disorientate that lasts 9 seconds, an interupt with a 10 sec cd and a 3 second school lockout AND another disorientate that lasts 4 seconds.............. welcome to world of warcraft i just explained to you pvp rogue style. Where if your opponent can fight back, you did something wrong because you can always just poof vanish and start it all over again.
Guild wars 2 did this correctly. I don't recall any stun or fear lasting more than a couple seconds and often they had super long cooldowns and could be negated or broken quite easily. Binds and slows were rare and slows often aoe oriented so you could walk out of them and they had to be properly placed.
But imagine a 9 second slow, off cooldown, low mana cost and no DR... topple that with a 9 second fear off cooldown, oh and a 2 second disorientate oh and a aoe insta cast fear just incase... OH AND A PET THAT CAN DISORIENTATE YOU 9 SECONDS NO COOLDOWN... Hello world of warcraft warlock.
Again CC needs to be EXTREMELY rare or VERY short lived. Even typing the stuff above got me agitated, I don't play anymore but even typing it i have to say to myself... what were those thunder heads thinking? How does that get through testing stages?
Some games do CC correctly. You should NEVER be able to stunlock someone or make them lose control of their character from 100% to 50% and below hp. Not how combat should work. They should be short lived, momentary inconveniences that can have great rewards when used correctly and strategically.
Example if my stun lasts 2 seconds and has a 45 second coldown, I won't be so keen on using it to open up on an enemy. I may safe it to use as an interupt or way of getting off a quick heal. Now.. if my stun lasts 3 seconds and has no cooldown but the DR mechanic and then i have another stun that lasts 6 seconds on a 30 second cooldown and I have a disorientate that lasts 9 seconds, an interupt with a 10 sec cd and a 3 second school lockout AND another disorientate that lasts 4 seconds.............. welcome to world of warcraft i just explained to you pvp rogue style. Where if your opponent can fight back, you did something wrong because you can always just poof vanish and start it all over again.
Guild wars 2 did this correctly. I don't recall any stun or fear lasting more than a couple seconds and often they had super long cooldowns and could be negated or broken quite easily. Binds and slows were rare and slows often aoe oriented so you could walk out of them and they had to be properly placed.
But imagine a 9 second slow, off cooldown, low mana cost and no DR... topple that with a 9 second fear off cooldown, oh and a 2 second disorientate oh and a aoe insta cast fear just incase... OH AND A PET THAT CAN DISORIENTATE YOU 9 SECONDS NO COOLDOWN... Hello world of warcraft warlock.
Again CC needs to be EXTREMELY rare or VERY short lived. Even typing the stuff above got me agitated, I don't play anymore but even typing it i have to say to myself... what were those thunder heads thinking? How does that get through testing stages?
Id disagree.
Without cc chains the game turns into burst or spam. Games like Warhammer online suffer immensely from the way they have cc immunity and very little access to hard cc.
Id rather see multiple ways for individuals and classes to cleanse cc. More things like skull of impending doom and blessing of protection. Bards, clerics, summoners, and tanks should have saves to help alleviate the cc chains outside of the typical 2min cc cleanse.
0
Options
akabearMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited December 2023
Mechanics enjoy:
Line of Sight
- ability to use terrain to dodge / hide (especially in sieges, and ravine fighting)
- clear line of sight to shoot / fire as a requirement
Height Advantage
- elevation giving further missile range and increased power
Terrain
- terrain that actually can permit a player to hide such as tall grasses or shrubs but still allow a player to see out.
Front vs Back Damage
- like the idea that your position of attack matters ie frontal attack less powerful than a back attack (mob or player)
Darkness
- true dark areas for hiding
Environmental Impact
- cold spells on ice enhanced, cold spells on hot surfaces reduced
- hot spells on ice or water surfaces reduced, hot spells on hot surfaces enhanced
Rag doll physics
- especially enjoy rag doll effects in pvp and sometimes to taunt a player further by moving their dead character
-
Mechanics not so keen on:
Character outfits / gear
- outfits and/or gear that do not cannot readily identify level / ability
Spells / Missile path
- lobbed or straight missiles are ok, but those that bend round obstacles or through them, not so keen.
Heal pots
- ability to spam heal pots faster than incoming damage
- Depth
- Physics
- Awareness
- Skill
- Genuine Strategy and Tactical
- High Difficulty
Dislike
- button mashing
- sponge combat
- burst dependency
- hard CC spam
- easy game play
I do not waste my time with a lot of video games these days to be honest. I know what I like and what I dont. I'm not someone who just games for the sake of gaming. They're either too easy or the skill cap ceiling is too low that I outpace it quite quickly. Easy is not fun, it's boring and remedial for someone like me. I know myself quite well and know how fast I can get bored of video games if they're not engaging or challenging enough. Player vs Player can have fluctuating engagements, no surprise there but there's a significant difference when it comes to a feeling of accomplishment. Knowing you won because of your skill vs a game making everyone feel like winners is two different things completely. I would rather lose because of my personal skill issue vs some bullshit design making me feel like a winner.
Some games do CC correctly. You should NEVER be able to stunlock someone or make them lose control of their character from 100% to 50% and below hp. Not how combat should work. They should be short lived, momentary inconveniences that can have great rewards when used correctly and strategically.
