Combat movement skill options seems lacking so far

I've watched most of the class spotlights so far at the moment I have seen a lack of movement that somewhat worries me.
For context my largest backgrounds in MMOs is Guild Wars 2 and Black Desert.

Getting it out of the way I firmly believe that Black Desert's combat doesn't work in an MASSIVELY multiplayer setting, at all. It's too fast and too dashy to be anything more than a bomb-fest in large-scale content (I'm of course dramatically summarising BDO's game state but whatever) - I don't want BDO v2 in Ashes.

However, Guild Wars 2 has a similar combat system, toggleable action targeting for example, but alongside also has a plethora of movement even at early levels. I mention early levels as I take what has been show so far as skills acquired on the journey to level 30 (I recall hearing this is alpha 2 cap?) I can recall 3 that have stuck with me:

Fighter's Charge
Mage's Blink
Rangers Jumpy Jump Thing (YEP)

Which put's us at like 3 for 60+ skills and that worries me. Please let me know if I missed any.

I'll happily accept the 'focus on core identity skills of XYZ for now' and the 'We'll get to it' mindset but I didn't see anything focusing on this particular thought with a quick search (I was lazy...)

I very much hope that sometime soon I am proved wrong as at the moment It's coming a bit too close to a medieval war sim than a fantasy MMO in this particular context.

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arsnn

Hm, i dont share the concerns.

We havent seen the most mobile class, which apparantly is the fighter.

All the class kits we have seen were rather unfinished, thats especially the case for the tank and mage.
I count 6 mobility abilities, for roughly 50 abilites in total.
The ranger has 2 different mobility abilities, airstrike and disengage, + the cd reset ability that may give the player the option to dash twice. We also havent seen the ranger´s basic roll, which might be the dash that was teased in the crafting showcase. That makes it 3, for 20 abilities if you want to count the 9 buffs (Marks, hunts and the imbued arrows).
The tank has 1 dashy ability, for like 8 abilities.
The mage has 1 dashy ability for like 10 abilities.
The cleric has 1 dashy ability for like 12 abilities.
Looking at their respective class identities it makes sense imo. Though i´d be nice if could spec into a more mobile version of those classes, sacrificing other strength´s.

Hopefully the current reluctance for more mobility, is part of their broader design approach for large scale combat and not just a "we like it oldschool".

Lafi

arsnn wrote: »

We havent seen the most mobile class, which apparently is the fighter.

A very fair point, especially given the that, unlike the archer, we have yet to see the next iteration stage.
My expectation is that the rogue would also be swift footed also and we have yet to see anything at all regarding that class kit.

arsnn wrote: »

I count 6 mobility abilities, for roughly 50 abilites in total.
The ranger has 2 different mobility abilities, airstrike and disengage, + the cd reset ability that may give the player the option to dash twice. We also havent seen the ranger´s basic roll, which might be the dash that was teased in the crafting showcase. That makes it 3, for 20 abilities if you want to count the 9 buffs (Marks, hunts and the imbued arrows).
The tank has 1 dashy ability, for like 8 abilities.
The mage has 1 dashy ability for like 10 abilities.
The cleric has 1 dashy ability for like 12 abilities.

I completely forgot the cleric's target dash to be honest yeah.
I had an expectation that I'd miss some as I didn't browse the wiki etc prior was more a food thought, but thank you either way!

arsnn wrote: »

Looking at their respective class identities it makes sense imo. Though i´d be nice if could spec into a more mobile version of those classes, sacrificing other strength´s.

With how mobile the Archer currently is, if there isn't a class that can chase it then it's going to be VERY strong in a PvP scenario of any scale. So perhaps your thought towards fighter and my own on rogue will answer these sorts of situational questions also.

Definitely agree with a sacrificial style for obtaining mobility, for example the Mage being able to turn Blink into a Ammo-style skill with a recharge time per charge in exchange for say distanced travelled.

I think further thought on that is somewhat blocked until the scale of the skill tree as well as class augments have more detailed information shared.

arsnn wrote: »

Hopefully the current reluctance for more mobility, is part of their broader design approach for large scale combat and not just a "we like it oldschool".