Example if my stun lasts 2 seconds and has a 45 second coldown, I won't be so keen on using it to open up on an enemy. I may safe it to use as an interupt or way of getting off a quick heal. Now.. if my stun lasts 3 seconds and has no cooldown but the DR mechanic and then i have another stun that lasts 6 seconds on a 30 second cooldown and I have a disorientate that lasts 9 seconds, an interupt with a 10 sec cd and a 3 second school lockout AND another disorientate that lasts 4 seconds.............. welcome to world of warcraft i just explained to you pvp rogue style. Where if your opponent can fight back, you did something wrong because you can always just poof vanish and start it all over again.
Guild wars 2 did this correctly. I don't recall any stun or fear lasting more than a couple seconds and often they had super long cooldowns and could be negated or broken quite easily. Binds and slows were rare and slows often aoe oriented so you could walk out of them and they had to be properly placed.
But imagine a 9 second slow, off cooldown, low mana cost and no DR... topple that with a 9 second fear off cooldown, oh and a 2 second disorientate oh and a aoe insta cast fear just incase... OH AND A PET THAT CAN DISORIENTATE YOU 9 SECONDS NO COOLDOWN... Hello world of warcraft warlock.
Again CC needs to be EXTREMELY rare or VERY short lived. Even typing the stuff above got me agitated, I don't play anymore but even typing it i have to say to myself... what were those thunder heads thinking? How does that get through testing stages?
Id disagree.
Without cc chains the game turns into burst or spam. Games like Warhammer online suffer immensely from the way they have cc immunity and very little access to hard cc.
Id rather see multiple ways for individuals and classes to cleanse cc. More things like skull of impending doom and blessing of protection. Bards, clerics, summoners, and tanks should have saves to help alleviate the cc chains outside of the typical 2min cc cleanse.
Yes but guild wars 2 did it right imo, i don't mind CC being integrated and it will obviously always be HUGE even if its a 2 second stun.. 2 seconds in pvp is a lifetime. Games that go into the 5+ second range are out of control. Things like knockdowns and pushback are also great options. It doesn't always have to be about chaining CC just rather actually having to use it correctly. Trinkets in WoW shouldof always had a 45 sec cd, 2 mins in a game run and controlled by CC spam is inexcusable, as some classes have no options to break or otherwise grant immunity to CC.
I played swtor and CC was out of control, alot of pvpers quit at the beginning due to it being so unapologetically toxic. I played a few rounds of pvp, kept dying while stunlocked or incapacitated and instantly uninstalled and unsubbed. Never looked back, as did most of their population apparently. There is a sweet middleground that guild wars 2 perfected and should be looked at for inspiration.
I find that I like
-Varied Damage, I really love Windfury from WoW in terms of that it was not bursty but it was a constant barrage of damage. Same applies for Tornadoes in Diablo.
-Survivability
-Determinism
-A use of skills, angles, precision, positioning etc always makes a fight better
I dislike
-output rng, Active defensives done well will always be superior.
-skill bloat, more skills do not mean there’s more decisions, statistics will always make abilities definitive
I really like:
stealth pvp and preperation - different buffs - potions (maybe a stealth detect potion before fighting another Stealth Class)
I also really like a good use of Ultimate Skillshots that deal a high amout of Damage but you have to use it at the right moment with a good aim.
I dislike: (I played ff14 pvp it was really bad)
Stacking stuns: in ff14 stuns will stack and at some point you cant even do anything until you die because there are too many stuns in a row.
Too many ways to heal up: I really hate how in wow every single class has somekind of recovery or heal nowadays - you think you nearly killed your opponent? no! he has 17 ways to heal up to full health again.
was really annoying and made fights way too long.
Stealth.
The ability to stealth is fun and adds to excitement and tension in Open World PvP. To make it fun and fair you need:
A) Classes that can move around in stealth freely. Class/es with the ability to track, detecting there are possible stealthed characters in the same map
C) All classes having the ability to Search/Detect and pop people out of stealth nearby.
Few things are more exciting than standing on your World PvP rock waiting for the enemy, having a suspicion, popping Search and revealing the enemies who slowly tried to sneak up on you. Thats fun.
Reactive "skillful" gameplay.
I loved playing the Conqueror in Age of Conan. In PvE it was like any other soldier class. You stand still and do combos. But the class had some abilities that made it very reactive and fun to play in PvP. There was for instance and ability that you popped and halved the next incoming damage. That meant you had a great reactive payout if you could read the enemy classes and knew when a big nuke cast was coming. Felt great when you managed to do it, sending those tryhard DPSers crying.
High Mobility
Not backflips and barrel rolls for days, but its a lot more fun if the combat is moving. Charges, blinks and whatnot sounds a lot more fun than just two balls AoEing eachother.
Me no likey:
Stunlocks.
Noone likes getting stunlocks. I like MMO tab combat where you got short CCs, CC immunities and medium long cooldowns. In my mind CCs shouldnt be the opening or the main way to open up to deal damage, but to deny the enemy, obstructing, interrupting combos and build-ups et cetera.
Dont mind stuns, knockbacks, traps at all, but lesser ranged and AoE the better. The more up close and personal the better, where you got options to interrupt et cetera. For instance, you charging the ranger and getting rooted in a trap is all on you. A mage AoE stunning half the party from a range for 10 secs is just boring and lame.
Pulls are a big no, no. God, imagine how annoying if the enemy just pulls you into their ball and annihilates you, without any chance. How lame.
I prefer combat that is actually driven by the players wits in outperforming the other. Thinking on how to attack, when to attack, which terrain will prove advantageous in downing them or taking the objective.
One shot mechanics, stealthing in and out without being able to be attacked, etc.... I do not see as good gameplay.... Nor do I see someone being in plate and unable to be hurt good gameplay.
If I attack someone, I expect it to be a duel that can last minutes at a time! Not a scenario of run by them and kill them in 20 seconds to then run off to the next person... might as well just do pve and kill npc at that point.
EVERY CLASS should be a THREAT to EVERY CLASS. Maybe not balanced per-se, but each class should have abilities that makes any class kind of worried that their opponent may use those abilities. Making it a challenging fight. None of this "Warrior can just go crush a Monk, Mage can melt a Hunter in 2 seconds, Paladins can't really attack but just defend for hours" type rubbish.
We have weapons and abilities.... let there be some actual thought in how they will interact with each other and create fun gameplay.
Hate very long fear effects (victim running away in the directly opposite direction from the attacker w/o being able to do anything).
Fear skills essentially force one to move in generally irrelevant ways, as opposed to incapacitation (of some sort) in place -- yeah, that sucks as a mechanic.
Inevitably everyone displays fear at certain points in-game: running away from a larger group or an opponent against which you'd prove ill-equipped, or periodically dashing for some kind of safety to recuperate.
So hey! No need to add it as a skill, it's already going to be in the game!
x0x0
Casually Serious.
LFG: Open World, tight knit coordination, multiple roles, will travel.
DAoC is the setting. Playing an Ab faction, we were always out numbered. We learned to sick and move. Never staying in one place too long. We would attack keeps and run till we had a mess coming after us. Often getting a force 4 to 6 times larger then we could every gather.
Once we had a force hunting us that was nothing we could take on. We would execute the tactics we planned. We would leave a small force to defend a keep while the bulk of our force would move to a near by keep and stay hidden and waiting. When the large force went to retake the keep we left a small contingent to defend. We would take the keep that we were hiding near by at.
The large force in short order would take back the keep and see the message that a near by keep was being seiged. Every AoE class we had would stay ducked down and hiding at the top of the stairs by the NPC you needed to kill to reclaim the keep.
The opposing force after a quick win would come flooding, unthinking come to reclaim the keep we were hiding in wait. With a few defenders at the gate of the keep. As the gate came down, they would chase the defenders up the stairs.
As the defenders came running into the room. We would start AoEing. Our small army of 40 to 50 players would take out 200+ players within 2 to 3 min.
The machinic I miss is tactics and skills that small groups could use to take out a superior forces. I hope Ashes has this. I have to admit this is a feeling I have been chasing for 20 years.
@nanfoodle i think every faction did the aoe tactics like that as it was meta. Especially on the doors with rams and near the boss rooms for the castles and relic keeps. There were lots of servers where Albion Realm outnumbered the Hibernians and Midguard haha. Such a great game (especially for its time), frontier RvR was great
Darkness falls got interesting past the cross roads with multiple raid groups from different realms colliding.
@nanfoodle i think every faction did the aoe tactics like that as it was meta. Especially on the doors with rams and near the boss rooms for the castles and relic keeps. There were lots of servers where Albion Realm outnumbered the Hibernians and Midguard haha. Such a great game (especially for its time), frontier RvR was great
Darkness falls got interesting past the cross roads with multiple raid groups from different realms colliding.
My point is more about PvP games have not given us tools to deal with ball groups since DAoC. ESO had a set that did but quickly got nerfed into the ground. I hope Ashes gives us tools to do just that, small groups with skills and tactics, to take out ball groups.
@nanfoodle i think every faction did the aoe tactics like that as it was meta. Especially on the doors with rams and near the boss rooms for the castles and relic keeps. There were lots of servers where Albion Realm outnumbered the Hibernians and Midguard haha. Such a great game (especially for its time), frontier RvR was great
Darkness falls got interesting past the cross roads with multiple raid groups from different realms colliding.
My point is more about PvP games have not given us tools to deal with ball groups since DAoC. ESO had a set that did but quickly got nerfed into the ground. I hope Ashes gives us tools to do just that, small groups with skills and tactics, to take out ball groups.
player collision and flagging systems other than resource management and some physics.
@nanfoodle i think every faction did the aoe tactics like that as it was meta. Especially on the doors with rams and near the boss rooms for the castles and relic keeps. There were lots of servers where Albion Realm outnumbered the Hibernians and Midguard haha. Such a great game (especially for its time), frontier RvR was great
Darkness falls got interesting past the cross roads with multiple raid groups from different realms colliding.
My point is more about PvP games have not given us tools to deal with ball groups since DAoC. ESO had a set that did but quickly got nerfed into the ground. I hope Ashes gives us tools to do just that, small groups with skills and tactics, to take out ball groups.
player collision and flagging systems other than resource management and some physics.
None of what you mentioned helps deal with Ball Groups. Set bonis that makes AoE do more damage the larager the group you hit. Larger a group is, the larger number of people opposing armies AoE can hit. CC's that break up a Ball Groups. Things like that are what's needed.
@nanfoodle i think every faction did the aoe tactics like that as it was meta. Especially on the doors with rams and near the boss rooms for the castles and relic keeps. There were lots of servers where Albion Realm outnumbered the Hibernians and Midguard haha. Such a great game (especially for its time), frontier RvR was great
Darkness falls got interesting past the cross roads with multiple raid groups from different realms colliding.