Yeah I think that is a very important side that I think should be cleared up. Will try throwing the question into the usual stream Q&As and maybe I'll get an answer before A2 starts.

Vyril

arsnn wrote: »

We havent seen the most mobile class, which apparantly is the fighter.

It's not the fighter, but the rogue, quoted from the Ranger Showcase.

https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxwK-W9mEZr8ZNtbMlvzuYcH_XuWoKclIx

Lafi

Vyril wrote: »

arsnn wrote: »

We havent seen the most mobile class, which apparantly is the fighter.

It's not the fighter, but the rogue, quoted from the Ranger Showcase.

Yeah, that's what makes sense to me.
Though I guess the Archer needs enough mobility to avoid getting bombed by everyone else I wonder if 2nd best mobility is too high in a 'tier-list' but we'll see.

Mag7spy

Lafi wrote: »

Vyril wrote: »

arsnn wrote: »

We havent seen the most mobile class, which apparantly is the fighter.

It's not the fighter, but the rogue, quoted from the Ranger Showcase.

Yeah, that's what makes sense to me.
Though I guess the Archer needs enough mobility to avoid getting bombed by everyone else I wonder if 2nd best mobility is too high in a 'tier-list' but we'll see.

Having mobility doesn't mean classes can never catch it. They will have more ways to get away and more time to avoid dmg but will still be hit. That is how they are balancing it out since it will be more of a glass cannon. Meaning when they are getting hit, it is a much higher danger.

Dygz

Lacking because it's not even Alpha 2 yet.

Dezemi

Vyril wrote: »

arsnn wrote: »

We havent seen the most mobile class, which apparantly is the fighter.

It's not the fighter, but the rogue, quoted from the Ranger Showcase.

https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxwK-W9mEZr8ZNtbMlvzuYcH_XuWoKclIx

I do remember someone mentioning in another discussion that Steven corrected this statement in media later; that fighters were intended to be the highest mobility class - not rogues. (I cannot confirm though as I never fact-checked the statement!)

Lafi

I guess rogue loses mobility in exchange for stealth is their thoughts. We shall see what happens.
Doesn't make too much sense to me as a buff muscle man doesn't scream agility/dexterous movement though. Combat footwork, sure sure.

It's a fantasy game though.

Enigmatic Sage

Lafi wrote: »

I guess rogue loses mobility in exchange for stealth is their thoughts. We shall see what happens.
Doesn't make too much sense to me as a buff muscle man doesn't scream agility/dexterous movement though. Combat footwork, sure sure.

It's a fantasy game though.

Stealth is just one utility option. Rogue's will have their own mobility options in comparison to the fighters mobility. Just like their combat abilities will be unique to their identity regardless of how similar they are fundamentally perceptively.

Voeltz

Ranged classes have to be slower than melee otherwise they can never be caught in PvP. Ranged classes start the fight out of range of melee, forcing them to use movement skills to get in range but ranged just uses theirs to create distance again. So if ranged and melee have equal movement capabilities, ranged can keep themselves at a distance consistently preventing damage to themselves while continuing to use their damage ultimately winning the fight. That's why most MMOs ranged is considered superior because they have clear advantages in PvP and PvE. Sit out of range of a bosses abilities while putting out full dmg, makes it easier on the tank and Healer as well. In PvP sit on top of terrain like a wall during a castle siege and barrage enemies below you while the melee can't touch you.

Fighters and rogues should be equally fast (rogues have stealth, fighters have more CC)
Then
Rangers and Mages
Then
Supports and Tanks

Dygz

I mean... it's R-P-S...
Which means even if melee can't catch up, there will be another category that can.
Also, any melee Primary Archetype can also be a "ranged class" via the wide variety of Augment categories.

Also, any class can use any weapon, so a Tank could also wield a Bow or a Wand.

Depraved

Dygz wrote: »

I mean... it's R-P-S...
Which means even if melee can't catch up, there will be another category that can.
Also, any melee Primary Archetype can also be a "ranged class" via the wide variety of Augment categories.