My point is more about PvP games have not given us tools to deal with ball groups since DAoC. ESO had a set that did but quickly got nerfed into the ground. I hope Ashes gives us tools to do just that, small groups with skills and tactics, to take out ball groups.
player collision and flagging systems other than resource management and some physics.
None of what you mentioned helps deal with Ball Groups. Set bonis that makes AoE do more damage the larager the group you hit. Larger a group is, the larger number of people opposing armies AoE can hit. CC's that break up a Ball Groups. Things like that are what's needed.
@nanfoodle i think every faction did the aoe tactics like that as it was meta. Especially on the doors with rams and near the boss rooms for the castles and relic keeps. There were lots of servers where Albion Realm outnumbered the Hibernians and Midguard haha. Such a great game (especially for its time), frontier RvR was great
Darkness falls got interesting past the cross roads with multiple raid groups from different realms colliding.
My point is more about PvP games have not given us tools to deal with ball groups since DAoC. ESO had a set that did but quickly got nerfed into the ground. I hope Ashes gives us tools to do just that, small groups with skills and tactics, to take out ball groups.
player collision and flagging systems other than resource management and some physics.
None of what you mentioned helps deal with Ball Groups. Set bonis that makes AoE do more damage the larager the group you hit. Larger a group is, the larger number of people opposing armies AoE can hit. CC's that break up a Ball Groups. Things like that are what's needed.
it does help actually.
Been PvPing since DAoC launch, played GW2 and ESO PvP battle grounds for many, many years. In my experience, this things you mentioned have never put an end to any ball group. Please elaborate how you have used these tool to do so and I what game? Thanks
Pulls are a big no, no. God, imagine how annoying if the enemy just pulls you into their ball and annihilates you, without any chance. How lame.
Is it because you don't use pulls ? Because I feel like pulls have a lot of potential in PvP and PvE (both for mechanics and fun enjoyers) and it is quite fun when you success in pulling someone near you. Just remember that there will always be ways to counter cc effects (example : in Guild Wars 2, some professions have Stability buffs that they can't be pulled, pushed, stunned, etc.) It is always a question of duration and cooldown for balancing. In this paragraph, I'm not saying that the one pulling you should be able to kill you by the time you can cast skills back at him. It's a crowd control skills and if other skills are so powerful that they "2 shots you", that is VERY unbalanced. People can always react to counter the CC they are against if they use their skills accordingly. For example, a ranger is attacking from range and they have skills that have mobility (like the backstep skill from the alpha preview) so they can always get in range fast. Of course if they time that skill accordingly. Knowledge of other classes is very handful for this, because you will know which skill they have so you will save your Cc cleanse skills for when they use CC effects against you.
I'll say and always repeat : Guild Wars 2 has AWESOME mechanics and combat. More games should take their ideas from time to time, because it makes the game fun and enjoyeable.
@nanfoodle i think every faction did the aoe tactics like that as it was meta. Especially on the doors with rams and near the boss rooms for the castles and relic keeps. There were lots of servers where Albion Realm outnumbered the Hibernians and Midguard haha. Such a great game (especially for its time), frontier RvR was great
Darkness falls got interesting past the cross roads with multiple raid groups from different realms colliding.
My point is more about PvP games have not given us tools to deal with ball groups since DAoC. ESO had a set that did but quickly got nerfed into the ground. I hope Ashes gives us tools to do just that, small groups with skills and tactics, to take out ball groups.
player collision and flagging systems other than resource management and some physics.
None of what you mentioned helps deal with Ball Groups. Set bonis that makes AoE do more damage the larager the group you hit. Larger a group is, the larger number of people opposing armies AoE can hit. CC's that break up a Ball Groups. Things like that are what's needed.
it does help actually.
Been PvPing since DAoC launch, played GW2 and ESO PvP battle grounds for many, many years. In my experience, this things you mentioned have never put an end to any ball group. Please elaborate how you have used these tool to do so and I what game? Thanks
Are you for real or you wasting my time?
Elaborating on collision vs no collision is pointless. I hope you can figure that one out but... it forces players to spread out but also the risk of friendly fire due to flagging. It's not a faction based game.
Dislike
- Scheduled sieges, but I understand why they are doing it.
- Macros and addons. Its a pain in the ass to set them up and it kills the mystery of the game mechanics. Not to mention they are not new player friendly.
@nanfoodle i think every faction did the aoe tactics like that as it was meta. Especially on the doors with rams and near the boss rooms for the castles and relic keeps. There were lots of servers where Albion Realm outnumbered the Hibernians and Midguard haha. Such a great game (especially for its time), frontier RvR was great
Darkness falls got interesting past the cross roads with multiple raid groups from different realms colliding.
My point is more about PvP games have not given us tools to deal with ball groups since DAoC. ESO had a set that did but quickly got nerfed into the ground. I hope Ashes gives us tools to do just that, small groups with skills and tactics, to take out ball groups.
player collision and flagging systems other than resource management and some physics.
None of what you mentioned helps deal with Ball Groups. Set bonis that makes AoE do more damage the larager the group you hit. Larger a group is, the larger number of people opposing armies AoE can hit. CC's that break up a Ball Groups. Things like that are what's needed.
it does help actually.
Been PvPing since DAoC launch, played GW2 and ESO PvP battle grounds for many, many years. In my experience, this things you mentioned have never put an end to any ball group. Please elaborate how you have used these tool to do so and I what game? Thanks
Are you for real or you wasting my time?
Elaborating on collision vs no collision is pointless. I hope you can figure that one out but... it forces players to spread out but also the risk of friendly fire due to flagging. It's not a faction based game.
Maybe you don't know what a ball group is? Because collision helps ball groups.
@nanfoodle i think every faction did the aoe tactics like that as it was meta. Especially on the doors with rams and near the boss rooms for the castles and relic keeps. There were lots of servers where Albion Realm outnumbered the Hibernians and Midguard haha. Such a great game (especially for its time), frontier RvR was great
Darkness falls got interesting past the cross roads with multiple raid groups from different realms colliding.
My point is more about PvP games have not given us tools to deal with ball groups since DAoC. ESO had a set that did but quickly got nerfed into the ground. I hope Ashes gives us tools to do just that, small groups with skills and tactics, to take out ball groups.
player collision and flagging systems other than resource management and some physics.
None of what you mentioned helps deal with Ball Groups. Set bonis that makes AoE do more damage the larager the group you hit. Larger a group is, the larger number of people opposing armies AoE can hit. CC's that break up a Ball Groups. Things like that are what's needed.
it does help actually.
Been PvPing since DAoC launch, played GW2 and ESO PvP battle grounds for many, many years. In my experience, this things you mentioned have never put an end to any ball group. Please elaborate how you have used these tool to do so and I what game? Thanks
Are you for real or you wasting my time?
Elaborating on collision vs no collision is pointless. I hope you can figure that one out but... it forces players to spread out but also the risk of friendly fire due to flagging. It's not a faction based game.
Maybe you don't know what a ball group is? Because collision helps ball groups.
@nanfoodle i think every faction did the aoe tactics like that as it was meta. Especially on the doors with rams and near the boss rooms for the castles and relic keeps. There were lots of servers where Albion Realm outnumbered the Hibernians and Midguard haha. Such a great game (especially for its time), frontier RvR was great
Darkness falls got interesting past the cross roads with multiple raid groups from different realms colliding.
My point is more about PvP games have not given us tools to deal with ball groups since DAoC. ESO had a set that did but quickly got nerfed into the ground. I hope Ashes gives us tools to do just that, small groups with skills and tactics, to take out ball groups.
player collision and flagging systems other than resource management and some physics.
None of what you mentioned helps deal with Ball Groups. Set bonis that makes AoE do more damage the larager the group you hit. Larger a group is, the larger number of people opposing armies AoE can hit. CC's that break up a Ball Groups. Things like that are what's needed.
it does help actually.
Been PvPing since DAoC launch, played GW2 and ESO PvP battle grounds for many, many years. In my experience, this things you mentioned have never put an end to any ball group. Please elaborate how you have used these tool to do so and I what game? Thanks
Are you for real or you wasting my time?
Elaborating on collision vs no collision is pointless. I hope you can figure that one out but... it forces players to spread out but also the risk of friendly fire due to flagging. It's not a faction based game.
Maybe you don't know what a ball group is? Because collision helps ball groups.
... #5 Congratulations...
Again I ask, how have you seen collision used to overcome a ball group? Your the one who said that's one of the uses. I am 100% curious. I'm not picking a fight or trying to make fun. It's a real question.
Maybe you don't know what a ball group is? Because collision helps ball groups.
I don't know what it is. How exactly does collision help them? If there's no collision, the theoretical amount of people in one aoe is unlimited. If there is collision - there's a limit on how many people you can hit.
So what exactly do "ball groups" do that collision helps them?
Maybe you don't know what a ball group is? Because collision helps ball groups.
I don't know what it is. How exactly does collision help them? If there's no collision, the theoretical amount of people in one aoe is unlimited. If there is collision - there's a limit on how many people you can hit.
So what exactly do "ball groups" do that collision helps them?
Maybe you don't know what a ball group is? Because collision helps ball groups.
I don't know what it is. How exactly does collision help them? If there's no collision, the theoretical amount of people in one aoe is unlimited. If there is collision - there's a limit on how many people you can hit.
So what exactly do "ball groups" do that collision helps them?
They group up with AoE heals and AoE damage. The run like a train running over everyone. Often they are a large number of players and they keep their movement tight so you can't pick them off as stragglers. Seen it done in DAoA with some effect but there were many tools to deal with large numbers.
GW2 same thing. Now ESO the way the skill system worked. They were almost always unstoppable. Ashes skill system is an known but does remind me in one way. Just the sear number of ways to spec.
As far as Collision goes, you didn't want to get pinned down when a ball group was heading your way. If they pinned down yoh or your group, you were dead. ESO gave us some tools to deal with them and then they nurfed them. Was a problem for the last year of my time in ESO and one of the reasons I cancelled my sub. I just checked youtube and there is still info up on how to make ball groups.
As far as Collision goes, you didn't want to get pinned down when a ball group was heading your way. If they pinned down yoh or your group, you were dead.
What do you mean by "pinned down"? They would assist-hit you, if you got stuck on some people? Or do you mean that they would aoe hit your group that is somehow smaller than their group, so you can't just hit them with your own aoes?
I still don't see how collision helps a group of people to stay in their own aoes, while avoiding being hit by enemy aoes, WHILE using their own aoes to hit other people.
A "ball" supposes a tight formation, so the chances are - the ball group would have more people in any given aoe than any other random collection of people just running around the battlefield. Which then means that using aoes against this group is already more beneficial.