Also, any class can use any weapon, so a Tank could also wield a Bow or a Wand.

tanks in l2 could use a bow and kill an archer xD
anyways i doubt any archetype will be as good with a bow as a ranger in mass pvp. dont care too much about 1v1

Azherae

Depraved wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

I mean... it's R-P-S...
Which means even if melee can't catch up, there will be another category that can.
Also, any melee Primary Archetype can also be a "ranged class" via the wide variety of Augment categories.

Also, any class can use any weapon, so a Tank could also wield a Bow or a Wand.

tanks in l2 could use a bow and kill an archer xD
anyways i doubt any archetype will be as good with a bow as a ranger in mass pvp. dont care too much about 1v1

The purpose of the Tank using the Bow in this case would be to support their Fighter or Rogue in killing the Ranger while the Ranger is in mobile combat with the Rogue.

The ability for any class to use any weapon, particularly for Supports and Tanks to use long range attacks in this situation, is very important and fits perfectly into Ashes' class and Synergy design.

It's not like Dygz said 'I think Tanks will win long range duels with rangers'.

Depraved

Azherae wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Dygz wrote: »

I mean... it's R-P-S...
Which means even if melee can't catch up, there will be another category that can.
Also, any melee Primary Archetype can also be a "ranged class" via the wide variety of Augment categories.

Also, any class can use any weapon, so a Tank could also wield a Bow or a Wand.

tanks in l2 could use a bow and kill an archer xD
anyways i doubt any archetype will be as good with a bow as a ranger in mass pvp. dont care too much about 1v1

The purpose of the Tank using the Bow in this case would be to support their Fighter or Rogue in killing the Ranger while the Ranger is in mobile combat with the Rogue.

The ability for any class to use any weapon, particularly for Supports and Tanks to use long range attacks in this situation, is very important and fits perfectly into Ashes' class and Synergy design.

It's not like Dygz said 'I think Tanks will win long range duels with rangers'.

i dont disagree with that. but also tank vs ranger, it depends on the skills. tanks in l2 were made to not die from archers. imagine you have the highest attack in the game then you hit a tank with a crit and do 10 damage lol, but then you 2 shot mages xD

the paladin in ragnarok was also made to not die from archers.

anyways it could be that the ranged (physical) damage from anything that isnt a ranger would be irrelevant...that depends on the game.

Vyril

arsnn wrote: »

We havent seen the most mobile class, which apparantly is the fighter.

It's not the fighter, but the rogue, quoted from the Ranger Showcase.

Dezmerizing wrote: »

Vyril wrote: »

arsnn wrote: »

We havent seen the most mobile class, which apparantly is the fighter.

It's not the fighter, but the rogue, quoted from the Ranger Showcase.

https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxwK-W9mEZr8ZNtbMlvzuYcH_XuWoKclIx

I do remember someone mentioning in another discussion that Steven corrected this statement in media later; that fighters were intended to be the highest mobility class - not rogues. (I cannot confirm though as I never fact-checked the statement!)

So the best I can find Steven talking on the Fighter is 2021, but doesn't say anything about where they stand in the tier of mobility. I couldn't find any quotes in discord talking on the matter.

The fighter is really a mobile physical DPS. So they're able to traverse the battlefield. They're able to close the gap quickly. They're able to deal damage from a physical perspective... The fighter is in your face. You try to get away from me I'm going to close that gap. I'm going to deal this burst damage to you and it really doesn't matter if I'm behind you or if you're bleeding or if I've snared you per-se. I am there. I am in your face. I'm doing this damage.[5] – Steven Sharif

In the same clip he talks about the rogue not being as mobile, but that's been over 2 years. It has seemingly has changed, otherwise it would be nice to know where the correction is.

Dygz

Vyril wrote: »

arsnn wrote: »

We havent seen the most mobile class, which apparantly is the fighter.

It's not the fighter, but the rogue, quoted from the Ranger Showcase.

Dezmerizing wrote: »

Vyril wrote: »

arsnn wrote: »

We havent seen the most mobile class, which apparantly is the fighter.

It's not the fighter, but the rogue, quoted from the Ranger Showcase.

https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxwK-W9mEZr8ZNtbMlvzuYcH_XuWoKclIx

I do remember someone mentioning in another discussion that Steven corrected this statement in media later; that fighters were intended to be the highest mobility class - not rogues. (I cannot confirm though as I never fact-checked the statement!)

So the best I can find Steven talking on the Fighter is 2021, but doesn't say anything about where they stand in the tier of mobility. I couldn't find any quotes in discord talking on the matter.

The fighter is really a mobile physical DPS. So they're able to traverse the battlefield. They're able to close the gap quickly. They're able to deal damage from a physical perspective... The fighter is in your face. You try to get away from me I'm going to close that gap. I'm going to deal this burst damage to you and it really doesn't matter if I'm behind you or if you're bleeding or if I've snared you per-se. I am there. I am in your face. I'm doing this damage.[5] – Steven Sharif

In the same clip he talks about the rogue not being as mobile, but that's been over 2 years. It has seemingly has changed, otherwise it would be nice to know where the correction is.

Seems unlikely that, "corrected in media later" means an earlier quote.

Dygz

Voeltz wrote: »

So if ranged and melee have equal movement capabilities, ranged can keep themselves at a distance consistently preventing damage to themselves while continuing to use their damage ultimately winning the fight.

Depraved wrote: »

tanks in l2 could use a bow and kill an archer xD
anyways i doubt any archetype will be as good with a bow as a ranger in mass pvp. dont care too much about 1v1

Doesn't have to be as good with a Bow as a Primary Archetype Ranger - just needs to be ranged enough for the melee Primary Archetype to attack/effect an opponent at range.
And... we can expect ranged attacks from a Tank/Ranger to be signifcant, rather than irrelevant.

Dimitraeos

As much as I enjoyed many aspects of how BDO's combat felt, the absurd movement and borderline teleporting that it turned into in the last several years when they began releasing awakening weapons etc was pretty silly in my opinion. I think I now prefer something a *little* more grounded. Honestly even pre-awakening era BDO was good in that regard.

I really hope Ashes combat doesn't turn into a turbo, dragon ball z-esque, anime type of combat where everyone is just constantly zipping around. I think it would also be difficult to balance the idea of groups having more defined frontline/backline players where group cohesion goes completely out the window the moment you make contact with the enemy group.

That being said I also don't want pvp to be completely static either. Like I said, pre-awakening era BDO was a good example of a middle ground.

Azherae

Vyril wrote: »

arsnn wrote: »

We havent seen the most mobile class, which apparantly is the fighter.

It's not the fighter, but the rogue, quoted from the Ranger Showcase.

Dezmerizing wrote: »

Vyril wrote: »

arsnn wrote: »

We havent seen the most mobile class, which apparantly is the fighter.

It's not the fighter, but the rogue, quoted from the Ranger Showcase.

https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxwK-W9mEZr8ZNtbMlvzuYcH_XuWoKclIx

I do remember someone mentioning in another discussion that Steven corrected this statement in media later; that fighters were intended to be the highest mobility class - not rogues. (I cannot confirm though as I never fact-checked the statement!)

So the best I can find Steven talking on the Fighter is 2021, but doesn't say anything about where they stand in the tier of mobility. I couldn't find any quotes in discord talking on the matter.

The fighter is really a mobile physical DPS. So they're able to traverse the battlefield. They're able to close the gap quickly. They're able to deal damage from a physical perspective... The fighter is in your face. You try to get away from me I'm going to close that gap. I'm going to deal this burst damage to you and it really doesn't matter if I'm behind you or if you're bleeding or if I've snared you per-se. I am there. I am in your face. I'm doing this damage.[5] – Steven Sharif

In the same clip he talks about the rogue not being as mobile, but that's been over 2 years. It has seemingly has changed, otherwise it would be nice to know where the correction is.

If we're talking about Fighter, they're going to have a lot of heavy gap closers. They can probably be a little bit more liberal in the use of their gap closers because they have so many of them, versus let's say a Ranger that needs to choose when to use their escape abilities, because they have fewer of them. The same would be true for a melee character like a rogue. Their approach vector is going to be more stealth-driven than it would be perhaps let's say from a gap-closer perspective.[17] – Steven Sharif

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Mobility

Enigmatic Sage

@Azherae there is probably shadow steps/blinks, additional cloaking, increased evasion/dodge RNG utility, perhaps even a sprint or dash. Same shit different pile.

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