The only thing that truly helps ball groups is stacking aoe heals/buffs. Everything else works against them. And I definitely agree that Ashes shouldn't have stacking aoe heals. Hell, make that shit cost more if you have more than one cleric-related class in your party. This would not only push people to avoid "everyone's a healer" party builds, but also prevent these so called ball groups from being too effective.
As far as Collision goes, you didn't want to get pinned down when a ball group was heading your way. If they pinned down yoh or your group, you were dead.
What do you mean by "pinned down"? They would assist-hit you, if you got stuck on some people? Or do you mean that they would aoe hit your group that is somehow smaller than their group, so you can't just hit them with your own aoes?
I still don't see how collision helps a group of people to stay in their own aoes, while avoiding being hit by enemy aoes, WHILE using their own aoes to hit other people.
A "ball" supposes a tight formation, so the chances are - the ball group would have more people in any given aoe than any other random collection of people just running around the battlefield. Which then means that using aoes against this group is already more beneficial.
The only thing that truly helps ball groups is stacking aoe heals/buffs. Everything else works against them. And I definitely agree that Ashes shouldn't have stacking aoe heals. Hell, make that shit cost more if you have more than one cleric-related class in your party. This would not only push people to avoid "everyone's a healer" party builds, but also prevent these so called ball groups from being too effective.
ESO is a 3 faction war. I have been pinned down as my faction and an opposing faction were trying to feel the ball group, and running away didn't work as the opposing faction that was fleeing as well, slowed you down with Collision and we did the same to them and dead. Or the ball group would pin you down in a confined area and the only option was to die.
Was a pain enjoying a great battle and a ball group would show up and just take out swaths of players and just move on to show up somewhere else. I have seen two factions working together, fail in taking out a ball group.
Comments
You are very right about MOBAs being a set arena vs MMOs being completely open.
I've always thought the best way to handle stealth in open world pvp is to have multiple tiers of stealth based on the class, spec, and damage potential of the stealther. It needs to be easy enough to see at the low end of the stealth spectrum, but if a player chooses to invest in only stealth it should be countered by someone less invested to disincentivize full dedication to stealth.
Hopefully ashes let's stealthers be fun for those that like that gameplay, but not oppressively unfun for the rest of us. No one wants to see the opening from stealth take 50% + add a hard stun.
Example if my stun lasts 2 seconds and has a 45 second coldown, I won't be so keen on using it to open up on an enemy. I may safe it to use as an interupt or way of getting off a quick heal. Now.. if my stun lasts 3 seconds and has no cooldown but the DR mechanic and then i have another stun that lasts 6 seconds on a 30 second cooldown and I have a disorientate that lasts 9 seconds, an interupt with a 10 sec cd and a 3 second school lockout AND another disorientate that lasts 4 seconds.............. welcome to world of warcraft i just explained to you pvp rogue style. Where if your opponent can fight back, you did something wrong because you can always just poof vanish and start it all over again.
Guild wars 2 did this correctly. I don't recall any stun or fear lasting more than a couple seconds and often they had super long cooldowns and could be negated or broken quite easily. Binds and slows were rare and slows often aoe oriented so you could walk out of them and they had to be properly placed.
But imagine a 9 second slow, off cooldown, low mana cost and no DR... topple that with a 9 second fear off cooldown, oh and a 2 second disorientate oh and a aoe insta cast fear just incase... OH AND A PET THAT CAN DISORIENTATE YOU 9 SECONDS NO COOLDOWN... Hello world of warcraft warlock.
Again CC needs to be EXTREMELY rare or VERY short lived. Even typing the stuff above got me agitated, I don't play anymore but even typing it i have to say to myself... what were those thunder heads thinking? How does that get through testing stages?
Id disagree.
Without cc chains the game turns into burst or spam. Games like Warhammer online suffer immensely from the way they have cc immunity and very little access to hard cc.
Id rather see multiple ways for individuals and classes to cleanse cc. More things like skull of impending doom and blessing of protection. Bards, clerics, summoners, and tanks should have saves to help alleviate the cc chains outside of the typical 2min cc cleanse.
Line of Sight
- ability to use terrain to dodge / hide (especially in sieges, and ravine fighting)
- clear line of sight to shoot / fire as a requirement
Height Advantage
- elevation giving further missile range and increased power
Terrain
- terrain that actually can permit a player to hide such as tall grasses or shrubs but still allow a player to see out.
Front vs Back Damage
- like the idea that your position of attack matters ie frontal attack less powerful than a back attack (mob or player)
Darkness
- true dark areas for hiding
Environmental Impact
- cold spells on ice enhanced, cold spells on hot surfaces reduced
- hot spells on ice or water surfaces reduced, hot spells on hot surfaces enhanced
Rag doll physics
- especially enjoy rag doll effects in pvp and sometimes to taunt a player further by moving their dead character
-
Mechanics not so keen on:
Character outfits / gear
- outfits and/or gear that do not cannot readily identify level / ability
Spells / Missile path
- lobbed or straight missiles are ok, but those that bend round obstacles or through them, not so keen.
Heal pots
- ability to spam heal pots faster than incoming damage
- Depth
- Physics
- Awareness
- Skill
- Genuine Strategy and Tactical
- High Difficulty
Dislike
- button mashing
- sponge combat
- burst dependency
- hard CC spam
- easy game play
I do not waste my time with a lot of video games these days to be honest. I know what I like and what I dont. I'm not someone who just games for the sake of gaming. They're either too easy or the skill cap ceiling is too low that I outpace it quite quickly. Easy is not fun, it's boring and remedial for someone like me. I know myself quite well and know how fast I can get bored of video games if they're not engaging or challenging enough. Player vs Player can have fluctuating engagements, no surprise there but there's a significant difference when it comes to a feeling of accomplishment. Knowing you won because of your skill vs a game making everyone feel like winners is two different things completely. I would rather lose because of my personal skill issue vs some bullshit design making me feel like a winner.
Yes but guild wars 2 did it right imo, i don't mind CC being integrated and it will obviously always be HUGE even if its a 2 second stun.. 2 seconds in pvp is a lifetime. Games that go into the 5+ second range are out of control. Things like knockdowns and pushback are also great options. It doesn't always have to be about chaining CC just rather actually having to use it correctly. Trinkets in WoW shouldof always had a 45 sec cd, 2 mins in a game run and controlled by CC spam is inexcusable, as some classes have no options to break or otherwise grant immunity to CC.
I played swtor and CC was out of control, alot of pvpers quit at the beginning due to it being so unapologetically toxic. I played a few rounds of pvp, kept dying while stunlocked or incapacitated and instantly uninstalled and unsubbed. Never looked back, as did most of their population apparently. There is a sweet middleground that guild wars 2 perfected and should be looked at for inspiration.
-Varied Damage, I really love Windfury from WoW in terms of that it was not bursty but it was a constant barrage of damage. Same applies for Tornadoes in Diablo.
-Survivability
-Determinism
-A use of skills, angles, precision, positioning etc always makes a fight better
I dislike
-output rng, Active defensives done well will always be superior.
-skill bloat, more skills do not mean there’s more decisions, statistics will always make abilities definitive
stealth pvp and preperation - different buffs - potions (maybe a stealth detect potion before fighting another Stealth Class)
I also really like a good use of Ultimate Skillshots that deal a high amout of Damage but you have to use it at the right moment with a good aim.
I dislike: (I played ff14 pvp it was really bad)
Stacking stuns: in ff14 stuns will stack and at some point you cant even do anything until you die because there are too many stuns in a row.
Too many ways to heal up: I really hate how in wow every single class has somekind of recovery or heal nowadays - you think you nearly killed your opponent? no! he has 17 ways to heal up to full health again.
was really annoying and made fights way too long.
Stealth.
The ability to stealth is fun and adds to excitement and tension in Open World PvP. To make it fun and fair you need:
A) Classes that can move around in stealth freely.
C) All classes having the ability to Search/Detect and pop people out of stealth nearby.
Few things are more exciting than standing on your World PvP rock waiting for the enemy, having a suspicion, popping Search and revealing the enemies who slowly tried to sneak up on you. Thats fun.
Reactive "skillful" gameplay.
I loved playing the Conqueror in Age of Conan. In PvE it was like any other soldier class. You stand still and do combos. But the class had some abilities that made it very reactive and fun to play in PvP. There was for instance and ability that you popped and halved the next incoming damage. That meant you had a great reactive payout if you could read the enemy classes and knew when a big nuke cast was coming. Felt great when you managed to do it, sending those tryhard DPSers crying.
High Mobility
Not backflips and barrel rolls for days, but its a lot more fun if the combat is moving. Charges, blinks and whatnot sounds a lot more fun than just two balls AoEing eachother.
Me no likey:
Stunlocks.
Noone likes getting stunlocks. I like MMO tab combat where you got short CCs, CC immunities and medium long cooldowns. In my mind CCs shouldnt be the opening or the main way to open up to deal damage, but to deny the enemy, obstructing, interrupting combos and build-ups et cetera.
Dont mind stuns, knockbacks, traps at all, but lesser ranged and AoE the better. The more up close and personal the better, where you got options to interrupt et cetera. For instance, you charging the ranger and getting rooted in a trap is all on you. A mage AoE stunning half the party from a range for 10 secs is just boring and lame.
Pulls are a big no, no. God, imagine how annoying if the enemy just pulls you into their ball and annihilates you, without any chance. How lame.
One shot mechanics, stealthing in and out without being able to be attacked, etc.... I do not see as good gameplay.... Nor do I see someone being in plate and unable to be hurt good gameplay.
If I attack someone, I expect it to be a duel that can last minutes at a time! Not a scenario of run by them and kill them in 20 seconds to then run off to the next person... might as well just do pve and kill npc at that point.
EVERY CLASS should be a THREAT to EVERY CLASS. Maybe not balanced per-se, but each class should have abilities that makes any class kind of worried that their opponent may use those abilities. Making it a challenging fight. None of this "Warrior can just go crush a Monk, Mage can melt a Hunter in 2 seconds, Paladins can't really attack but just defend for hours" type rubbish.
We have weapons and abilities.... let there be some actual thought in how they will interact with each other and create fun gameplay.
Fear skills essentially force one to move in generally irrelevant ways, as opposed to incapacitation (of some sort) in place -- yeah, that sucks as a mechanic.
Inevitably everyone displays fear at certain points in-game: running away from a larger group or an opponent against which you'd prove ill-equipped, or periodically dashing for some kind of safety to recuperate.
So hey! No need to add it as a skill, it's already going to be in the game!
x0x0
LFG: Open World, tight knit coordination, multiple roles, will travel.
Once we had a force hunting us that was nothing we could take on. We would execute the tactics we planned. We would leave a small force to defend a keep while the bulk of our force would move to a near by keep and stay hidden and waiting. When the large force went to retake the keep we left a small contingent to defend. We would take the keep that we were hiding near by at.
The large force in short order would take back the keep and see the message that a near by keep was being seiged. Every AoE class we had would stay ducked down and hiding at the top of the stairs by the NPC you needed to kill to reclaim the keep.
The opposing force after a quick win would come flooding, unthinking come to reclaim the keep we were hiding in wait. With a few defenders at the gate of the keep. As the gate came down, they would chase the defenders up the stairs.
As the defenders came running into the room. We would start AoEing. Our small army of 40 to 50 players would take out 200+ players within 2 to 3 min.
The machinic I miss is tactics and skills that small groups could use to take out a superior forces. I hope Ashes has this. I have to admit this is a feeling I have been chasing for 20 years.
Darkness falls got interesting past the cross roads with multiple raid groups from different realms colliding.
My point is more about PvP games have not given us tools to deal with ball groups since DAoC. ESO had a set that did but quickly got nerfed into the ground. I hope Ashes gives us tools to do just that, small groups with skills and tactics, to take out ball groups.
player collision and flagging systems other than resource management and some physics.
None of what you mentioned helps deal with Ball Groups. Set bonis that makes AoE do more damage the larager the group you hit. Larger a group is, the larger number of people opposing armies AoE can hit. CC's that break up a Ball Groups. Things like that are what's needed.
it does help actually.
Been PvPing since DAoC launch, played GW2 and ESO PvP battle grounds for many, many years. In my experience, this things you mentioned have never put an end to any ball group. Please elaborate how you have used these tool to do so and I what game? Thanks
Is it because you don't use pulls ? Because I feel like pulls have a lot of potential in PvP and PvE (both for mechanics and fun enjoyers) and it is quite fun when you success in pulling someone near you. Just remember that there will always be ways to counter cc effects (example : in Guild Wars 2, some professions have Stability buffs that they can't be pulled, pushed, stunned, etc.) It is always a question of duration and cooldown for balancing. In this paragraph, I'm not saying that the one pulling you should be able to kill you by the time you can cast skills back at him. It's a crowd control skills and if other skills are so powerful that they "2 shots you", that is VERY unbalanced. People can always react to counter the CC they are against if they use their skills accordingly. For example, a ranger is attacking from range and they have skills that have mobility (like the backstep skill from the alpha preview) so they can always get in range fast. Of course if they time that skill accordingly. Knowledge of other classes is very handful for this, because you will know which skill they have so you will save your Cc cleanse skills for when they use CC effects against you.
I'll say and always repeat : Guild Wars 2 has AWESOME mechanics and combat. More games should take their ideas from time to time, because it makes the game fun and enjoyeable.
Are you for real or you wasting my time?
Elaborating on collision vs no collision is pointless. I hope you can figure that one out but... it forces players to spread out but also the risk of friendly fire due to flagging. It's not a faction based game.
-PvP ratings and rankings
-Arenas
Dislike
- Scheduled sieges, but I understand why they are doing it.
- Macros and addons. Its a pain in the ass to set them up and it kills the mystery of the game mechanics. Not to mention they are not new player friendly.
Maybe you don't know what a ball group is? Because collision helps ball groups.
... #5 Congratulations...
Again I ask, how have you seen collision used to overcome a ball group? Your the one who said that's one of the uses. I am 100% curious. I'm not picking a fight or trying to make fun. It's a real question.
So what exactly do "ball groups" do that collision helps them?
i know that collision to some degree nerfs aoes
They group up with AoE heals and AoE damage. The run like a train running over everyone. Often they are a large number of players and they keep their movement tight so you can't pick them off as stragglers. Seen it done in DAoA with some effect but there were many tools to deal with large numbers.
GW2 same thing. Now ESO the way the skill system worked. They were almost always unstoppable. Ashes skill system is an known but does remind me in one way. Just the sear number of ways to spec.
As far as Collision goes, you didn't want to get pinned down when a ball group was heading your way. If they pinned down yoh or your group, you were dead. ESO gave us some tools to deal with them and then they nurfed them. Was a problem for the last year of my time in ESO and one of the reasons I cancelled my sub. I just checked youtube and there is still info up on how to make ball groups.
My hope this never becomes a thing in Ashes.
I still don't see how collision helps a group of people to stay in their own aoes, while avoiding being hit by enemy aoes, WHILE using their own aoes to hit other people.
A "ball" supposes a tight formation, so the chances are - the ball group would have more people in any given aoe than any other random collection of people just running around the battlefield. Which then means that using aoes against this group is already more beneficial.
The only thing that truly helps ball groups is stacking aoe heals/buffs. Everything else works against them. And I definitely agree that Ashes shouldn't have stacking aoe heals. Hell, make that shit cost more if you have more than one cleric-related class in your party. This would not only push people to avoid "everyone's a healer" party builds, but also prevent these so called ball groups from being too effective.
ESO is a 3 faction war. I have been pinned down as my faction and an opposing faction were trying to feel the ball group, and running away didn't work as the opposing faction that was fleeing as well, slowed you down with Collision and we did the same to them and dead. Or the ball group would pin you down in a confined area and the only option was to die.
Was a pain enjoying a great battle and a ball group would show up and just take out swaths of players and just move on to show up somewhere else. I have seen two factions working together, fail in taking out a ball group.